patrick.net

PeopleUnited says

You did say that Christianity is a bigger threat to America than Islam. It is practically verbatum what you said earlier in this thread.

That's true Dan. You clearly said several times that Christianity is a bigger threat than Islam. You also said the way to end the Islamic threat was by getting rid of Christianity.
Very very silly. I hope you are changing your mind.

PeopleUnited says

People are by nature corrupt, and their corrupt actions (sometimes even those taken in the name of religion) are an indictment of them as individuals but not necessarily of the religion which they practice.

Bullshit. This is a total cop out. It's like arguing that since some people rape, we should encourage our children to rape while we raise them.

Institutions and cultures matter. A culture of irrationality supported by institutions that brainwash children create corruption and evil that would not have existed without them. Just look at Islamic countries in the Middle East.

The hypocrisy of PeopleUnited's latest post is unfathomable. He started this thread precisely to criticize the religions of Islam for their role in creating terrorism, and now he's whitewashing the role of Christian religions in brainwashing people into committing acts of evil.

You'll notice that people who deny the evils of their religion follow the exact same playbook as people who deny climate change or any other fact. First they say there is no problem. Then they say the facts aren't establish and there is doubt. Then they attack the motivations of those providing objective, verifiable evidence. Then they say the problem isn't caused by their group but something else (fake Christians, the sun, etc.). Then they say the problem cannot be solved anyway, so it should be ignored and no changes made. Finally they argue it's too late to do anything, so we shouldn't. PeopleUnited and the other whitewashers of religion on this thread have used every one of these tactics except the last. I guess that comes when a nuclear war is started over religion.

PeopleUnited says

That is not evidence that there are no good trees.

There are no good religions. There is absolutely nothing good that can be accomplished with religion that cannot be accomplished more reliably, more stably, and more honestly without religion. This includes morality, which is far better served by science than any religion.

More importantly, Christianity is not a good tree. It has done far more harm than good throughout history and even today in America specifically it does more harm than good.

Religion in general and Christianity in particular are neither necessary nor helpful in promoting moral behavior, peaceful coexistence, or deterring horrific crimes. I am an atheist, and I will put my moral code and my life upholding that moral code against any theist of any religion. I don't need any false god, especially one as morally bankrupt as the Christian god, to tell me the difference between right and wrong. Parents will not start smashing their babies heads against rocks if they stop believing in their god, but they might do exactly that if someone convinces them it is their god's will that they do so.

People become atheists for one simple reason. They are intelligent and rational persons and it becomes apparent that all faith is a lie. That is the only motivation behind atheism. In fact, it is the default behavior for human beings. Belief in gods and religion is the direct consequence of brainwashing, usually starting in early childhood and continuing into adulthood. That alone demonstrates how vile religion is. No good cause requires the brainwashing of anyone, especially children. That is intrinsically evil and dangerous. In effect, religion and faith are no different than indoctrination into any perverted worldview such as Nazism.

PeopleUnited says

Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

This is the exact same argument that every defender of evil makes. It is always a false analogy.

People who defend Islam say the exact same thing. Let's support and protect Islam. Not every Muslim is a terrorist. True, but Islam motivates people to become terrorists and it's not necessary for any good.

People who defend Nazism, and yes there are such people, say the exact same thing. Sure, Nazism wasn't a perfect ideology, but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. You cannot reform a fundamentally bad idea. It should be abandoned and replaced with good ideas. Religion is a fundamentally bad idea.

Religion is not the baby. It is the bathwater. There is absolutely no good reason to keep religion. Any good you think might come from your religion is better served by things that aren't inherently evil and intrinsically corruptible. Religion is a lie, but it is not a useful lie. It is a dangerous and completely unnecessary lie. There is no upside to keeping it. There is no downside to getting rid of it. And ultimately it would be immoral to promote a useful lie anyway.

Strategist says

That's true Dan. You clearly said several times that Christianity is a bigger threat than Islam

I said that Christianity is a bigger threat than Islam in America, not that Christianity is a bigger threat than Islam. Those two statements are obviously different in very important ways. If you cannot see that, then your reading comprehension needs work.

Islam is clearly a bigger threat in the Middle East because the Middle East is dominated by Islam. Their governments are controlled by Muslims and their religions are interwoven into government. This is exactly what makes Islam a greater threat in the Middle East, and it is also exactly what makes Christianity a greater threat in America. I don't see why a few people find this concept so difficult to understand. It's not that hard.

Strategist says

You also said the way to end the Islamic threat was by getting rid of Christianity.

Very very silly. I hope you are changing your mind.

Fighting irrationality with more irrationality is like fighting a fire with gasoline. It's a stupid idea.

You fight irrationality with rationality. You educate the population with science, mathematics, and reasoning. Doing this is a direct attack against all religions and the very concept of faith. Science, math, and reasoning demand the rejection of faith. Nothing is unquestionable.

Furthermore, the approach I advocate has empirically worked. It is the sole reason why religion has far less power and destructiveness in America and almost none in most of western Europe, obviously excluding recent Muslim immigration. My approach works, and history proves that. Why would I change my mind when all evidence supports this conclusion?

PeopleUnited says

Quigley says

To answer the original question: Islam

Which is why they must be converted, or they will kill/enslave us all.

If you converted Muslims to Christianity, they would simply continue killing in the name of Christ instead of Mohamed. It would also enable and accelerate the radicalization of today's Christian fundamentalist who will now have an environment to ferment their extremist ideas. You would effectively undo 400 years of secularization in the west and turn the west into the Middle East.

Dan8267 says

Second, you and I are completely irrelevant to the facts that

1. Your religion is a lie. Jesus was not divine, if he even existed at all, and did not rise from the dead. Nor did your god create the universe.

2. Your religion is a terrible moral example for all the reasons I listed above.

3. Your religion has done incredible harm to humanity.

4. Your religion is neither necessary nor desirable.

I've said more than once that false premises are the problem with your position.
The fact is that the opposite it true.
1. Jesus is the Son of God (the Creator of all things) who came to earth as a sacrifice for the sins of every man, woman and child. He died, rose and ascended into heaven.
2. The point of the Bible is to teach us that every human being is immoral and needs a Savior.
3. Jesus saves, without Him there is nothing but condemnation and death.
4. Without Jesus you will die in your sins.

There, I fixed it for you.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

You also said the way to end the Islamic threat was by getting rid of Christianity.


Very very silly. I hope you are changing your mind.

Fighting irrationality with more irrationality is like fighting a fire with gasoline. It's a stupid idea.

You fight irrationality with rationality. You educate the population with science, mathematics, and reasoning. Doing this is a direct attack against all religions and the very concept of faith. Science, math, and reasoning demand the rejection of faith. Nothing is unquestionable.

Agree and agree again.
But you did not address my accusation.

Dan said:

If you converted Muslims to Christianity, they would simply continue killing in the name of Christ instead of Mohamed. It would also enable and accelerate the radicalization of today's Christian fundamentalist who will now have an environment to ferment their extremist ideas. You would effectively undo 400 years of secularization in the west and turn the west into the Middle East.

Here is an example of what happens if/when the God deniers are in power.

Dan wants us to repeat that history.

Dan8267 says

If you converted Muslims to Christianity, they would simply continue killing in the name of Christ instead of Mohamed.

Where are all these Christians killing in the name of Christ?

Or are you suggesting that there is some sort of genetic/race component because most Muslims are Arabs/Africans and Asians?

PeopleUnited says

rando says

Good thing we liberated Kuwait from Saddam, right? He might have ended slavery there. Under US protection, the Kuwaitis get to keep their slaves.

Patrick

Good point, Saddam was a murderous prick but at least he kept a clean house. We didn't go to Iraq as liberators, that is for sure. It was the wrong thing to do for America, and for the world. A shameful part of American history.

https://culturalglimpse.com/2015/01/30/saddam-vs-king-of-saudi-arabia/

That's a great article, worth quoting:

A week ago an Iranian student emailed me. He was angry that I had written something negative about Saddam. He called Saddam a hero. I was surprised, not because he likes Saddam (there are many people who do). I was surprised because he’s Iranian. His country was at war with Iraq for nearly ten years.

I thought about the trip I took to Iraq in 2000, how safe Iraq was during that time. I thought about the honor that the Saudi King’s death is receiving, and the discrepancies and double standards in politics. I thought about the following facts:

Saddam

Protected Christians and encouraged women to wear western clothing (women were not veiled in Baghdad and those few who were only covered their hair)
Received the keys to the city of Detroit in 1980 after donating substantial amounts of money to a church in the city.helping build Chaldean churches
Credited with creating one of the strongest school systems in the Middle East.
Iraq won a UNESCO prize for eradicating illiteracy in 1982. Literacy rates for women were among the highest of all Islamic nations, and unlike most Middle East school systems, Iraqi education was largely secular.
Hated Osama Bin Laden
There were no terrorist groups inside Iraq while he was in power
He did not gas his own people (CIA officer Stephen C. Pelletiere, the agency’s senior political analyst on Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war, wrote in a New York Times article that Saddam Hussein has much to answer for in the area of human rights abuses. ”But accusing him of gassing his own people at Halabja as an act of genocide is not correct, because as far as the information we have goes, all of the cases where gas was used involved battles. These were tragedies of war.” He also wrote that these facts have “long been in the public domain but, extraordinarily, as often as the Halabja affair is cited, they are rarely mentioned.”

Saudi King

Permitted over 400 terrorist groups to exist in his country
Locked up four of his daughters into dark and suffocating rooms since 2002
Allowed beheading of citizens for crimes like apostasy and adultery
Prohibited movie theaters, social mixing, music schools, gyms for girls and Valentine’s Day
Prohibits women from traveling without permission or driving a car
Bans other religions: twelve Filipino Christians and a priest were arrested while attending a service in a private home, in October 2010. They were verbally charged with ‘blaspheming against Islam” and cordially banned for life from Saudi Arabia (quiet deportations are a new tactic of the religious police – it avoids the media scrutiny that heavy-handed arrests generate).
Allows anti-American hate speeches in their mosques

Dan8267 says

Science, math, and reasoning demand the rejection of faith. Nothing is unquestionable.

Your ignorance never ceases to amaze me. I already mentioned that one of my great uncles is a published geneticist and a Jesuit priest.

Would it kill you to become minimally informed on this topic which so clearly gets you so exercised?

The Catholic Church Is Not an Enemy of Science
https://newrepublic.com/article/122016/catholic-church-not-enemy-science

Dan8267 says

Islam motivates people to become terrorists and it's not necessary for any good.

Hence the motivation for this discussion of the roots of Islamic terrorism.

Dan8267 says

Religion is not the baby. It is the bathwater. There is absolutely no good reason to keep religion. Any good you think might come from your religion is better served by things that aren't inherently evil and intrinsically corruptible. Religion is a lie, but it is not a useful lie. It is a dangerous and completely unnecessary lie. There is no upside to keeping it. There is no downside to getting rid of it. And ultimately it would be immoral to promote a useful lie anyway.

And yet if what I said is true:

PeopleUnited says

I've said more than once that false premises are the problem with your position.

The fact is that the opposite it true.

1. Jesus is the Son of God (the Creator of all things) who came to earth as a sacrifice for the sins of every man, woman and child. He died, rose and ascended into heaven.

2. The point of the Bible is to teach us that every human being is immoral and needs a Savior.

3. Jesus saves, without Him there is nothing but condemnation and death.

4. Without Jesus you will die in your sins.

There, I fixed it for you.

Then it is you, the one who called it a lie who is promoting evil and therefore immoral.

I like the fact that you used the word immoral. It is a great word, a word that implies there is a universal standard by which things can be measured. Tell us Dan what standard would you use to measure what is moral vs immoral? I agree that lies are immoral but why are they immoral? What ideal are you claiming to uphold? What is the source of immorality?

PeopleUnited says

've said more than once that false premises are the problem with your position.

The fact is that the opposite it true.

1. Jesus is the Son of God (the Creator of all things) who came to earth as a sacrifice for the sins of every man, woman and child. He died, rose and ascended into heaven.

2. The point of the Bible is to teach us that every human being is immoral and needs a Savior.

3. Jesus saves, without Him there is nothing but condemnation and death.

4. Without Jesus you will die in your sins.

There, I fixed it for you.

There are no false premises in my position. I will now show how your premises listed above are false.

"Jesus is the Son of God (the Creator of all things) who came to earth as a sacrifice for the sins of every man, woman and child. He died, rose and ascended into heaven."

1. Your god does not exist. That is a fact, not an opinion. He no more exists than the elephant god Ganesha and even entertaining the plausibility of Yahweh over Ganesha is pure racism.
2. Therefore, your god did not create the universe. The universe was not created. It has existed since the beginning of time, whatever that is. This is by definition and therefore cannot be argued against. Time itself is part of the universe and therefore did not exist before the universe. Whether time or space are finite or contain boundaries is irrelevant.
3. Jesus was not the son of a god or a god. He is either a fictional character or a Jewish criminal condemned to death by his government.
4. Even if Jesus was some real person and cult leader, he did not die for the sins of man. There is no such thing as sin, and the entire premise of a human sacrifice to attone for evil is downright stupid and contradictory.
5. Jesus most certainly did not rise from the dead.
6. Heaven could not possibly exist. It is a silly notion that is easily debunked. No mother could be happy in heaven if her child were burning in hell. No person could be happy in heaven if the one who raped and murder her was also there because he turned to Jesus. Heaven could not make people perfectly happy without destroying their minds.

"The point of the Bible is to teach us that every human being is immoral and needs a Savior."

7. The Bible was written by many different people each of which had different and conflicting social and political agendas. This is why the Bible is full of contradictions. It was written by man, not by or inspired by your false god.
8. The Bible is completely wrong on morality, the history of the world, and the existence of a god. The Bible is full of false stories meant to be taken literally by their actual authors. The Bible is also full of immoral teachings that would shock any non-psychopathic person such as bashing babies' skulls on the rocks along riverbanks and raping prepubescent girls.
9. Only a fool thinks he needs a savior.
10. Savior is not a proper noun. It should not be capitalized.
11. Even if Jesus existed, he was no savior. Just another religious nut who would probably be locked up in prison or an insane asylum today.
12. Even the fictional character of Jesus was not a morally righteous person. He never condemned slavery, not even sex slavery of children, which was the greatest moral problem of his time.

"Jesus saves, without Him there is nothing but condemnation and death."

13. This is complete bullshit. However, it demonstrates why faith is inherently bad. The fact that you cannot accept under any circumstances that this assertion is false means you are incapable of acting wisely. Christian brainwashing in America today is dangerous. It is a far greater threat to our society than an Islamic terrorist organization. America will not fall to terrorism. It is an ineffective strategy and it is not an existential threat. The brainwashing of the American public actually has an impact on our nation at the highest levels in terms of brainwashed politicians and the brainwashed voters who support htem.

"Without Jesus you will die in your sins."

14. Ditto 13.

"There, I fixed it for you."

The only thing you have accomplished is proving my points beyond any doubt. Please talk some more.

www.youtube.com/embed/dMaK6k4oZ20

www.youtube.com/embed/IFOTnBz-PCk

We should just repeat the experiment with the bulls. If that experiment works, the Christian god is real. Otherwise, the Christian god is bullshit.

This video explains PeopleUnited.

www.youtube.com/embed/-j8ZMMuu7MU

Hey PeopleUnited, do you ever disagree with your god?

PeopleUnited says

Here is an example of what happens if/when the God deniers are in power.

Bullshit. Romans were theists.

So were these guys.

PeopleUnited says

Jesus is the Son of God (the Creator of all things) who came to earth as a sacrifice for the sins of every man, woman and child. He died, rose and ascended into heaven.

www.youtube.com/embed/rdxeqEoDXco

PeopleUnited says

Dan8267 says

Islam motivates people to become terrorists and it's not necessary for any good.

Hence the motivation for this discussion of the roots of Islamic terrorism.

And hence the importance of realizing it's not the particular mythology that matters, but that its faith, all faith, that is evil.

PeopleUnited says

I like the fact that you used the word immoral. It is a great word, a word that implies there is a universal standard by which things can be measured.

No, it doesn't imply that.

www.youtube.com/embed/44ilZq3R900

Quite frankly, if you cannot understand something as simple as why your god doesn't exist, there is no way your brainwashed mine could possibly understand my view of morality. This is demonstrated by the fact that you have throughout this thread misrepresented my arguments, ones that are far simpler and easier to understand than my view on morality because my moral worldview involves math and engineering.

PeopleUnited says

What ideal are you claiming to uphold? What is the source of immorality?

The evolution of social creatures specifically dealing with cooperation and reciprocity.

The Moral Animal: Why We Are, the Way We Are: The New Science of Evolutionary Psychology

PeopleUnited says

Tell us Dan what standard would you use to measure what is moral vs immoral?

This involves math. It certainly can be done. It is literally being done right now by sociologists and biologists. It is not something you could possibly understand as long as you refuse to let go of the lie of your god. So I will not attempt to explain it to you until you have demonstrated some degree of rationality.

I will simply summarize that morality can be mathematically model in exquisite detail and thus a moral artificial intelligent could certainly be created. The basis of the model would be game theory and evolutionary psychology.

Furthermore, treating morality as a science rather than as a religious matter is crucial. Christian moral failings are catastrophic today. We enslave and murder whales, who are sentient beings just like humans. The evidence of the sentience of whales is overwhelming. See the Black Fish documentary. Slaughtering or imprisoning them is therefore extremely immoral, but because Christians believe that man alone is created in their god's image and was given dominion over all other animals by that god, the idea of considering a whale to be a person is ridiculous to them. Essentially, Christianity is repeating the mistake of treating the Jews as subhuman, just now with other sentient animals on our planet. The immorality of this is just as great as the Holocaust and for the exact same reason. We are killing off entire species and causing massive suffering, and that is a moral failing heavily caused by Christianity directly and indirectly.

Another good example of humans not being the only people on Earth.

https://www.ted.com/talks/jane_goodall_on_what_separates_us_from_the_apes

On the ridiculousness of Christian morality.

www.youtube.com/embed/VWAUhadJzTk

I bet PeopleUnited actually believes in the story of the flood in Genesis. That makes him a condoner of kitten murder.

www.youtube.com/embed/7FrKcHVmXZQ

Don't buy into Pascal's Wager either. There are plenty of downsides to belief, plus a multitude of mutually exclusive faiths.

www.youtube.com/embed/GScdUIYXglA

PeopleUnited says

Tell us Dan what standard would you use to measure what is moral vs immoral? I agree that lies are immoral but why are they immoral? What ideal are you claiming to uphold? What is the source of immorality?

Dan8267 says

This involves math. It certainly can be done. It is literally being done right now by sociologists and biologists. It is not something you could possibly understand as long as you refuse to let go of the lie of your god. So I will not attempt to explain it to you until you have demonstrated some degree of rationality.

I will simply summarize that morality can be mathematically model in exquisite detail and thus a moral artificial intelligent could certainly be created. The basis of the model would be game theory and evolutionary psychology.

That is a cop out.

I have put my standard of morality forth. It is called the Bible. It tells us that every human being is immoral. It is clearly written and definable not some hypothetical.

What is your standard for morality sweetheart?

I agree that lies are immoral. But why are lies immoral?

What is the source of immorality?

Dan8267 says

2. Therefore, your god did not create the universe. The universe was not created. It has existed since the beginning of time, whatever that is. This is by definition and therefore cannot be argued against. Time itself is part of the universe and therefore did not exist before the universe. Whether time or space are finite or contain boundaries is irrelevant.

Again prove it. Oh, that's right you can't. Its your opinion.

We are better off taking Him at his word.

John 1New King James Version (NKJV)

The Eternal Word
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Dan8267 says

3. Jesus was not the son of a god or a god. He is either a fictional character or a Jewish criminal condemned to death by his government.

If you are so sure He is not the Son of God why are you so unsure about who He was. It sounds like you are unsure. I'm going to ask a more reliable witness. Someone who knew Him.

What did Peter say about Him?

King James Bible Matthew 16:16
And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Dan8267 says

4. Even if Jesus was some real person and cult leader, he did not die for the sins of man. There is no such thing as sin, and the entire premise of a human sacrifice to attone for evil is downright stupid and contradictory.

Tell us then, what was Jesus guilty of? Why was he killed? And if there is no such thing as sin then how can there be evil? If evil is not sin then what is evil?

Dan8267 says

5. Jesus most certainly did not rise from the dead.

Matthew chapter 28

After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.

2 There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. 4 The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.

5 The angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6 He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples: ‘He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.’ Now I have told you.”

Jesus later appeared to the disciples just as the angel said.

Dan8267 says

6. Heaven could not possibly exist. It is a silly notion that is easily debunked. No mother could be happy in heaven if her child were burning in hell. No person could be happy in heaven if the one who raped and murder her was also there because he turned to Jesus. Heaven could not make people perfectly happy without destroying their minds.

Well Dan, have you looked everywhere?

Here is a scene from the future.

Revelation Chapter 21

3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Dan8267 says

7. The Bible was written by many different people each of which had different and conflicting social and political agendas. This is why the Bible is full of contradictions. It was written by man, not by or inspired by your false god.

2 Timothy 3:16-17King James Version (KJV)
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Proverbs 30:5
Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.

Dan8267 says

8. The Bible is completely wrong on morality, the history of the world, and the existence of a god. The Bible is full of false stories meant to be taken literally by their actual authors.

PeopleUnited says

2 Timothy 3:16-17King James Version (KJV)

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Proverbs 30:5

Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.

Dan8267 says

9. Only a fool thinks he needs a savior.

Psalm 14:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.

Romans Chapter 3

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Dan8267 says

10. Savior is not a proper noun. It should not be capitalized.

Jesus is the Savior. There is only one Savior. Therefore it is a proper noun.

Dan8267 says

11. Even if Jesus existed, he was no savior. Just another religious nut who would probably be locked up in prison or an insane asylum today.

Again you don't sound to sure of yourself. Maybe we should ask someone who knew Him again.

Here is what happened on the day Jesus died, just minutes before His death.

Luke Chapter 23

39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[d]”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Dan8267 says

12. Even the fictional character of Jesus was not a morally righteous person. He never condemned slavery, not even sex slavery of children, which was the greatest moral problem of his time.

So now you accuse Jesus of sins of omission? Again, by what standard of morality do you indict Jesus?

Dan8267 says

"Jesus saves, without Him there is nothing but condemnation and death."

13. This is complete bullshit. However, it demonstrates why faith is inherently bad. The fact that you cannot accept under any circumstances that this assertion is false means you are incapable of acting wisely. Christian brainwashing in America today is dangerous. It is a far greater threat to our society than an Islamic terrorist organization. America will not fall to terrorism. It is an ineffective strategy and it is not an existential threat. The brainwashing of the American public actually has an impact on our nation at the highest levels in terms of brainwashed politicians and the brainwashed voters who support htem.

John chapter 8

12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

13 The Pharisees challenged him, “Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid.”

14 Jesus answered, “Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15 You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16 But if I do judge, my decisions are true, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true. 18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.”

19 Then they asked him, “Where is your father?”

“You do not know me or my Father,” Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.” 20 He spoke these words while teaching in the temple courts near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his hour had not yet come.

21 Once more Jesus said to them, “I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.”

22 This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?”

23 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

25 “Who are you?” they asked.

“Just what I have been telling you from the beginning,” Jesus replied. 26 “I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is trustworthy, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.”

27 They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up[a] the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.” 30 Even as he spoke, many believed in him.

14. Ditto 13.

I fixed it for you, again.

The only thing you have accomplished is proving my points beyond any doubt. Please talk some more. What is your standard/source of morality? I agree that lies are immoral but why are they immoral? Where does immorality come from?

In March 1786, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams went to London to negotiate with Tripoli's envoy, ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman (or Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). When they enquired "concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury", the ambassador replied:

It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy's ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once.[25]

Jefferson reported the conversation to Secretary of Foreign Affairs John Jay, who submitted the ambassador's comments and offer to Congress. Jefferson argued that paying tribute would encourage more attacks. Although John Adams agreed with Jefferson, he believed that circumstances forced the U.S. to pay tribute until an adequate navy could be built. The U.S. had just fought an exhausting war, which put the nation deep in debt. Federalist and Anti-Federalist forces argued over the needs of the country and the burden of taxation. Jefferson's own Democratic-Republicans and anti-navalists believed that the future of the country lay in westward expansion, with Atlantic trade threatening to siphon money and energy away from the new nation, to be spent on wars in the Old World.[26] The U.S. paid Algiers the ransom, and continued to pay up to $1 million per year over the next 15 years for the safe passage of American ships and the return of American hostages.[citation needed] A $1 million payment in ransom and tribute to the privateering states amounted to approximately 10% of the U.S. government's annual revenues in 1800.[27]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War

Dan8267 says

The evolution of social creatures specifically dealing with cooperation and reciprocity.

curious2 says

"libertarian" = uncharitable

Brief Aside, this is why "Envy", "Jealousy", "Equality", etc are never going to disappear, no matter how Libertarians, Old Fart Prager/Shapiro/Sowell type Conservatives, or Randroids want them to.

The reciprocity and cooperation principles are hardwired into the brain, and humans won't accept too much unfairness/inequity without complaint. The "Hack" around this is to propagandize those with power as being divine representatives or morally/racially/spiritually superior, therefore not subject to the same social controls.

Pharaoh Setontuffit defends his higher consumption of curds and whey because he's related to the Sun God and can't intercede to keep the Nile Flooding without extra sustenance. CEOs can't run a company without 100x the average worker pay because they have magic abilities to make decisions.

It's being going on since Ancient Egypt.

PeopleUnited says

That is a cop out.

Bullshit. You can't just use my counter-argument against your bullshit against my arguments when they do not apply to my arguments. This is a thinly veiled "I know you are, but what am I". The Pacman defense only works if you have a power pellet, and you don't.

PeopleUnited says

What is your standard for morality sweetheart?

I have many components in my moral standards including not manipulating people with lies. Hence, you fail to meet my moral standard. I'm not going to dumb down my morality so that it fits in your childish worldview. Doing so would completely misrepresent that morality. Again, you must accept that your god is false and morality doesn't come from some stupid supernatural creator to even begin to understand real morality.

PeopleUnited says

I agree that lies are immoral. But why are lies immoral?

There are many reasons why lies are immoral. The particular lies of Christianity are immoral for many reasons including, but not limited to, causing little girls to commit suicide, causing people to commit horrific acts like rape and murder and genocide, causing our government to reckless endanger tens of millions of lives if not the entire world with foolish climate change denial. I could go on and on.

PeopleUnited says

What is the source of immorality?

I've already answered that question in detail and gave your reference works that go into even greater detail.

PeopleUnited says

What ideal are you claiming to uphold? What is the source of immorality?

The evolution of social creatures specifically dealing with cooperation and reciprocity.

You obviously read this since you are responding to that post and quoting it.

PeopleUnited says

Dan8267 says

1. Your god does not exist. That is a fact, not an opinion. He no more exists than the elephant god Ganesha and even entertaining the plausibility of Yahweh over Ganesha is pure racism.

Prove it, and honey, try to do it without false accusations of racism.

First, you don't get to dodge racism when you engage in it. Calling racist bullshit racist is perfectly valid.

Second, I already did proved it on this thread and many others. There is no point in me repeating the step-by-step details as you would never accept any proof, empirical or a priori, that your god is false. Put simply, proof is irrelevant to you. You will always hold the lie to be true regardless of proof. Once more you demonstrate just how dangerous Christian brainwashing is.

PeopleUnited says

Dan8267 says

2. Therefore, your god did not create the universe. The universe was not created. It has existed since the beginning of time, whatever that is. This is by definition and therefore cannot be argued against. Time itself is part of the universe and therefore did not exist before the universe. Whether time or space are finite or contain boundaries is irrelevant.

Again prove it. Oh, that's right you can't. Its your opinion.

It is idiotic to claim that a clearly factual statement is an opinion. Whether or not your god created the universe or even exists is clearly not an opinion. The correct answer cannot vary from person to person.

You are boxed in by logic and thrashing out wildly because you know your captured.

PeopleUnited says

We are better off taking Him at his word.

Once more you demonstrate the dangers of Christian brainwashing. Your defense of your creation myth is that we're better off taking the word of a fictional character that he's not fictional. We have to assume the Bible is the word of god because it says it is the word of god and the word of god is unerring. Circular logic much? Anyone who has this kind of reasoning should not be allowed to vote for the exact same reasons we don't let other mentally ill people vote.

PeopleUnited says

Dan8267 says

3. Jesus was not the son of a god or a god. He is either a fictional character or a Jewish criminal condemned to death by his government.

If you are so sure He is not the Son of God why are you so unsure about who He was. It sounds like you are unsure.

What a load of shit. One can be absolutely sure some asshole in a book isn't a god even if it is questionable whether or not that asshole existed.

No human being is divine or supernatural. Anyone who claims otherwise is mentally ill. Delusion is mental illness.

PeopleUnited says

Tell us then, what was Jesus guilty of?

If he existed, then founding a religion that committed many genocides, enslavement, rape, murder, torture, infanticide, ... just to name a few things.

PeopleUnited says

Why was he killed?

If he existed and there is anything slightly truthful about the gospels -- and yes, that's a big IF -- then insurrection.

There is nothing sensible about atoning for evil through human sacrifice. The ridiculousness of such a notion is clearly illustrated in the DarkMatter2525 videos.

PeopleUnited says

And if there is no such thing as sin then how can there be evil? If evil is not sin then what is evil?

Sin is defined as "a transgression against divine law". There is no divine law because there is no god. Therefore, there is no sin. Logic is inescapable.

Evil is "profound immorality" and requires no god and nothing supernatural to be meaningful. Morality is derived from evolutionary developed solutions to the various problems of cooperation in group living within social species. The study of morality is a science, and morality makes sense just like any other science. No lies, no bullshit, no superstitions is needed to understand morality. Such things only prevent a true understanding of the subject matter.

Equations, not false myths, explain morality and allows us to refine and apply it.