patrick.net

jazz_music says

WHY DON'T CONSERVATIVES WANT TO CONSERVE THE PLANET?

Because it's public property, not private property.

Pass a law stating that every acre of land lost to sea-level rising is replaced by confiscating an acre of land from the richest land owners, and then conservatives will care about climate change.

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

Send him to Hell. It awaits all REALTORs!

And priests and cardinals, apparently. BTW, the Realtor(TM) is clearly an amateur at this racket. A real pro would have joined the priesthood. Customers pay cash in advance and offer up their own children for molestation, then try to collect imaginary suites on a cloud after they're dead.

curious2 says

And priests and cardinals, apparently. BTW, the Realtor(TM) is clearly an amateur at this racket. A real pro would have joined the priesthood. Customers pay cash in advance and offer up their own children for molestation, then try to collect imaginary suites on a cloud after they're dead.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/28/asia/cardinal-pell-australia/index.html
Cardinal George Pell, one of the most senior members of the Catholic Church, has been charged with multiple historical sexual assault offenses in his home country of Australia, police said Thursday.

Strategist says

curious2 says

And priests and cardinals, apparently. BTW, the Realtor(TM) is clearly an amateur at this racket. A real pro would have joined the priesthood. Customers pay cash in advance and offer up their own children for molestation, then try to collect imaginary suites on a cloud after they're dead.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/28/asia/cardinal-pell-australia/index.html

Cardinal George Pell, one of the most senior members of the Catholic Church, has been charged with multiple historical sexual assault offenses in his home country of Australia, police said Thursday.

No religious leader is ever capable of molesting anyone. How can a man of God ever do such a thing. It's the fucking liberals who spread such horrible rumors.

Poe's Law

Strategist says

No religious leader is ever capable of molesting anyone. How can a man of God ever do such a thing

Well then there was a certain Prophet of a certain religion..

Fucking White Male says

You will find no stronger conservationists than hunters and fisherman. I would guess 95%+ Republicans.

This.

Yeah this thread is just more Me=good, you=bad nonsense.

Ex: Why don't democrats care about murder? Why don't democrats care about rape culture?
Why don't democrats care about poor people? Why don't democrats care about our environment? Why don't democrats care about war?

See that?! Just like chutes and ladders, anyone w a 6 year old intellect can play this game.

Presidential!

His communication is what got him elected AND simultaneously exposed the fake news media for what they are. You have to respect brilliance when you see it.

You can get all pissy about this if you want. Its pure wasted energy that further drives rational people away from respecting your judgement. (In short, Trump is trolling you brilliantly.)

Yup there's your guy that has Russian Prostitutes piss on his face.
Dissinvited someone that tried to invite themselves because he's grossed out by other people's body fluids.

Once again Noam Chomsky is correct. The conservative right is stupid as shit and was fooled by propaganda from big oil, coal, and gas. This is why the conservative right views climate change as a political and cultural issue instead of as a national and economic security issue that is established scientific fact. This is sheer stupidity on the part of the right, and what makes them unforgivably and hopelessly stupid is their unwillingness to admit this truth.

jazz_music says

except for our beloved capitalists

In what economic system do you find a lack of selfishness? The further you get from free markets, the greater the wealth disparity, the greater the poverty rates, and the less freedom the average person has for personal decision making.

How about you compare the pollution levels of capitalistic vs socialistic countries? Then come back and tell me how well the environment is doing N Korea, China, Venezuela, or the old USSR.

I like this, not Ivory tower Obama. I thought you lefties would have figured it out by now-I need a public servant not a demigod sitting atop a mountain speaking in latin.

Dan8267 says

that is established scientific fact.

What exactly are the facts that you feel are established? Climate change has indeed been politicized. In fact, most of the disagreement stems from the political reactions to global warming.

Although, I rarely see anyone discuss the facts in an intellectually honest way. Even in this video, Noam rolls through about 3 huge assumptions, then goes on to create a strawman that boils down to "those who dont agree w me are ignorant." The funniest part to me was hearing him piss on the opinion of mere meteorologists, when Noam himself is a goddamned linguist. HAHA.

As long as the establishment uses global warming as an excuse to tax the average person in favor of the rich and ruling classes, this conversation is doomed to failure.

Don't dish out if you can't take it back. Lefties-I can say what I want-he said something back to me-the end of western civilization is here-stop-or don't till 2020.

CBOEtrader says

His communication is what got him elected AND simultaneously exposed the fake news media for what they are. You have to respect brilliance when you see it.

You can get all pissy about this if you want. Its pure wasted energy that further drives rational people away from respecting your judgement. (In short, Trump is trolling you brilliantly.)

It took you until 2016 Donald Trump, to see the media for what they are?

Where have you been the past few decades?

Glad to see the Right wingnuts try to defend a 5 time DRAFT DODGING COWARD.

look here's the fucking deal. If Donald Trump does anything, it's a win. So shut the fuck up stupid liberals. Us Republicans are finally in charge for once, so we're gonna fix the mess yous created, so help us God. I prefer to speak in the plural form of I, we speak for us.

Trump was winning when he bellowed on about the wall for over a year and then given the chance to do something about it, being the great negotiator and businessman we is, we balked on the wall for more important things like Obamacare repeal and replace, because we been going on about that ever since back before it even was a thing. SUCK MY DICK. Winning

CBOEtrader says

His communication is what got him elected AND simultaneously exposed the fake news media for what they are. You have to respect brilliance when you see it.

You can get all pissy about this if you want. Its pure wasted energy that further drives rational people away from respecting your judgement. (In short, Trump is trolling you brilliantly.)

Tenpoundbass says

Yup there's your guy that has Russian Prostitutes piss on his face.

Dissinvited someone that tried to invite themselves because he's grossed out by other people's body fluids.

lostand confused says

I like this, not Ivory tower Obama. I thought you lefties would have figured it out by now-I need a public servant not a demigod sitting atop a mountain speaking in latin.

The left spends day and night focusing on him negatively, I don't see why he is wrong in defending himself.

jazz_music says

without ever clicking on the link provided in the OP:

An info-graphic is not science. Have you ever done complex modeling? We humans have been notoriously bad at properly applying complex models to predictions and real life risk management. Do you remember 2008? The housing market is many, many, many less complex than these climate models. THE ONLY intellectually honest approach would be to give a RANGE of possibilities w estimates of % chances for each incremental piece of the range.

Even then, you still haven't answered my question. What do you feel are the established facts? If all you are saying is "people fuck up the planet", then we agree. Thats the easy part.

The hard part is deciding what to do about it. This second part is the where politicized nonsense takes over and we get crap deals like the Paris Accords.

CBOEtrader says

What exactly are the facts that you feel are established?

None because I don't feel. I know. I could relist all the climate change facts and the references. You can also do a Google search of "climate change site:patrick.net" and see the various threads and comments I wrote on it. Repeating this information is pointless.

The real question is what the hell would it take for you to publicly accept that man-made climate change is real, is important, and must be addressed in policy? I suspect your position is entirely based on what you believe you personal financial interests are. And the fact is, if you haven't realized that climate change is already negatively impacting the economy and thus, at least indirectly, your material quality of life, then I doubt any facts will make you realize this.

If you understand anything about business, then you should realize that a problem become exponentially more expensive to solve the longer you let it fester. There will be no miracle technology to cheaply solve climate change. There is nothing in the entire history of technological advancement that would suggest a miracle technology would ever be created to solve the problem of climate change, nonetheless one that is just right around the corner.

Letting climate change and pollution run unchecked is just bad business management. Unfortunately, if the costs are officially recorded in the ledgers, the bean counters pretend those costs don't even exist. This is sheer stupidity.

CBOEtrader says

jazz_music says

without ever clicking on the link provided in the OP:

An info-graphic is not science. Have you ever done complex modeling?

NASA has done this, and this is their field.

Show deniers an infographic, and they say it's an oversimplification. How them the data behind the graphic, and they say it's too complicated to understand. Image if we treated other problems like this. Imagine if we did nothing about terrorism because it's too complicated. Imagine if we let the whole banking system collapse because it's too complicated to manage.

Hey, I've done the whole "we're in the same tribe thing".

Dan8267 says

If you understand anything about business, then you should realize that a problem become exponentially more expensive to solve the longer you let it fester.

Dan8267 says

Letting climate change and pollution run unchecked is just bad business management.

Dan8267 says

as a national and economic security issue

But there comes a point where all the patronizing doesn't make a difference and you have to shame someone and lower his social status for promoting debunked lies or doing something that threatens the nation or entire species. Otherwise those tribal instincts will cause our species to end just like 95% of all species have gone extinct.

Humanities survival is not guaranteed. It never has been. Foolishness can no longer be tolerated. We simply cannot afford to make a single extinction-level mistake.

jazz_music says

Now that there is no such thing as job security, EVERYONE'S life really does depend on conforming to the dominant tribal identifications

Actually, class, not race or gender or orientation, is the tribalism of the 21st century. The rich white guy is more likely to hang out with a rich Indian or Chinese guy than a white STEM worker or a white coal miner or a white middle-tier manager. Class is everything in the 21st century.

They want to conserve the social and religious structure of the 1950s. They long ago stopped caring about conserving the environment. They sometimes say that they care about the 'real' environmental problems, but they tend to disregard the problems that environmental scientists identify as important.

Yeah, I liked that quote by justme.

Anyone who says, "Temperatures [or water levels] will rise" X, are wrong. That is not a scientific conclusion. Science is based on odds and reason. It is not about absolutes. There is almost no such thing.

Dan8267 says

None because I don't feel. I know.

This is how I know your opinion in BS. No scientist would EVER say he KNOWS something as complex as climate change model predictions. A scientist would be able to very clearly state what he knows for certain, as well as what he expects based on data. He would furthermore give standard deviations from his expectation, as well as point out the larger assumptions upon which he is basing that expectation.

No scientist would ever state "I KNOW". "I KNOW" is something a megalomaniac programmer who is desperate to prove himself smart would say.

CBOEtrader says

This is how I know your opinion in BS. No scientist would EVER say he KNOWS something as complex as climate change model predictions.

https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/

Climate change: How do we know?

Scientific evidence for warming of the climate system is unequivocal.

The evidence for rapid climate change is compelling: Sea level rise, Global temperature rise, Warming oceans, Shrinking ice sheets, Declining Arctic sea ice, Glacial retreat, Extreme events, Ocean acidification, Decreased snow cover

Reality just completely contradicted your statement that "No scientist would EVER say he KNOWS something as complex as climate change model predictions". Are you willing to admit that you were wrong?

CBOEtrader says

Science is based on odds and reason. It is not about absolutes.

No, this is not how science works. You drop a penny from a height of 20 meters and science tells you with certainty how long it will take the penny to hit the ground and how fast it will be going.

jazz_music says

Successful polluters have hired the EXACT same advertising firms to sell their message.

Which firms? I'm gonna guess you pulled this out of your ass, and there is zero truth to your claim. (Like most of what you say.)

jazz_music says

and now evidently doesn't think it works.

Yet again you fail to grasp the nuance of a complex situation. Complex modeling is a tool that most humans, including scientists, fail to use properly. If the conclusion is "Temperatures willll rise X" then they aren't using complex modeling properly.

Dan8267 says

CBOEtrader says

Science is based on odds and reason. It is not about absolutes.

No, this is not how science works. You drop a penny from a height of 20 meters and science tells you with certainty how long it will take the penny to hit the ground and how fast it will be going.

The physics of a penny falling from a specific height is a mathematical formula that we can easily test and recreate over and over.

Scientific theories, otoh, can never by definition be proven. They can only be disproved.

Complex modeling used to forecast future events aren't comparable to dropping a penny. You seem smart enough to at least understand that much.

Anyone who says "I KNOW" and/or "Temperatures will X" aren't scientists and should be dismissed.

@Verified Twitter Liberals(tm):
Orange Hair!
Big Hands!
Wife was Slovak Escort Whore!
Cheeto Face!
His kid is autistic and should be beaten!

@realDonaldTrump
Mika bleeding from facelift

@Verified Twitter Liberals:
Waaaaaaauuuugh! Did you hear what HE said? Totally beyond the PALE!! Sexist!

Also it is getting tired. liberals are the jihadis-they have one position and go into fits if someone dares call them out. Hope Trump gives the cover for more people to start fighting back and calling the fools out. it is time to end this decades old PC culture.

errc says

In what way is he providing a sense of law and order? It seems that he is promoting disorder and lawlessness from what i see, so it's a dead ass honest question.

How so? He wants immigrtaion laws to be followed. he passed the executive order and took it through the courts and won -temporarily at least. Mika and Joe have been calling him names, a thug, even sang a rock song about him-yeah-Trump decided to respond in kind. No threats, just responded in kind-which the elft is not used to. They always thought they were above the fray, can do what they want and nobody dare question them or call them out. I really appreciate that.

CBOEtrader says

The physics of a penny falling from a specific height is a mathematical formula that we can easily test and recreate over and over.

Everything in the universe is math. And if we can't use math to determine climate, then WTF confidence can you have in the mathematical models of economics and stock trading? Those things are at least as complicate of systems with at least as many feedbacks as climate. Yet no one says they won't make financial decisions based on those models.

The fact is that climate change is well understood, and if we ignore the problem, it's out of foolish short-term greed, not because the models are bad. Again, I ask what exactly would it take for you to support ending pollution and mitigating climate change? I suspect there is nothing that would cause you to support the environment because you simply don't value the environment at all, and are only concerned about your immediate financial interests. That's the real issue in every debate on environmentalism. Some people just value money and don't care about other things.

Those people are foolish. Environmental management is an economic concern. The vast majority of our wealth is in the form of an extremely pleasant environment that is highly conducive to human existence. The monetary costs of restoring this environment after breaking it would be orders of magnitude greater than the short-term wealth gained by wrecking the environment. You think that anti-pollution laws are expensive? What until you see the taxes needed to terraform the Earth back to a livable state!

The fact is that the only way to get the political will to protect the environment is to tie the wealth of people like you to the protection of the environment by taxing the shit out of polluters. If people like you can steal environmental wealth from the public, then the public should have the power to redistribute your wealth back to them. Only when that happens will mankind stop being completely foolish about the global ecosystem. Just remember, if we cannot tackle this problem now with common sense anti-pollution laws, then there will have to be a massive seizure of wealth to deal with the much larger problem that we let grow.

CBOEtrader says

Scientific theories, otoh, can never by definition be proven. They can only be disproved.

Jump off the cliff if your statement means we should not have confidence in scientific theories.

The fact is that the scientific method provides far greater evidence than that used in our court systems to convict people of capital crimes. We literally sentence people to death based on evidence orders of magnitude inferior to the evidence of confirmed scientific theories.

Hell, there is far more evidence that man-made climate change is happening right now than there is that George Washington fought in the American Revolution. You have a mere dozen or so lines of relatively flimsy evidence for the General Washington theory, whereas there are literally tens of thousands of independent lines of evidence precisely confirming man-made climate change without any contradictions in the evidence from all across the world. It is far more ridiculous to deny man-made climate change than to deny that George Washington fought in the American Revolution.

#lawyered

Well there was that national enquirer thing but we all know we can't take the NI seriously!

lostand confused says

No threats, just responded in kind-which the elft is not used to. They always thought they were above the fray, can do what they want and nobody dare question them or call them out. I really appreciate that.

lostand confused says

PC culture.

PC culture is one thing, basic human dignity is an other.

Quigley says

He's not "above the fray" like Obama pretended to be (while completely ignoring the needs of his constituents). So what? Have you watched any TV lately? Nobody is that way anymore! Reality stars own the airwaves, spewing brash arrogance and stupid personal attacks.

Reality TV brought down the world to its level of stupidity and brash arrogance.
I guess we have a president we deserve.