patrick.net

Nobody says

My point is that when these people get rich or become successful, they don't want to give return to the government. So why should Warren Buffet pay less than 15% tax while I have to pay more? It is not fair. or is it? Are you saying the hard work and success also equates to less tax you have pay? I don't get it. You are not Warren Buffet. Then why are you protecting his asset?

If Warren Buffer is not cheating tax law, why do you give a shit? You can take the same tax shelters yourself. He's not doing anything illegal.

Oh, it's somehow not cool that he can take advantage of the same tax laws that apply to all of us because he's ultra rich? What if he only made $1 million a year like Bernie "I pay 13% tax" Sanders. Then it's all good?

You're basically arguing that success should be penalized.

Goran_K says

I ask again, did you actually read the article? The article was not about "bemoaning" the system. It was complaining about Top 20% having unfair advantages like a house in a nice zip code.

You didn't read the article, that's okay. Let's move on.

I read it and understood it. My comment was about your post, however. The part I quoted.Goran_K says

Society does value hard work over laziness, this is proven by the fact that there are lower middle class, and poor. If you are lazy in America, you will not succeed.

bwahahahaha. Wow are you naïve. Open your eyes, man. Does it make you feel better to pretend that the lower middle class and poor are all lazy?

Goran_K says

Passive investments do not cause unemployment and inequality. Unemployment is caused by a lack of marketable skill. The unemployment rate for doctors, tech specialist, lawyers, pharmacist is in the low single digits. None of those people are being sent to the unemployment line because of 'passive investments'

Passive investments absolutely cause inequality and unemployment. You need to think broadly--if all the unemployed leaned a marketable skill, then there WOULD be high unemployment in Drs, tech specialists, lawyers, etc. Aggregate demand is certainly reduced when inequality is at high levels as rich folks spend a much smaller percentage of their income than do lower middle class or the poor. Lower demand = fewer jobs.

Goran_K says

e.g - Let's redistribute earned wealth to people who did not earn it. Socialism. It's been tried before, it sucks. Even the biggest Scandinavian countries who have parts of socialism in their economy cannot touch the GDP growth of the United States. If you want socialism, why don't you move to a socialist country and try it out for a few years? Or put your money where your mouth is. Write a check to the US Treasury with 20% more of your income. Be the ideology you preach.

We already do this drama queen. I'm saying lets do it better. Like the US did in 1950. Or was that socialism too?

Goran_K says

If Warren Buffer is not cheating tax law, why do you give a shit? You can take the same tax shelters yourself. He's not doing anything illegal.

He's saying those shelters are bad policy. Let's change the laws. Seriously--how can you not see this simple point.

Goran_K says

You're basically arguing that success should be penalized.

bwahahaha. So, saying that a millionaire should pay the same tax rate as someone making $40K is PENALIZING him??

Are you effing kidding me???

Goran_K says

You're basically arguing that success should be penalized.

Don't interpret and assume. The success must be rewarded. No, they are not breaking a law. Don't be so stupid and ignorant. The rich can change the law anyway they want to. They can make us go to war. They can deceive us into thinking that giving the tax credit to the rich would some how make the middle class wealthier. You are the prime example. I will say it again, cause this is not going through your thick skull. If you are not Warren Buffet, why are you so concerned about changing the law to tax Warren Buffer more? It is not about punishment or penalty. Why should tax be? The current tax system is unusually obscured to enrich the 1%. I am saying let's change it, so everyone is taxed equally.

joeyjojojunior says

He's saying those shelters are bad policy. Let's change the laws. Seriously--how can you not see this simple point.

Goran is an idiot.

Strategist says

Highly skilled labor can be valued more than capital. But what value can you expect from a 9th grade school dropout?

No it's a moral question. Hard work is always better than lazyness. And that's that.

Strategist says

Not true. Capital plays an important role in creating jobs. You need capital to build factories, homes, cars etc.

Capital has a technical role, like a hammer, it doesn't detract from morality.

Goran_K says

If Warren Buffer is not cheating tax law, why do you give a shit? You can take the same tax shelters yourself. He's not doing anything illegal.

Tax shelters may not be illegal, in that case they're just immoral.

Heraclitusstudent says

Tax shelters may not be illegal, in that case they're just immoral.

OK, Goran is an idiot. But the tax shelters are not immoral, either. Think why we are giving the 1% the tax shelter? It was supposed to help the economy at the same time distribute the wealth. The theory is that everyone gets wealthy. Everyone is happy. Well, you know what happened. Less tax revenue, no more funding for the school. No more investment into kids and their future. This is hurting the economy, cause we have dwindling domestic skilled labor. Go to any companies. Do you see more home grown employees or foreign employees with accent? Our schools are educating the rich foreigners, and our kids are getting less and less opportunities. That's what I am talking about.

Liberal logic...if you have more than me it's racism and oppression that caused this.

Heraclitusstudent says

Strategist says

Highly skilled labor can be valued more than capital. But what value can you expect from a 9th grade school dropout?

No it's a moral question. Hard work is always better than lazyness. And that's that.

I can't dispute your statement. Hard work is always valued and respected more than laziness. However, a school drop out is not likely to have any marketable skill, unless they develop some on the job skills and become a plumber or something.

@Goran

Simple policy question. 15% tax rate on capitals gains and dividends vs 39.6% on wages. Why is someone with 25M net worth sitting in S&P index fund making 500K a year in dividends (assuming 2% yield) only paying 75k in taxes while a hard working professional earning 500K is paying closer to 150-170K in taxes? That looks like socialism for the rich guy.

tr6 says

@Goran

Simple policy question. 15% tax rate on capitals gains and dividends vs 39.6% on wages. Why is someone with 25M net worth sitting in S&P index fund making 500K a year in dividends (assuming 2% yield) only paying 75k in taxes while a hard working professional earning 500K is paying closer to 150-170K in taxes? That looks like socialism for the rich guy.

I think most people do have a problem with the 39.6% being high, not with 15% being low. I think wages should not be taxes more than 10% ever. I'd prefer a 0% tax on wages.
But you can ask the liberals, who just want to spend spend and spend more for high taxes.

Government collects 50cents of every dollar earned though taxes, and it's in the red constantly. Fucking insane, stop doing same shit and expecting different result! Stop taxing us.

tr6 says

Simple policy question. 15% tax rate on capitals gains and dividends vs 39.6% on wages. Why is someone with 25M net worth sitting in S&P index fund making 500K a year in dividends (assuming 2% yield) only paying 75k in taxes while a hard working professional earning 500K is paying closer to 150-170K in taxes? That looks like socialism for the rich guy.

Dividends are taxed at 15% because corporations have already paid full taxes on their earnings. Dividends are again taxed to the owners. It's a double taxation issue, which is why dividends are taxed less.

Goran_K says

Seriously, I challenge anyone to read this conclusion from Annie Lowrey, and not see how this author is just some loser who is jealous of people who actually accomplished something in life, unlike her, because they made good decisions and she didn't and now she can't make $150,000 a year because of "unfair advantages".

Members of the upper-middle class, as those viral stories show and Reeves writes, love to think of themselves as members of the middle class, not as the rich. They love to think of themselves as hard workers who played fair and won what they deserved, rather than as people who were born on third and think they hit a triple. They hate to hear that the government policies they support as sensible might be torching social mobility and entrenching an elite. That elite is them.

What a bitter Marxist bitch.

Bitter and ignorant. I know several people who lived in poverty as children who grew up, earned degrees and established marketable skills and now are upper middle income earners. If you are smart enough and willing to work hard you can become upper middle class from next to nothing.

The depressing thing is that welfare recipients get better health care or at least the same health care at lower cost than many middle income workers do. This is the only reason why universal health care is possibly a better system, if someone gets free healthcare at taxpayer expense, every tax payer should have access to the same care at the same subsidized cost.

PeopleUnited says

Bitter and ignorant. I know several people who lived in poverty as children who grew up, earned degrees and established marketable skills and now are upper middle income earners. If you are smart enough and willing to work hard you can become upper middle class from next to nothing.

It's not hard being part of the top 20% if you use some common sense. Being part of the top 1% is the real challenge.

Strategist says

Dividends are taxed at 15% because corporations have already paid full taxes on their earnings

You are not answering my question. One guy gets 500K from working and another guy gets 500K from having large net worth in an index fund. One guy pays double the tax. You think it's ok.

tr6 says

Strategist says

Dividends are taxed at 15% because corporations have already paid full taxes on their earnings

You are not answering my question. One guy gets 500K from working and another guy gets 500K from having large net worth in an index fund. One guy pays double the tax. You think it's ok.

Yes. I think it's OK.

"Dividends are taxed at 15% because corporations have already paid full taxes on their earnings. Dividends are again taxed to the owners. It's a double taxation issue, which is why dividends are taxed less."

That's just a rich man's excuse for why their taxes should be less than everyone else's. Every dollar in existence has been taxed hundreds of times probably.

ThreeBays says

To hit an effective rate of 30% takes $700k+ income, i.e. well into the 1%.

You not counting FICA, just the federal rate.

FortWayne says

Government collects 50cents of every dollar earned though taxes, and it's in the red constantly. Fucking insane, stop doing same shit and expecting different result! Stop taxing us.

Stop taxing productivity and start taxing rent seeking.

"Government collects 50cents of every dollar earned though taxes, and it's in the red constantly. Fucking insane, stop doing same shit and expecting different result! Stop taxing us."

How will collecting less revenue help get out of the red? Wouldn't it be better to spend less on things like the military where we spend more than the rest of the world combined?

joeyjojojunior says

Wouldn't it be better to spend less on things like the military where we spend more than the rest of the world combined?

Fort Wayne can't make the connection between spending a trillion dollars a year on warfare / defense contractor welfare queens and taxation.

Obligatory hoarding pictures:

joeyjojojunior says

bwahahahaha. Wow are you naïve. Open your eyes, man. Does it make you feel better to pretend that the lower middle class and poor are all lazy?

It's not pretend. If you're chronically poor in the U.S, it's your own fault. Name 5 countries with better income mobility in the world.

joeyjojojunior says

bwahahaha. So, saying that a millionaire should pay the same tax rate as someone making $40K is PENALIZING him??

Are you effing kidding me???

Yes if you're arbitrarily taxing him more just because he has made more. If he's following all tax laws, why do you want to redistribute more of his money to someone else?

Nobody says

Don't interpret and assume. The success must be rewarded. No, they are not breaking a law. Don't be so stupid and ignorant. The rich can change the law anyway they want to. They can make us go to war. They can deceive us into thinking that giving the tax credit to the rich would some how make the middle class wealthier. You are the prime example. I will say it again, cause this is not going through your thick skull. If you are not Warren Buffet, why are you so concerned about changing the law to tax Warren Buffer more? It is not about punishment or penalty. Why should tax be? The current tax system is unusually obscured to enrich the 1%. I am saying let's change it, so everyone is taxed equally.

Tin foil conspiracy.

What tax shelters is Warren Buffet taking advantage of that I cannot take advantage of? You keep referencing these nefarious "tricks" that Buffet is using to pay 15% tax. What are these tricks he's using? Can you not use the same tricks? I don't see anything unfair about that but please explain instead of using tin foil conspiracies about "the rich forcing us into war".

"Yes if you're arbitrarily taxing him more just because he has made more. If he's following all tax laws, why do you want to redistribute more of his money to someone else?"

I want to change the tax laws. That's the point.

But, extreme wealth inequality causes the economy to stop working. Money velocity falls, demand falls, unemployment increases. And it's a positive feedback loop, so as demand falls and unemployment rises, it causes demand to fall further and unemployment to rise even more. We've been over this already.

tr6 says

@Goran

Simple policy question. 15% tax rate on capitals gains and dividends vs 39.6% on wages. Why is someone with 25M net worth sitting in S&P index fund making 500K a year in dividends (assuming 2% yield) only paying 75k in taxes while a hard working professional earning 500K is paying closer to 150-170K in taxes? That looks like socialism for the rich guy.

Because the capital has ALREADY been taxed genius.

Also, there's no way in hell that someone making $60,000 or less is paying an effective 40% tax on his wages. The only people paying those effective tax rates are people clearly in the top 20%, the same people who do not want your socialist redistribution in the guise of "progressive taxes".

"It's not pretend. If you're chronically poor in the U.S, it's your own fault. Name 5 countries with better income mobility in the world."

More BS from Goran

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2014/01/income-mobility-us-terrible-least-its-not-getting-worse/

joeyjojojunior says

I want to change the tax laws. That's the point.

But, extreme wealth inequality causes the economy to stop working. Money velocity falls, demand falls, unemployment increases. And it's a positive feedback loop, so as demand falls and unemployment rises, it causes demand to fall further and unemployment to rise even more. We've been over this already.

Money velocity falls? Another "there is only one pie" theory. Money velocity falls because of socialist redistribution. You're taking away incentive for people to invest and create "new pies" in the economy. Your solution is creating the problem you're describing. We've been over this already; the end result is people end up stealing toilet paper, and eating their pets like in Venezuela.

joeyjojojunior says

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2014/01/income-mobility-us-terrible-least-its-not-getting-worse/

Another false conundrum by fake new purveyor Mother Jones.

My brother in law makes $250,000 a year as a corporate lawyer. His father is a multi-millionaire property developer. That doesn't mean my brother in law is "impoverished". That's a ridiculous point.

Show me who is impoverished and I can almost guarantee they've broken one of the 3 rules according to the Brookings Institute.

Dan8267 says

FortWayne says

Government collects 50cents of every dollar earned though taxes, and it's in the red constantly. Fucking insane, stop doing same shit and expecting different result! Stop taxing us.

Stop taxing productivity and start taxing rent seeking.

Someone disliked this lmao

We should tax stupidity, if you believe that taxing things we want less of, yields less of them.

This entire conversation is trapped in a Death or Oogoo paradox. Taxing labor vs taxing Capital, yet nary a peep about taxing Land! This in and of itself, is proof that we have an education problem.

Any real American Capitalist knows that the only way out is to eliminate all taxes on Labor, and replace them with Land taxes.

I'm tired of these Socialist failed losers, demanding my labor be taxed so heavily to fund their Socialist Wars and military, and their Socialist roads.

"Another false conundrum by fake new purveyor Mother Jones"

Because Goran says so? Are all these articles wrong as well?

http://www.epi.org/publication/usa-lags-peer-countries-mobility/
http://inequality.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/Pathways-SOTU-2016-Economic-Mobility-3.pdf

"Money velocity falls?"

Of course it does.

"Your solution is creating the problem you're describing. We've been over this already; the end result is people end up stealing toilet paper, and eating their pets like in Venezuela."

Funny, I don't recall people stealing toilet paper and eating their pets in the 1950s in the US. Do you have any articles detailing this? Because the end result I'm looking for is the US tax code of 1950

There's nothing funnier than claiming that high lawyer wages in our "Capitalist" system, are dictated by the Free Market.

If this were a Capitalist country, and wages were dictated by the Free Market, lawyers would be lucky to make minimum wage

"Exactly. You can't say "Oh I make less than my dad, I'm impoverished". That's such a ridiculous argument."

Nobody is saying that except your disingenuous argument.

"That's why claiming "making less than your father" makes you impoverished is such a bad argument. It's a tree in a forest without context."

And it's why nobody makes that argument except you.

joeyjojojunior says

I'm looking for is the US tax code of 1950

Yes, you want to go back to a time before globalization, international competition, and a globally interdependent economy.

You're 70 years late.