patrick.net

Rashomon says

Heraclitusstudent says

Also traditional Muslims women simply don't go to the beach.

Absolute nonsense. Ever been to the ME? Muslim women frequently go to the beach with their families.

I've been to Dubai (loved the place), the most liberal of the screwed up Middle East. They do go to the beach, the malls and anywhere else. But Burkhinis and Burkhas in the desert heat is still human rights abuse.

turtledove says

Heraclitusstudent says

This clothing is like waving ISIS flags on your beaches.

They've been covering up long before ISIS. It is their belief that their beauty should be something only their husband gets to see. So they cover their hair, bodies, faces... This has nothing to do with terrorism. And it's a practice that has been going on much longer than these terrorist attacks... wars... or oil interests...

No, no, no. First it's the burkini and next is a mushroom cloud. Burkinis are WMD

I command you to read Patrick.net
Now let's see if you obey...

Rew says

You going to tell me what I can read too?

What if we old muslims?
Or even middle age muslims?

Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses says

Perhaps if you new muslims, you wouldn't be so judgemental and full of hate.

Let em have one tit and one lip showing so we can tell which of the 54 google flavors of ill-patterned chromosones they have...

Rashomon says

Let them wear what they want to wear. It isn't a fight with any upside

Which explains why we are all not planting roadbombs trying to take ourselves out...

Rashomon says

It is their belief that their beauty should be something only their husband gets to see.

It's called dressing so as not to scare your kids right into a foster home...

Rashomon says

Hindu women are generally fully clothed when at the beach. It's called dressing modestly in a conservative society

Rew says

That apply to birth control and gay wedding cakes too?

Seriously, legislating on what people are wearing? Beyond basic public decency laws that seems asinine. What next? You going to tell me what I can read too?

It makes total sense. Most countries do not allow cloaked public gatherings/protests for obvious security reasons. In this case it is a symbol of brutal female oppression in the view of those countries that implement those laws. You can be of different opinion, but it makes total sense in the context. Regardless of whether I would legislate it the same way or not, it's pretty easy to follow. and really doesn't hamper anyone's freedom. You can still wear what you want at home, or at a private beach.

Rashomon says

I spent a long time travelling around India. Hindu women are generally fully clothed when at the beach.

And they can do so wherever they are from, just not in France at the public beach. Again, no controversy here. Respect the laws of the land, wherever you go. If not, pack your stuff and go back. It's called cultural differences.

mell says

Regardless of whether I would legislate it the same way or not, it's pretty easy to follow. and really doesn't hamper anyone's freedom. You can still wear what you want at home, or at a private beach.

Habbits, kasaya, kipa, clerical clothing, mormon suit tie name tag : all must be banned. They all have histories of oppression, radicalism, and sorted histories with the treatment of women. Displaying these symbols is embracing that legacy.

Hoodies, sunglasses, large caps : all banned as they hide ones features and cause a security risk.

No, it is not easy to follow. They will not go into public, mixed sex areas, without being modestly covered.

OMG! ISIS Started in America in the 1900s! Women oppressors!

mell says

And they can do so wherever they are from, just not in France at the public beach. Again, no controversy here. Respect the laws of the land, wherever you go. If not, pack your stuff and go back. It's called cultural differences.

You mean respect the bans of a couple of local authorities? Bans that clearly make no sense and are obviously discriminatory?

What are you offended by? Is it because most press pictures use images of black burkinis? Are the colourful ones equally offensive to you? These are no more than tops and bottoms made of material more suited to water. What exactly is the problem? You go around the world and you can see women covered up. I mentioned India, but I've seen it a lot in China and Japan as well. They do it for sun protection, but are still covered up, and aren't harming anyone. Come on, seriously, what harm are burkinis doing?

Rashomon says

They do it for sun protection, but are still covered up, and aren't harming anyone. Come on, seriously, what harm are burkinis doing?

They represent Islamic shariah laws. I find that offensive.

mell says

You can still wear what you want at home, or at a private beach.

How libertarian of you. Once you go outside you have to "look" like an American. White face, anyone? It's so offensive to hear foreign nationals abroad in our great country speaking non-american...right there on the street, in cafes. What are they planning? Why can't they just stay indoors? These multi-cultists just really hate white people. Bigots.

Nope. Not the same.
One can see titty outlines...

Rew says

OMG! ISIS Started in America in the 1900s! Women oppressors!

Bad news folks. A French court just suspended Burkhini ban.

neplusultra57 says

Tell all the nuns to swim somewhere else and not to expect real Americans to save their stupid asses.

Nuns don't swim in their Jesus dress.

Crotchless burkinis, now!

Rashomon says

You mean respect the bans of a couple of local authorities?

Yeah, pretty much. You're a guest in this country. Even if you obtain citizenship eventually, your culture is foreign. Be thankful you got the opportunity for a better life in France.

neplusultra57 says

How libertarian of you.

Again, Libertarian also means respecting foreign customs, traditions and laws and not to go apeshit when you can't have it your cultural way and start wars and disruptions. Also France is a mix of a Libertarian, egalitarian and socialist country with a strong stance against oppression, which those clothes stand for - no matter whether some of the women are happy being subjugated (some really are) and some aren't. But hey, once you immigrated, became a citizen you can use the legal/political route to try and change these laws if it's in your interest. What is fascinating though is the self-flagellating nature of western leftists constantly trying to appease their - often problematic - immigrant populace while trashing and utterly disregarding the needs of their poorer autochthon brethtren. A Libertarian approach infused with a healthy dose of nationalism and patriotism geared inwards (not to be misused for wars) seems like what the US needs at this point before it self-destructs itself wallowing in preventative appeasement, constant guilt-tripping and political correctness.

mell says

Libertarian also means respecting foreign customs, traditions

Then you should have no trouble with ethnic dress, but you do. As Hydro said, why not stop pretending you're a fake libertarian and just be one for real?

neplusultra57 says

mell says

Libertarian also means respecting foreign customs, traditions

Then you should have no trouble with ethnic dress, but you do. As Hydro said, why not stop pretending you're a fake libertarian and just be one for real?

If it's a symbol of brutal oppression and terrorism, yes, it can be seen as deeply problematic. I can see their concerns. The original Liberal bourgeoisie was far more conservative than what you may consider Libertarian. There is not one political fraction, we're not Democrats who have to toe the Shillary party line on every topic. In fact the Libertarian/Republican landscape these days is far more diverse which is a direct result of the problems the Republican have had over the past years after being ruled by the neocons for way too long, which in turn is why neocons and warmongering have been having a big renaissance within the Democratic party. The times are changing.

"The court said in a statement the decree to ban burkinis in Villeneuve-Loubet "had seriously infringed, in a manner that was clearly illegal, fundamental liberties such as the freedom to come and go, religious freedom and individual freedom.""

Get 'em France! Maybe you are a braver defender of freedom than the US these days?

Loving that Statue of Liberty more each passing day.

mell says

If it's a symbol of brutal oppression and terrorism, yes, it can be seen as deeply problematic

Yes, we should decide for them what it means. Not ask them. Just tell them. They are too stupid to decide for themselves. Strategist says

They represent Islamic shariah laws. I find that offensive.

Dumbfuck, why don't you try making some muslim friends, and asking them why they wear scarves, or burkinis? You know, as if they were people...

Ironvagina, or blurtfart, walking the beaches looking for burkinis to get offended by.

Shameless subversives.

Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses says

Yes, we should decide for them what it means. Not ask them. Just tell them. They are too stupid to decide for themselves.

We are not deciding anything, the people in that area decided so. You think they are too stupid to decide for themselves what they want to see or have represented in their area or not? Or are you trying to bring the point across that a woman growing up with the commandment that she needs to walk behind her man fully cloaked (in the arduous summer heat) is more educated to decide for herself than people who grew up in a French town what they want their town to look like and what cultural and religious influences they want to see it exposed to? It's like the twilight zone in here.

Sometimes a bathing suit is just a bathing suit.... Kind of like a cigar...

turtledove says

Sometimes a bathing suit is just a bathing suit.... Kind of like a cigar...

Sure, sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. Well I'd like to enjoy my beer in public, fresh air, nice park and such. It's part of my ethnicity. Do I run around and bash the US for their public drinking laws? I'm sure many countries shake their head at those. Still, nobody would even get remotely close to the point of accusing the US of being xenophobe, racist, bigot and whatnot. And the public drinking law is a hell lot stupider than the burkini ban could ever be (which does ban a symbol of female oppression even though some may wear it "voluntarily"). But hey it was apparently overturned, so we can go to the next thing in western culture that may offend foreign cultures and religions. After all, flagellation of their own brethren and pre-emptive submission is a leftist past-time. Let's continue to fight for the middle-eastern way to suppress their women brutally while demanding eye-rape, cat-calling/whistling, man-spreading and being a Christian to be punished ;)

mell says

And the public drinking law is a hell lot stupider than the burkini ban could ever be

Why? Seriously.

Rashomon says

mell says

And the public drinking law is a hell lot stupider than the burkini ban could ever be

Why? Seriously.

Because of safety, hygienic (esp. in pools and lakes) and cultural/value issues mentioned plentiful in this thread. Publicly drinking a can of beer has zero consequences. Operating machinery drunk does. But hey, we can live it. Barely ;)

mell says

Because of safety, hygienic (esp. in pools and lakes) and cultural/value issues mentioned plentiful in this thread. Publicly drinking a can of beer has zero consequences. Operating machinery drunk does. But hey, we can live it. Barely ;)

The ban, common around the world, isn't aimed at an adult quietly drinking a can of beer. It's for all the other shite you see when (generally young) people get shit faced in public and cause all the anti-social problems that invariably follow. But hey, what's that compared to a handful of Muslims wearing a bit more clothing than you usually see on the beach? Actually, I think we should ban all those fully clothed people who walk their dogs up and down beaches, letting them have a dump wherever, and sometimes even, you know, wading out into the water, both them and their dogs. Very unhygienic. Really, they always offend me and my mates when we're lying on the beach. Fair's fair.

Rashomon says

Actually, I think we should ban all those fully clothed people who walk their dogs up and down beaches, letting them have a dump wherever, and sometimes even, you know, wading out into the water, both them and their dogs. Very unhygienic. Really, they always offend me and my mates when we're lying on the beach. Fair's fair.

I agree. I prefer beaches were dogs are banned (but respect those where they are allowed or even can roam free), and beaches have the right to do so and many do. I have also never seen nuns bathing clothed in water (neither here nor in any European country) as mentioned in some articles and would oppose that as well (though it is a lesser problem wrt values/culture as this is not a doctrine, still a safety/hygienic issue). Not every law or regulation is a civil rights issue. Wrt drinking, public intoxication is already punishable, but most people simply drink at home, in bars or clubs and then go out. Also most European countries allow public drinking (but not heavy public intoxication).

They don't ban the fully clothed people though, do they?

And sure the US laws are excessive, but that doesn't change the fact that public drinking has a potentially far more negative impact than this burkini nonsense.

Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses says

Dumbfuck, why don't you try making some muslim friends, and asking them why they wear scarves, or burkinis? You know, as if they were people...

Stop your nonsense. Are you that naive that you don't know how Muslim countries treat infidels and atheists like me? We have no freedom in their fucked up countries. But i'm the bad guy who gets cursed by people like you because I want them to get a taste of what they dole out.
Have you ever cursed anyone who practices the shariah laws? or you just curse people who speak out against disgusting shariah laws?

The hard part of this is the one-sided treatment.

For example:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2756134/Dozens-Christians-including-women-children-arrested-Saudi-Arabia-tip-state-s-Islamist-police-force.html

Rew says

OMG! ISIS Started in America in the 1900s! Women oppressors!

There's actually another reason for that. It's the same one that is in play in China right now, with Chinese women covering well up.

Before the Civil War, in Colonial and Napoleonic Times, having your tits half out was commonplace. In the Edwardian Era, the fashion was whalebone stuff that made it look like your ass was sticking out 5 feet:

It wasn't really until after WW2 where the ideal of women's beauty became tan, and eventually by the 60s, thin.

The explanation I heard for this is: If you were pale and chubby prior to the post-war era, it meant you were a woman of worth who didn't have to work either outside with the crops, or do your own washing on the tenement's roof, getting bombarded by sun rays. Women would often cover up to avoid any kind of tan, even lower class women.

Now, if you are pale and chubby, you probably are an office slave. If you are thin and tanned, you probably are wealthy and have the leisure time to watch your weight (or $ to get surgery) and hang out at the beach or on your yacht.

In China, pale skinned women have been a mark of sex appeal for a very long time, and particularly the face:

thunderlips11 says

The hard part of this is the one-sided treatment.

For example:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2756134/Dozens-Christians-including-women-children-arrested-Saudi-Arabia-tip-state-s-Islamist-police-force.html

Oh, that's OK. We should respect the Saudi culture. Don't you have Muslim friends? Cant you see how civilized they are?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/advice/dress-code-guide-for-muslim-countries/

"Air France stewardesses were last week told to wear headscarves upon arrival in Tehran when the airline resumes services there later this month. The order sparked outrage among female cabin crew members, some of whom say they will refuse to fly to the Iranian capital.

The Foreign Office (FCO) advises that travellers to Islamic countries should respect local traditions, customs, laws and religions at all times and should be aware of their actions to ensure they don’t offend locals...

Iran

The current Foreign Office advice for travel to Iran outlines that Islamic codes of behaviour and dress are strictly enforced. In any public place women must cover their heads with a headscarf, wear trousers (or a floor length skirt), and a long-sleeved tunic or coat that reaches to mid-thigh or knee. Men should wear long trousers and long-sleeve shirts.

There are additional dress requirements at certain religious sites. Women may be asked to put on a chador (a garment that covers the whole body except the face) before entering, it adds.

United Arab Emirates

"Respect for local culture and customs is highly desirable," the United Arab Emirates tourism website states.

Women should dress modestly when in public areas like shopping malls. Clothes should cover the tops of the arms and legs, and underwear should not be visible. Swimming attire should be worn only on beaches or at swimming pools, the FCO warns.

Turkey

Dress conservatively when visiting mosques or a shrine, advises the FCO, and follow the dress codes posted outside each one, says Terry Richardson, Telegraph Travel’s Turkey expert.

Both men and women should not wear shorts, sleeveless shirts or anything that exposes too much flesh. Women should wear skirts reaching below the knee level, and shirts with sleeves preferably elbow length or longer.

Jordan

Jordan is a conservative society. You should dress modestly and behave courteously, the FCO warns.

Exposing as little skin as possible is key, wearing long trousers and shirts with long sleeves and high neck lines are advised for both men and women.

Women should wear loose fitting clothes, covering the arms, legs and chest area, while T-shirts are best avoided for both sexes. Women’s hair should be dry, as wet hair is said to suggest sexual availability, and long hair should be clipped up following the pattern of local Jordanian women with long hair, who rarely wear it below their shoulders if they aren’t wearing a headscarf.

Saudi Arabia

It is forbidden for Saudi women to appear in public without their heads covered, and most Saudi women wear niqabs (veil). Shopping is the main pastime in Riyadh, enjoyed by women and men. Women will normally be fully covered, including veils, the FCO states."

These countries openly state: "Respect for local culture and customs is highly desirable". I don't see why the French can not expect the same "respect".

Strategist says

Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses says

Dumbfuck, why don't you try making some muslim friends, and asking them why they wear scarves, or burkinis? You know, as if they were people...

Stop your nonsense. Are you that naive that you don't know how Muslim countries treat infidels and atheists like me? We have no freedom in their fucked up countries. But i'm the bad guy who gets cursed by people like you because I want them to get a taste of what they dole out.

Have you ever cursed anyone who practices the shariah laws? or you just curse people who speak out against disgusting shariah laws?

No response. I wonder why. Let me try again.
Are all Muslims the same? How will making friends with a few Muslims from a billion plus indicate the real Muslims or Islam? Yes, I have Muslim friends, and they do no not support the disgusting sharia laws. The radical SOB Muslims from my college days would never associate with the infidels.
So my question to you is.....Are you that naive to think a few good Muslim friends represents all Muslims and the disgusting shariah laws that their religion demands they adhere to?
Only the Shariah laws and Islam represents itself. And in today's world, this rotten religion needs to be humiliated and shamed until it is gone. People like you who stand up for this rotten religion are naive and part of the terrorism problem we have to endure.

mell says

Publicly drinking a can of beer has zero consequences.

Take that one down to your local police station. Try it on them. See what they think.

Indiana Jones says

I don't see why the French can not expect the same "respect".

Yes, armed men patrolling forcing a woman to wear something more pleasing to them, sounds exactly like France, and the Western nations I know. Ehhhh, wait a minute ...

Freedom of expression and general civil liberties actually think the most respectful thing you can do is to allow people to wear what they want.

Sarees and turbans are next on the list, right?

Rew says

Indiana Jones says

I don't see why the French can not expect the same "respect".

Yes, armed men patrolling forcing a woman to wear something more pleasing to them, sounds exactly like France, and the Western nations I know. Ehhhh, wait a minute ...

Freedom of expression and general civil liberties actually think the most respectful thing you can do is to allow people to wear what they want.

Sarees and turbans are next on the list, right?

Apparently, the French legal system also agrees with you, at least with regard to the burkini.

Nothing makes a religion grow than perceived "Persecution", although the Muslims in France came voluntarily and can leave if they don't like. And yes, it is thundering hypocrisy that Muslims demand total respect for their norms in their countries, but don't give the same courtesy in return. The Burka Ban won't work in France. There's one way to make it work, however.

One law for all. The laws against Polygamy either need to be enforced on everybody, or allow anybody, Muslim or non-Muslim, to practice Polygamy. It can't be one law for non-Muslims that doesn't apply to Muslims. This is a major problem in the UK, where the neoliberals have decided to look the other way at multiple marriages and allow polygamists to immigrate without rectifying their marital situation.

In the US, many jurisdictions have bans on public face coverings. This has been used to bust the Klan, but has it's origins as a mechanism to deter robberies. Are we going to selectively enforce this law with prejudice depending on religion, or apply it to everybody?

If France was to adopt a ban on public face coverings in order to deter robbery, then everybody should obey it, including Muslim Women, not just French Men. They are free to return to Algeria.

That would rightly ban the Burka and Niqab, but not the Burkini.

We've already had experience with an English-speaking nation allowing special schools and special shariah courts for divorce/marriage.
http://onelawforall.org.uk/sharia-testimonials/