patrick.net

I can’t let this lay. That statement is categorically false; most ESOs are issued at the money, not in the money. Further, issuing of ESOs in the money, for a public company (which is the only relevance), has always resulted in a P&L expense. So this argument is invalid.

And…you never answered my question about how does one accurately value a ESO? In one exercise I did a $50 at-the-money ESO with a 5 year term, which was priced by Black-Scholes at roughly $5.00 (based on implied volatility of publicly traded equity options), would be worth less than $0.90 were you to factor in all the liquidity restrictions and legal surrender clauses.

Fine.

Why are there so many ChickenLittle’s like me on this board?

I do not know.

Why does MarinaPrime has so many screen names? Why does he call himself ChickenLittle?

I do not know.

One other point of data on stock options:

Before 1997 (I think it was 97), it was allowable for employees with large option positions to enter into OTC contracts (with their options as the asset) in an attempt to hedge their positions against dowside. This quite effeciently created a real, price-efficient market for ESOs, although it was fairly narrow. Many insiders at places like Netscape, Excite, etc. took advantage of this to either monetize or "buy insurance" against their over exposure to their own company's stock.

Very few of these hedges paid off. In the end, the cost of the hedge was more than the value of the options. This suggests that the value gained from volatility of future price movements is less than the costs of liquidity and legal constraints.

Randy H, even now, employees can in theory sell calls, but puts, or short stocks to hedge against their vested options.

On the theme of this thread, I have a reprint of the WSJ article, New Tools to Hedge Your Home if there's somewhere here I can send it, in case anyone's interested in how you'd set up a hedge using either derivatives or leverage (or both).

The reference was (for anyone who has the paper or an account):
By JAMES R. HAGERTY
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
September 17, 2005; Page B1

Proposed assumptions for new Whoreton Bay Area RE "study":

Assumption #1: Long-term annual appreciation rate = 20-30% ("at least")
Assumption #2: Pro-RE Congress soon to pass mortgage income tax CREDIT (covering 100% of mortgage interest & prop tax)
Assumption #3: Maintenance & depreciation negligible in the BA (this is Cali --"bad stuff" doesn't happen here!)
Assumption #4: "Owning" intangibles are worth a multiple of 3X rents.
Assumption #5: 1% NAAVLP "teasers" will soon go negative -- lenders will pay YOU interest to live there, turning your home into a true "ATM".

I’d also make an argument that it’s capitalism at it’s finest, when a small group of employees can start their own company and take ownership through options, and build a great company from nothing.

Fine, I agree.

---Randy H, even now, employees can in theory sell calls, but puts, or short stocks to hedge against their vested options.

For most public corporations (all that I know of), this is forbidden by your ESO and employment agreements. Further, there are explicit SEC restrictions against this for virtually all employees who'd have a big enough stake to want to really do this. Remember, equity-option premiums are very expensive and not worth it for small open-interest positions...unless you know something the market doesn't. And then, you'll be risking a much bigger problem. The SEC loves to investigate options-trades.

"Assumption #2: Pro-RE Congress soon to pass mortgage income tax CREDIT (covering 100% of mortgage interest & prop tax)"

Has this credit ever been suggested in Congress?

This would make me sick.

Remember, equity-option premiums are very expensive and not worth it for small open-interest positions…unless you know something the market doesn’t.

It used to be so expensive that it is difficult to lose selling options. Now it is quite different actually.

The market does not know the future, unless enough psychics are in the game ;) . Money is made when you are in disagreement with the market, and you turn out to be right.

test post

---Money is made when you are in disagreement with the market, and you turn out to be right.

True enough, lol. But, unless your system produces "you're right" more than "you're wrong", then you'll be at best out $0 minus the premiums, which is a net loss. And we can blame the efficiencies of the options market on Messers Black and Scholes, et. al. At least some of them are now indicted criminals due to the LTCM fiasco. "Hedge funds are evil. Long live hedge funds!"

True enough, lol. But, unless your system produces “you’re right” more than “you’re wrong”, then you’ll be at best out $0 minus the premiums, which is a net loss.

Also, "how right" and "how wrong" are important. :)

At least some of them are now indicted criminals due to the LTCM fiasco.

I thought there was no crime committed in the LTCM fiasco and most outside investors did not end up losing money.

On the theme of this thread, I have a reprint of the WSJ article, New Tools to Hedge Your Home if there’s somewhere here I can send it, in case anyone’s interested in how you’d set up a hedge using either derivatives or leverage (or both).

Was it about MACRO securities? Or was it about HedgeStreet?

Thanks.

Mainly HedgeStreet and their hedgelets. But also some interesting stuff about how you can create a sometimes safer synthetic hedge using short-term, variable financing and buying other things like TIPS and STRIPS.

Basically, if you are pretty sophisticated, and know what you're doing, and are comitted to making rebalancing moves when you see the signals you set (all big assumptions for most folk), you can hedge your RE cheaper with adjustable mortgages and treasuries than using a derivative. In fact, if you have enough wealth, because the expected future RE volatility is extremely high right now in bubble-markets, you can do quite well buying now if you know how to hedge AND you get a little bit of luck in the timing.

My guess is that almost 0 people will be able to really do this, unless they're already super-sophisticated RE investors (not flippers). The timing is the killer. The cost of hedging, even with financing, will only mount as you wait for the market to turn. And the window will close very fast on all this once sentiment does turn.

My husband just returned from the Bay Area yesterday. He was glad to be home. He got a ride to SJC airport from Campbell and it took him over an hour in bumper to bumper traffic @ 10:00am. He used to commute 1.5 hours each way to work when we lived there - 16 years - it reminded him of how much he hated traffic. Of course, he heard all of the stories about how all of our friend's homes have gone up so high (we sold two years ago because of a job transfer and are now in the Midwest).... anyway, I thought it was funny how everyone was so proud of themselves for 'making so much money' and they can't fathom that prices will ever go down - they all insist that prices will never drop. I thought it was interesting the same people just got new next door neighbors in Morgan Hill - Four sisters and their husbands and kids from Mexico - 4 families moved in together after purchasing the house for nearly one million dollars - house is 2800 sq ft. I thought it was sad that these people are having to live in such circumstances and probably took on a horrible loan as well.

Yes, I'm bothered that we sold at the 'wrong' time even though we did make a nice profit on the house at the time but I don't miss the traffic and congestion and horrible schools. The weather was nice in CA but what's interesting about other parts of the country is that everything is climate controlled - people in Vegas turn on the air, people in the midwest turn on the heat - it's comfortable - you learn to cope. I thought it was interesting that people would pay more than a million dollars for a shack because of the weather. You wouldn't believe the types of homes and lifestyles you can get elsewhere. It's not for everyone but there are other places. I'm glad I'm raising my kids here. The schools are wonderful, the parents are so involved. We can't find parking at any of the school functions because the parents are extremely interested in their children's education - the parent teacher conferences are 98% attended. When I was in CA, we had about 10 parents who showed up. I'm not trying to knock CA because I was born and raised there but I want those who feel hopeless about ever owning a home to know that you do have choices - sometimes those choices can give you a better life than you ever dreamed possible. Figure out what is important in your lives. I wanted to raise my children in a small town with family values and parks and trees and room to roam. Sure, I miss the possible equity loss because homes don't go up as much in the heartland -but I do think at the end of the day, our lives will be happier because of our choices.

Re: housing declines in "unbustable" BA markets.
Just for a bit of historical perspective, here's something from OFHEO.gov on house prices in SF:

1990 4 -2.56
1991 1 -4.79
1991 2 -4.95
1991 3 -4.72
1991 4 -1.67
1992 1 -0.96
1992 2 -1.05
1992 3 -0.85
1992 4 -2.27
1993 1 -2.63
1993 2 -2.34
1993 3 -2.74
1993 4 -2.11
1994 1 -1.33
1994 2 -1.71
1994 3 -2
1994 4 -2.97
1995 1 -1.55
1995 2 -0.19
1995 3 1.12

So, a hypothetical home "worth" $1M @ 1990 (4), may drop to roughly $675K by the end (-32.5%). Should we suppose this can't happen again?

“Assumption #2: Pro-RE Congress soon to pass mortgage income tax CREDIT (covering 100% of mortgage interest & prop tax)”

Has this credit ever been suggested in Congress?
This would make me sick

Not that I know of, but I wouldn't put it past them ;-)

Mainly HedgeStreet and their hedgelets. But also some interesting stuff about how you can create a sometimes safer synthetic hedge using short-term, variable financing and buying other things like TIPS and STRIPS.

HedgeStreet? OMG. It choked after I placed a $500 order. I think the "ask" side was exhausted after absorbing $200.

Basically, if you are pretty sophisticated, and know what you’re doing, and are comitted to making rebalancing moves when you see the signals you set (all big assumptions for most folk), you can hedge your RE cheaper with adjustable mortgages and treasuries than using a derivative.

I am probably too unsophisticated to handle the tracking risks. Using 5+ contracts of TY/US to "hedge" a mortgage can incur 5-digit losses in hours. These losses are marked-to-market and one needs a large capital base to meet margin requirements.

How would you hedge real estates? If you can convince me, I will call my agent this week.

I completely give up on the idea of hedging the RE market about 12 months ago. It appeared to me that the hedge is more dangerous than the thing being hedged.

Randy, can you post the reprint (or a summary) anyway?

You are an important source of economic theory and information. Without you the blog will be at the mercy of my half-truths. ;)

Always a little bit too late Says, I think quality homes that are reasonably priced and still selling. Fewer people are willing to pay unrealistic amounts now.

What type of property is that? Where is it located?

I think those numbers are year over year not quarter to quarter so the decline is actually a lot less.

Really? While dqnews compares prices from Y-to-Y, I haven't read anything that states quarterly numbers from ofheo.gov are doing that calculation. If anyone can source that directly, please post it. Of course, I may have missed something, even if those stats appear plausible. That said, I think the stakes are higher this time.

Always a little . . .

Tell us, I think we're all curious . . .

You own two properties, right?

How much did you purchase each for?
How big is each mortgage?

What do you think each is worth right now?

To the rest of the board . . . When frightened Sellers are postin on this board, that's a sign. . .

Yeah, LA was a mess and If I’m not mistaken so was San Diego. I just wonder if it’s dejavu all over again with the southland taking the brunt of the declines and the bay area getting hit mildly by comparison?

It may be a role reversal this time as there is growth in LA but no growth in BA.

OK--thanks: guess wasn't apparent to me. Since I've seen prices raise so high around here, I projected the now into the past.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm I wonder what Martha Stewart thinks about stock options??

K

Thanks for sharing your story, I think it resonates with a lot of us here. The one thing that keeps me in Ca is family if that changed, there wouldn't be any reason to stay-- at least as things are right now. But, the times they are a changin'...

I seriously doubt “role reversal” this time for LA/San Deigo vs SF Bay Area in spite of no growth in SF Bay Area. Too many people buying here just because they can.

Hmm, to many people SoCal is a lot more desirable than NorCal though. We will see.

And dont forget the rat infestation that is sweeeping the central coast.

I thought rats are now in Marin county. Remember the newspaper? ;)

---It may be a role reversal this time as there is growth in LA but no growth in BA.

I'm not convinced the problem in the BA is as much lack of growth as it is increasingly fragmented growth. I also believe this is largely the cause of the increasing commuter-time-averages, whereas in the late 90s it was overall growth driving congestion. There are segments of the BA (that aren't RE related) that are growing quite healthily. The problem is that this growth is in financial services, M&A/consolidation, banking, legal, etc., so it's just concentrating wealth further at the top. SoCal is growing more smoothly, supporting RE better. This is why so many of these discussions devolve into the "RE in Marin" arguments. It's possible that certain RE pockets will hold onto much of their gains whereas others will bottom out, IMO.

I looked at a SJ downtown condo over the weekend. They wanted 850K for a 2/2! The agent said it is because of the extraordinary rennovations in it, such as a sub-zero fridge. (However, I told her that it is entirely unacceptable that full marble baths are missing in a supposedly "luxurious" condo.)

Similar (but slightly smaller) units in the same complex are asking low 600's.

The problem is that this growth is in financial services, M&A/consolidation, banking, legal, etc., so it’s just concentrating wealth further at the top.

So the market for $hitboxes will crash. MarinaPrime will be safe.

were those numbers for the whole nine county bay area, weak and strong markets included?

That data was forwarded to me, labeled "SF", so I assumed it was just that city.
Of course, that's what I get for not getting the data myself: confusion. ;)

Rats! Marin could be the future "Rats on the Bay". Think of the intangibles, the notoriety and possible capitalization: a Marin "Rat Festival"! Unemployeed realtors could populate a Rat Festival float during the Larkspur Rat Parade...
Sure sounds like Fairfax takes the news in stride. A sense of humor: I knew I liked that place. Here and there, I've seen a rodent actually swimming the water outside. I can only hope he'll meet the aquatic snake I've also seen. Then again, the river otter will take care of both: he camps out in our boats overnight.

I can't really post the WSJ article here without risking a copyright violation for this blog. I don't want to do anything that could jeapordize this awesome resource. Here's problaby the most useful statement for folks here from the entire article...

--
Another tactic: If you live in a frothy housing market and expect to move within a year or so, it may be worthwhile to consider selling now and renting for a few months. Last year Dean Baker, a Washington economist who is bearish on U.S. real-estate prices, decided to take profits on the
two-bedroom condominium he and his wife owned in Washington's Adams Morgan neighborhood. Having bought the condo for about $160,000 in 1997, Mr. Baker says, they sold it for nearly $450,000 in May 2004. The couple now live in an apartment nearby, costing $2,250 a month in rent.
Since they sold, Mr. Baker concedes, the market value of his old condo probably has gone up even further. But he says he is happy with his decision. "Realistically," he says, "you're not going to be able to pick the exact top" of the market.

--source:
September 17, 2005
HOME ECONOMICS
New Tools to Hedge Your Home
Exotic Investment Products Target Anxious Owners Eager to Lock In Their Gains
By JAMES R. HAGERTY
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
September 17, 2005; Page B1

KurtS’s numbers are not cumulative to a 32+% decline but hey, if it makes you happy, go with it!

I agree that the number did not show 32+% decline. What do you mean by "if it makes you happy, go with it"?

Mr. and Mrs. Baker, barring any other unstated need for selling, made a serious financial mistake as they are now paying substantially more to rent than they did to own, and the cost to buy back into that market at comparable prices will require a crash ala 1929.

Well, unless they moved into a much better 225apartment... 450K versus 2250 rent does not indicate a bubble to me.

...and the cost to buy back into that market at comparable prices will require a crash ala 1929...

So it takes a 1929 crash to return prices to May 2004 level?

KurtS’s numbers are not cumulative to a 32+% decline but hey, if it makes you happy, go with it

My calculation was correct, but not my assumption that those decreases were from quarter-to-quarter, vs. Y-to-Y. I already noted that, strike it from the record.

Marin Co rats! Finally the So Cal desert and Marin Co have something in common. Can we count this as an intangible? We had a major rat population explosion here in the wasteland too after the big winter rains. I was forced to become a reluctant expert in rat hunting and disinfecting. (Um, disinfecting the screened patio, not the rats.) Aside from the ick factor, it was actually kind of funny to listen to prissy middle class women whining about their rat infestations.

Marin Co rats!

My cats would love Marin county.

If it makes one happy to believe that the BA market has recently and is soon facing a decline of 32+%, go with it.

If it makes you happy to believe that we would delude ourselves with false interpretations, go with it. ;)