patrick.net

"Ahhh...
So it's BETTER for a company to close down it's factory and move to another country, lay off all it's workers and they go on unemployment, all local business shut down because the employees aren't shopping local, no real estate taxes being paid by company, all the suppliers to the company have economic hardship, utility companies suffer, etc. etc. etc.
Sounds like utopia in your world."

Nope--it's better if Trump grew a pair and actually made a GOOD deal. Threaten the company with tariffs, loss of government contracts, etc. if they move jobs rather than giving away taxpayer dollars.

www.youtube.com/embed/Avi0H5T7rrE

Leftie tolerance and peace.
www.youtube.com/embed/BXpi3F0E5ro

Good post. There was a lot of effective propaganda this cycle. It was astounding to see what people would believe/think.

Ironman says

So it's BETTER for a company to close down it's factory and move to another country, lay off all it's workers and they go on unemployment, all local business shut down because the employees aren't shopping local, no real estate taxes being paid by company, all the suppliers to the company have economic hardship, utility companies suffer, etc. etc. et

You are confusing interstate competition with intercountry competition. While there are parallels, there is less basis for cooperation between countries. As far as the carrier deal in particular goes, it's more complicated than one company. If you have 40 customers, and one threatens to leave, would you give them a 50% discount to stay if it were still profitable to you? What if all of the other customers know about the discount? Does that change the analysis? Of course it does. Your overall profit might go down once the other customers are done negotiating with you.

Strategist says

Show me the math

They got a $7M tax break, I think. They saved 1100 or 800 jobs depending on who you ask. $7,000,000 / 800 jobs = $8750 per job. $7,000,000 / 1100 jobs = $6400 / job. That's a lot of money coming straight out of other peoples pockets to employ these people. As for the 'some tax money is better than none' argument, see my response to Ironman above.

YesYNot says

Strategist says

Show me the math

They got a $7M tax break, I think. They saved 1100 or 800 jobs depending on who you ask. $7,000,000 / 800 jobs = $8750 per job. $7,000,000 / 1100 jobs = $6400 / job. That's a lot of money coming straight out of other peoples pockets to employ these people. As for the 'some tax money is better than none' argument, see my response to Ironman above.

That's the cost over 10 years. It's also only part of the equation. What about the benefits over 1o years?

YesYNot says

They got a $7M tax break, I think. They saved 1100 or 800 jobs depending on who you ask. $7,000,000 / 800 jobs = $8750 per job. $7,000,000 / 1100 jobs = $6400 / job. That's a lot of money coming straight out of other peoples pockets to employ these people

Leftie logic. Tax break vs welfare. There was even one leftie loon congress critter saying we ought to drug test tax break corporations like welfare.

When you give a company a tax break-it basically means you are taxing them at a much lower effective rate.
When you are giving someone welfare-like illegals-you are taking money from my pocket and giving to them.

Lefties are so used to the welfare state that they feel entitled to other people's money.

YesYNot says

They got a $7M tax break, I think. They saved 1100 or 800 jobs depending on who you ask. $7,000,000 / 800 jobs = $8750 per job. $7,000,000 / 1100 jobs = $6400 / job.

Over a decade, not annually. So it's $700,000/year for 800 employees = $1,250/yr per employee.

The typical Carrier employee makes $23/hr. At 40 hours, 50 weeks a year that's about $45,000/yr.

Most of those employees will be paying more than $1250/year in federal income tax.
With Indiana's ~3% state income tax, they'll be paying about $1250k/year in state income tax.

Plus the state gets all the other taxes associated with Carrier, from property taxes to business taxes; the employees with decent jobs paying sales taxes on the shit they buy.

When you make $23/hr you can buy a lot more sales taxable items than when you make $9/hr at some Warehouse stocking imported Chinese Crap, which is the High Tech Job of the Future* the employees would likely get if Carrier left.

* 1993 Clinton State of the Union on signing NAFTA
http://www.infoplease.com/t/hist/state-of-the-union/206.html

Well all know short term things are over bought... but this is just icing on the cake and the Jan PMI bears of 2016 when stocks had their worst start ever in history, were so sure on the collapse of America

Discipline would have told you not to dance with the collapse devil in the pale moonlight

Logan Mohtashami says

Well all know short term things are over bought... but this is just icing on the cake and the Jan PMI bears of 2016 when stocks had their worst start ever in history, were so sure on the collapse of America

Discipline would have told you not to dance with the collapse devil in the pale moonlight

Bears are getting desperate. It's what happens when you've been wrong for 8 straight years.

Tim Aurora says

Got it . I agree that I was wrong in stating Putin as communist. He is a fascist.

And the banks run the USA.

Strategist says

That's the cost over 10 years. It's also only part of the equation. What about the benefits over 1o years?

That's probably why I remembered something on the order of $1000 or $2000. It's been a while. Anyway, IMO, it's too much when you consider that other companies will want the same. Plus, I doubt those Carrier employees will be getting $23 an hour. I read that they are taking a pay cut. In addition, as I wrote elsewhere, I think this deal had a bit of implied coercion due to the parent companies deals with the gov. In any case, it wasn't an arms length transaction. It will likely only be a two year deal. We'll see.

As far as the Indiana income tax goes, I doubt these guys will be paying $1250 after deductions. Plus, these guys would probably get paid more than $9 and hour if they had to get another job. Indiana would collect tax on that income, so you cannot just tally up that $1250 as new income.

Trump's success doesn't hinge on this deal. It hinges on whether or not he can increase wages for blue collar workers. That's ultimately the promise that got their vote. Carrier is symbolic.

Blurtman says

Dan8267 says

Wikipedia, the site that said Plato was a Hawaiian surfer taught by Barney the Dinosaur. Yep, quoting that makes you look smart.

Being a lazy ass and not being able to refute Wiki certainly doesn't make one look smart.

I have to refute that Plato was an ancient Hawaiian surfer and meteorologist taught by Barney the Dinosaur?

Sorry honey, but if you are quoting discredited sources to make yourself look good, it's on you when you don't look credible. The proof of burden lies on the person making the claim, not everyone listening to the claim.

Tim Aurora says

Just because someone hacked in and wrote some BS, you cannot ignore 1 million right facts on Wikipedia

1. Misinformation on Wikipedia isn't rare. It's the norm.
2. Separating the facts from the lies is exactly the problem with Wikipedia.

In order to do that you need to use other sources, so why not skip a step on just go directly to those sources?

The fact is that the intellectually lazy use Wikipedia because too many fools consider it the end-all near perfect source of information, which cannot be further from the truth. Quoting Wikipedia is the modern equivalent of quoting the Bible. It's meant to turn off thinking and questioning.

Sure a broken clock is sometimes right, but you shouldn't rely on it. Nor should it be your go to source for the time.

Tim Aurora says

As flawed a candidate Hillary was, she is more in the center than Bernie or other democrats.

That's part of the problem; DNC fucked up because bernie sanders had very good shot at winning primaries. Had he been allowed to win, which he probably would have, I would argue that he probably would have beaten Trump

Dan8267 says

The proof of burden lies on the person making the claim, not everyone listening to the claim.

No, we all have to verify information form any source and reach our own conclusions. How would you describe the current ruling party in Russia?

Tim Aurora says

• “Make America Great Again” is the slogan for people who are working to “Make America Irrelevant in world affairs”. The new superpowers will be China,

China's entire economy is based on selling goods to the United States. US economy still 2X greater in size than China. Might need russia to keep china in check along with India.

China can "pick up slack" by dealing with Pakistan instead of the United States. US is starting to shift preference towards India over Pakistan.

Tim Aurora says

• Few years ago , the slogan for Republicans was “They hate us for our freedom” and lets spread freedom even if takes war (remember Iraq)

Thanks to Saudi Arabia; destabilizing Iraq was Bush stupidity, continued by Obama and Clinton. Should be supporting Assad to maintain secularity in Syria, but that wouldn't happen with a Clinton win.

MMR says

China can "pick up slack" by dealing with Pakistan instead of the United States.

Pakistan is a failed state. They are dependent on others for their survival.

Tim Aurora says

• Evangelists supported Trump, a known sex philanderer and offende

While that may be true, abortion and other evangelical issues were not a big part of this election,

Trump is saying "lets bring back 'merry christmas' and fuck political correctness' to throw these guys a bone.Dan8267 says

In America guns and Christianity go hand-in-hand

It's funny because in the era of JFK, saying that you liked hunting wouldn't give an idea one way or other about one's political affiliations

Strategist says

MMR says

China can "pick up slack" by dealing with Pakistan instead of the United States.

Pakistan is a failed state. They are dependent on others for their survival.

correct; let them depend on China moving forward as the US continues to cozy up to India

Blurtman says

No, we all have to verify information form any source and reach our own conclusions.

No one verifies information from Wikipedia before posting it. Again, quoting a discredited encyclopedia is simply intellectual laziness.

I'm telling this to you for your own good. Although you think quoting Wikipedia makes you look smarter, it actually does the exact opposite. Wikipedia is a bigger joke than even Fox News.

If there is any evidence to support whatever case you are making, then it's trivially easy to find better evidence from real journals and news outlets. Wikipedia is the mother of all fake stories sites.

errc says

Nothing naive about that. Bernie absolutely would have won the election, with even a half fair shake. He came close, and that was with both parties doing everything possible to deny him in the primary.

Bernie won almost half the Dem Primaries/Caucuses, with the Media against him, despite his underdog status.

MMR says

correct; let them depend on China moving forward as the US continues to cozy up to India

Sorry for Nixon. If he hadn't interfered, Pakistan would be a puppet state of India.

Dan8267 says

Although you think quoting Wikipedia makes you look smarter

I don't think that at all. But if any Wiki reference that I do post is in fact not correct, please do cite better references. I don't think you ever have.

"Bernie won almost half the Dem Primaries/Caucuses, with the Media against him, despite his underdog status"

The media had nothing to do with Bernie's loss. Having the media against him was probably a good thing in this election. Bernie lost because he couldn't win minorities. The "rigged" election is hogwash. And I say that as a strong Bernie supporter and voter.

"So tell me, which is better, making a 20% profit, down from 35% because you negotiated and you kept the factory open and people employed, or making ZERO profit because you had to shut down the company?"

False choice. I'll take door 3. Telling Carrier that once Trump is President, they can be certain that United Technologies will not be getting any government contracts and products manufactured overseas for the US market will be hit with a nice sized tariff? Instead of rewarding them.

Ironman says

YesYNot says

I doubt

YesYNot says

I read

YesYNot says

I think

YesYNot says

will likely

YesYNot says

would probably

Do you EVER deal with FACTS instead of SPECULATION?

In other words YesYNot, you have no fucking clue.

joeyjojojunior says

The media had nothing to do with Bernie's loss. Having the media against him was probably a good thing in this election. Bernie lost because he couldn't win minorities. The "rigged" election is hogwash. And I say that as a strong Bernie supporter and voter.

True, for the most part. I think had Bernie won the primaries he would've made Trump look as dumb as he is, and won the general.

I think the biggest drag on a "Bernie wins" prediction was that the Dems wouldn't have won many of the Primary states Bernie won in the General--Alaska? Indiana? Oklahoma? Utah? Wyoming?

OTOH, He'd probably win the blue states, and might've retained the purples as Dems would vote for him, as well as many of those who had switched to Trump. We also would have had higher turnout, which would've mad a yuuge difference.

Blurtman says

But if any Wiki reference that I do post is in fact not correct, please do cite better references. I don't think you ever have.

I'm not arguing about the specific point you are trying to make about the election. I'm arguing against using Wikipedia as a go to source. It's irrelevant whether or not the broken clock is coincidentally right at this particular time.

I have shown time and time again that Wikipedia is nothing more than a blatant propaganda machine spewing massive amounts of misinformation. See all the previous posts I made about it for details. There comes a point where a source has been discredited so thoroughly and so many times that it is ridiculous to continue using it. Wikipedia has long past that point.

joeyjojojunior says

The media had nothing to do with Bernie's loss.

That's a load of crap. Of course the media, both news and entertainment, have a huge affect on the electorate. This is precisely why campaigns spend so much money on media.

CL says

We also would have had higher turnout, which would've mad a yuuge difference.

Not enough is said about turnout this election. It was like?, what?, at a 20 year low? You can guaran-damn-tee the lack of enthusiasm was on the Dem side. Lots of libocrats said "meh" to the Hillbot. Trump got out the vote, even if what galvanized his base was good old fashioned rabblerousing.

joeyjojojunior says

The media had nothing to do with Bernie's loss. Having the media against him was probably a good thing in this election. Bernie lost because he couldn't win minorities. The "rigged" election is hogwash. And I say that as a strong Bernie supporter and voter.

Actually, I was incorrect about the negative stories about Bernie.

I may have posted this in another thread. But WaPo didn't run so many negative stories over days, it was 16 Negative Stories in 16 Hours Prior to Super Tuesday

16 Stories in less than one day! Here are 15 of them:

http://fair.org/home/washington-post-ran-16-negative-stories-on-bernie-sanders-in-16-hours/

Ironman says

"Might"...

That's why every deal is negotiated separately..

So tell me, which is better, making a 20% profit, down from 35% because you negotiated and you kept the factory open and people employed, or making ZERO profit because you had to shut down the company?

False choice. Each negotiation affects your ability to negotiate with other customers. I said might, because we know that some other company will try to pull a Carrier. We don't know how many and how successful they will be. Just because you ignore the possibility, doesn't mean you are dealing with facts. It just means that your model is not dynamic, and your head is in the sand.

"Actually, I was incorrect about the negative stories about Bernie.
I may have posted this in another thread. But WaPo didn't run so many negative stories over days, it was 16 Negative Stories in 16 Hours Prior to Super Tuesday. 16 Stories in less than one day! Here are 15 of them"

Maybe you misunderstood my comment--I wasn't saying that there were no negative stories written about Bernie. Just that those negative stories were not the cause of his defeat in the primary.

Dan8267 says

I have shown time and time again that Wikipedia is nothing more than a blatant propaganda machine spewing massive amounts of misinformation.

Unlike the MSM. We all have to do our own homework.

Blurtman says

Unlike the MSM. We all have to do our own homework.

That doesn't justify using thoroughly discredited sources. A writer shouldn't take the stance of "reader beware, everything I cite may be a lie". A writer should at least put a little effort into trying to use good sources.