patrick.net

ACA is taxing middle class, not the rich. You people still don't get it

Must repeal

errc says

Are you being serious? People were allowed to Just Say No prior to HeritageFoundationCare. If you were smart enough to see what a disgusting racket private Health Insurance is, you could simply choose not to participate. HeritageFoundationCare made it so that you had to pay a hefty tax if you were smart enough to not buy health insurance. That made the poor that much poorer, while the rich just kept getting richer

For certain, there were winners and losers from the bill. Young, healthy folks who didn't get health insurance from their employers were losers. As were the very rich who were forced to pay higher taxes. Again--I've yet to see anything that shows inequality growing. And the strongest evidence that ACA hurt the wealthy can be seen from the fact that the Koch Bros. and other 1%ers are all strongly in favor of repeal. They wouldn't be trying to repeal it if it wasn't hurting their bottom line.

curious2 says

They did well in major MSM markets, due to overwhelming MSM support, partly related to outspending Republicans 2:1. The Presidential nominee's entire popular vote margin was less than her margin in California alone. She got a similar share in NY, and more than 90% in DC. Outside CA, she lost the popular vote and the electoral college. Outside the major MSM markets, it was a landslide loss. And if you ever watch the evening "news", pay attention to who pays that piper: last I saw, an outright majority of ads were for drugs, and half of those were for drugs you aren't even allowed to buy without an Rx. IOW, the MSM worldview results primarily from the Gospel according to PhRMA. PhRMA endorsed Obamneycare, in exchange for hundreds of billions of extra $$$ in government subsidies, and the legislation has reinforced PhRMA power tremendously, especially among Democrats. You have no explanation for why Democrats won in 2008 but lost everything since enacting Obamneycare in 2010, because you d...

lol--yes, Dems did better where people actually live. And Dems performed much better as education levels of voters increased. Do you believe that smarter and more educated people are more susceptible to propaganda?

There are lots of explanations for the results of the last few elections-I'd be happy to discuss each election cycle.

curious2 says

Also, kindly tell minimum wage workers that they're not required to pay billionaire Bill McGuire every month

Typical. Posting an article that has nothing to do with your statement and pretend it supports your theory.

joeyjojojunior says

I've yet to see anything that shows inequality growing.

None so blind as those who will not see.

joeyjojojunior says

more educated people are more susceptible to propaganda?

Evidently, yes: on the left, the most vulnerable to "fake news" echo chambers are college graduates. As Noam Chomsky observed, the most educated are the most indoctrinated. It takes a while to recover from SFSU, for example, where wearing dreadlocks is "cultural appropriation." I've met Berkeley grads who are similarly afflicted, and look at what happened at Evergreen. You write like an educated partisan, illustrating Chomsky's point.

Among all voters over 40yo, Democrats lost the popular vote, despite outspending Republicans 2:1. So, unless you imagine that people become stupid by 40, you might want to retract your assertion about "smarter" voters. Basically, voters who could remember Democrats' prior campaigns had seen this movie before.

joeyjojojunior says

I'd be happy to discuss each election cycle.

By all means, please post your theory as to why Democrats won both Houses of Congress and the White House in 2008, but lost everything after enacting Obamneycare. Try to include some reference to the President spinning 180 degrees and endorsing what he had previously denounced, when it was called "Hillary's Plan." Also address PolitiFact's 2013 "lie of the year," and why Democrats lost. Again, you have yet to explain your claim that Democrats didn't have power 2009-11, when Republicans do have power now. Evidently, in your mind, the extent of your "theory" is that everything is always the fault of "the other" side, which indicates the symmetry among partisans of "both" major factions.

curious2 says

You write like an educated partisan, illustrating Chomsky's point.

Example please? Is it partisan to rightly remind you that more people voted for Dems than Reps in the last election? Or to point out that the super rich hate ACA and are the ones behind the repeal propaganda? According to you, they are trying to reduce their incomes then?

curious2 says

Among all voters over 40yo, Democrats lost the popular vote

bwahahaha. So, according to you, age is a better indication of "smart" than education level? Really? Ask scammers who they would rather target, a 70 yr. old woman or a 35 yr. old man. Then get back to me about who is more susceptible to propaganda.

curious2 says

By all means, please post your theory as to why Democrats won both Houses of Congress and the White House in 2008, but lost everything after enacting Obamneycare. Try to include some reference to the President spinning 180 degrees and endorsing what he had previously denounced, when it was called "Hillary's Plan." Also address "the lie of the year", and why Democrats lost.

Sure--ACA certainly had a lot to do with it. It gave the Reps a huge propaganda tool which the Koch Bros. used to their extreme advantage. It energized the Republican base and got them to the polls in 2010 while Dems stayed home. Then you can add in the gerrymandering of House seats, voter suppression laws in many states, et. al.

curious2 says

None so blind as those who will not see.

If you post a relevant link attributing higher inequality to ACA, I'm all eyes and ears.

joeyjojojunior says

Example please?

See basically all of your comments. At the national level, you seem unable to fault Democrats for anything, and you fail even to acknowledge they had power 2009-11. Either you are paid by a DNC "consulting" firm, or blinded by partisanship. Of course, if you want to deny being educated, go ahead.

As for Obamneycare, notice how polls changed in 2009, when the President abandoned what he had campaigned on and "changed his mind" to endorse what he had campaigned against, when it was called "Hillary's Plan." Polls swung from support to opposition, and his net approval rating fell from +40 to zero. Obamneycare polled around -10 from 2009-2017, when House Republicans managed to propose something even worse. This thread is actually about the Senate bill, but you haven't really provided any insight about that either: for example, which companies would profit less, and which more.

As for age, check the linked exit survey of voters 40-64.

joeyjojojunior says

If you post a relevant link attributing higher inequality to [Obamneycare], I'm all eyes and ears.

I've posted several. You have yet to post anything saying HeritageFoundationCare reduced inequality, which has increased including both income and lifespans. You illustrate how Democrats have managed to lose repeatedly while raising more money than ever before.

In case you don't read the links to polls 2009-17, here is a picture for you, showing polls 2009-11. This chart is actually from HuffPo, which overrepresents push polls from PPP (aka Partisan Push Polling) and the Kaiser HMO empire (which oversampled Democrats to overstate support for the legislation):

curious2 says

At the national level, you seem unable to fault Democrats for anything

You seem to have a severe case of confirmation bias. I've faulted Dems for many things in my posts.

curious2 says

This thread is actually about the Senate bill, but you haven't really provided any insight about that either: for example, which companies would profit less, and which more.

I did provide insight actually, posting which classes would pay more and which classes would pay less. You seem to have ignored that.

curious2 says

I've posted several

You've posted several links. Unfortunately, none are relevant to the discussion. As is your usual modus operandi.

curious2 says

You have yet to post anything saying HeritageFoundationCare reduced inequality, which has increased including both income and lifespans

I did, but I guess you ignored it.

curious2 says

In case you don't read the links to polls 2009-17, here is a picture for you, showing polls 2009-11. This chart is actually from HuffPo, which overrepresents push polls from PPP (aka Partisan Push Polling) and the Kaiser HMO empire (which oversampled Democrats to overstate support for the legislation):

The power of propaganda.

joeyjojojunior says

I've faulted Dems for many things in my posts.

I did see one comment where you blamed Illinois D&R for IL's current troubles. Can you cite examples of blaming Democrats for anything at the national level? Last I saw, you couldn't even acknowledge they had power 2009-11.

joeyjojojunior says

which classes

Your focus on "classes" appears to have caused you to miss the issue: companies.

joeyjojojunior says

propaganda

was invented long before 2009, and since then it's been mainly in the direction of advertising Obamneycare.

joeyjojojunior says

I did, but I guess you ignored it.

That's dishonest. I addressed your lone link above. The topic is the medical insurance bill, but you insist on veering off to other provisions.

Since you've now fallen from mere partisanship to outright lying, I am going to stop wasting time on you.

curious2 says

Can you cite examples of blaming Democrats for anything at the national level?

Sure--I have said multiple times that the Obama administration was pretty crappy on human rights. Dems are stupid for talking about impeaching Trump. Many centrist Clinton type Dems became too neoliberal and too like Republicans. Clinton was a horrible candidate and I said so on many occasions.

curious2 says

Your focus on "classes" appears to have caused you to miss the issue: companies.

I think I'm seeing your problem--you're so narcissistic that you believe only issues you care about matter. This entire back and forth began when you replied to my comment about how the Senate bill will help 1%ers and hurt the poor. So, clearly that was the original issue. You might like to also talk about its effect on private industry, which is fine, but don't pretend that is "the" issue.

curious2 says

was invented long before 2009, and since then it's been mainly in the direction of advertising Obamneycare.

Propaganda has been around since the US was founded, for sure. Not sure how that matters though. But it is far, far, far, far in the direction of opposing ACA. If you can't admit this, then you are way too far gone to have a rational discussion.

curious2 says

That's dishonest. I addressed your lone link above. The topic is the medical insurance bill, but you insist on veering off to other provisions.

Since you've now fallen from mere partisanship to outright lying, I am going to stop wasting time on you.

I can only hope you aren't lying here. You are right though--you didn't ignore it, you quoted it and then posted several links that did not address my point, as is your usual way. Although calling that "addressing" is probably a lie.

joeyjojojunior says

you're so narcissistic that you believe only issues you care about matter.

LOL - you don't get to feign altruism while defending legislation that resulted in Americans dying on average sooner and generally poorer, widening the disparity in lifespans between rich and poor, and enriching further Bill McGuire and Billy Tauzin at the expense of everyone else. Perhaps you are IRL closely related to Bill or Billy, and hope to inherit, and thus you care only about preserving their lemon socialist fiefdoms.

The issue in this thread is the Senate medical insurance bill, which would change the existing Obamneycare legislation. You seem to focus only on changes to the tax code, while ignoring the insurance provisions. I tried to steer you back to the insurance provisions, which would affect companies in the industry. I hoped you might say something useful. You seem to have misinterpreted. Maybe you lack reading comprehension. Perhaps I should use a metaphor from a book you might recall: each bill combines green eggs and ham. You keep writing about the green eggs. This thread is about the ham, i.e. the pork, i.e. the Senate's lemon socialist medical insurance bill.

joeyjojojunior says

far in the direction

I don't know what you're looking at, but in CA it's wall-to-wall in favor of Obamneycare. Especially on national TV, e.g. PBS Newshour has become a relentless mandatory insurance sales outlet since around the time UnitedHealthGroup (Hi Bill McGuire!) became a sponsor. Most of the ads on the commercial news are for drugs, and half of those are for drugs you can't even buy without an Rx. Other ads on radio and TV are very often for insurance, including the state advertising the mandatory insurance site, and the lemon socialist companies (e.g. the Kaiser HMO empire) telling everyone to "thrive" by submitting to the Kaiser empire. Maybe if you're watching a lot of Faux Noise, you might catch some propaganda in the opposite direction, but around here it's a tsunami of advertising for the existing scheme, which the Senate bill would change.

The BS "news" on TV (including now PBS "news") is very heavily influenced by both MICs, as are the RNCe and DNCe. They want more wars and more pills. From "the beauty of our weapons" on MSNBC to praying (literally, Mark Shields said that) for Obamneycare on PBS, it's a tsunami of propaganda. I don't know where you've been looking if you haven't seen it. Maybe it's confirmation bias on your part: you see only one side of the story presented, and assume it must be the "right" side, and thus every time you see it you mistake that confirmation for "news" when it's in fact propaganda.

joeyjojojunior says

Dems are stupid for talking about impeaching Trump.

There, at least, we agree. Somehow I haven't seen you saying that before. Links? I had hoped Senate Democrats would propose amendments to the Senate bill to make it more like what the President promised, so they could campaign next year saying 'here's what he promised, we wrote legislation to do what he said, Republicans blocked it, therefore give us control of the Senate so we can enact what he campaigned on.' Instead, they remain lost in TDS, renouncing the President and all of his works. They can't stand the fact that he isn't what they pretended, and they don't want to admit they misled their voters.

"LOL - you don't get to feign altruism while defending legislation that resulted in Americans dying on average sooner and generally poorer, widening the disparity in lifespans between rich and poor"

It's way too early to judge the effect of ACA on life expectancy, as you well know.

"The issue in this thread is the Senate medical insurance bill, which would change the existing Obamneycare legislation. You seem to focus only on changes to the tax code, while ignoring the insurance provisions. I tried to steer you back to the insurance provisions, which would affect companies in the industry"

Yes, I'm focused on the tax code changes, which are very large and very important. The question is why are you trying to minimize the effects of those changes?? Why are you desperately trying to steer the conversation somewhere else. Anywhere else. Why? You keep saying that this thread is about the Senate bill, but when I post about the effects of the Senate bill, you then claim it's about something else... You're getting as bad as McGee.

"I don't know what you're looking at"

I'm looking at all the reports and articles from 2009/2010. The anti-ACA propaganda was running fast and wild.

"They can't stand the fact that he isn't what they pretended, and they don't want to admit they misled their voters."

I wish they'd just let him show the public that he isn't what he pretended either. Treat him with the respect the office deserves and watch him fail. Just get out of his way.

joeyjojojunior says

It's way too early to judge the effect of ACA on life expectancy, as you well know.

That's one of your many comments that undermine your credibility. Democrats took power in 2009, and enacted Obamneycare in 2010. Life expectancy stopped increasing in 2011, and fell in 2015. The 2016 data aren't available yet, but America went five years with no increase in life expectancy, amid huge spending increases. Forecasts for 2016 data predicted another decrease, only in America, where medical errors are now the third leading cause of death. In nearly all other times and places, life expectancy increased unless there was a huge disaster, e.g. war or plague. You defend infinite subsidies for toxic placebos, massive price increases on generic drugs, etc.

joeyjojojunior says

Why are you desperately trying to steer the conversation somewhere else. Anywhere else. Why?

I addressed the tax changes above. The medical insurance provisions are about life and death, and they're more complicated. The current system is killing people. You're so narcissistic that you don't care at all the widening disparity in lifespan between rich and poor, as long as the tax code does what you want it to do, and you can't focus on any of the other provisions of the Senate bill. Generic drug prices have soared since Obamneycare, and I don't see much in the Senate bill that would change the pattern. Does it accelerate approval of generic competitors, as other legislation might? Have you actually read it or only assumed what you called the Cliff's Notes (which wren't even Cliff's Notes)? Try citing specific provisions related to insurance. Sections 104&105 would help somewhat to reduce the deficit and relieve some of the absurd pricing pressure, for example; section 104 alone would reduce the deficit by $30bn/yr.

joeyjojojunior says

The anti-ACA propaganda was running fast and wild.

The pro-Obamneycare propaganda was running faster and more widely, with more funding, including the evening news brought to you primarily by PhRMA. You seem to blame the existence of people telling different sides for the fact that people opposed the legislation; you prefer perhaps a partisan echo chamber where only the official propaganda is presented.

Why do you always refer to HeritageFoundationCare as Obamneycare?

errc says

Why do you always refer to HeritageFoundationCare as Obamneycare?

I've used both terms, and opposed all three versions. Heritage Foundation proposed the individual mandate to buy insurance from corporate sponsors around 1990, but disowned the subsequent legislation, which was much more bloated and expensive. Obama and Romney signed proudly the legislation many called Obamacare and before that Romneycare, hence Obamneycare.

"That's one of your many comments that undermine your credibility. Democrats took power in 2009, and enacted Obamneycare in 2010. Life expectancy stopped increasing in 2011, and fell in 2015."

lol--only in your deluded world. You have one year of noisy data and are attempting to attribute cause and effect? MIsleading at best and more likely disingenuous. It's not even worth addressing.

"The current system is killing people. You're so narcissistic that you don't care at all the widening disparity in lifespan between rich and poor, as long as the tax code does what you want it to do, and you can't focus on any of the other provisions of the Senate bill."

Of course I care about it. I just understand how cause and effect work so I can realize that you are incorrect in your conclusions.

"Try citing specific provisions related to insurance. Sections 104&105 would help somewhat to reduce the deficit and relieve some of the absurd pricing pressure, for example; section 104 alone would reduce the deficit by $30bn/yr."

Yes, if you cover fewer people, total costs will go down. I just happen to believe that we should be reducing cost per person rather than eliminating coverage for certain groups.

"The pro-Obamneycare propaganda was running faster and more widely, with more funding, including the evening news brought to you primarily by PhRMA. You seem to blame the existence of people telling different sides for the fact that people opposed the legislation; you prefer perhaps a partisan echo chamber where only the official propaganda is presented."

That's just incorrect. I prefer to tell the truth rather than purposely mislead and lie (I thought you were done with me) like you.

http://www.alternet.org/media/anti-obamacare-propaganda-ignores-federal-subsidies

"This is how propaganda works. You don’t state all the facts. You select bits and build an argument. Forbes’ editors should know better—especially since the publication that bills itself as a capitalist’s tool is whacking a law with gigantic profits for its insurance industry friends.

On Thursday, Bloomberg.com reported that anti-Obamacare forces have so far outspent the pro-Obamacare side five-to-one, with its advertising approaching $500 million."

Update: since you updated your comment above, I see you're definitely lying. From YOUR link:

"Bloomberg’s source, Kantar Media, which tracks ad buys and trends, said the pro-Obamacare side would spend $500 million as the law is rolled out this fall and next year. That’s part of the $3.7 billion given to states to create and promote their program. And that does not count free media coverage, such as the president’s recent healthcare speeches."

IOW, pro-Obamneycare propaganda outweighed anti-Obamneycare by a ratio of more than 7:1. Bribing PhRMA with subsidies got the MSM commercial "news" on board too; look at the PhRMA advertising and marketing budgets (more than $100bn/yr) to see the volume of advertising and marketing power pushing that POS. That's consistent with what I had been seeing, and saying above. Thanks for the link, even though you mislead with selective omission as you (falsely) accuse others of doing.

joeyjojojunior says

I thought you were done with me

I was, but you came back, and you still add nothing. No citations, no links other than a blog mainly about taxes and relying on a push poll, basically nothing. I present five years of data and you dismiss them as one year, but the 2016 data will arrive soon enough and we'll see if you find a way to dismiss those also. You fail utterly to address the cost increases, the medical errors, etc. You say that I am suffering delusions and you accuse me of lying, but you are clearly doing one or the other or some of each. Democrats had power 2009-11, did what they did, and we have five years of data to see the results: huge increases in spending, no increase in life expectancy. And, based on forecasts, I expect we'll soon have six years of data showing the same thing. You keep saying what you want to say, whether you believe it or not; if you believe it, then I feel sorry for you, and if you're merely lying, then I don't.

"Update: since you updated your comment above, I see you're definitely lying. From YOUR link:

"Bloomberg’s source, Kantar Media, which tracks ad buys and trends, said the pro-Obamacare side would spend $500 million as the law is rolled out this fall and next year. That’s part of the $3.7 billion given to states to create and promote their program. And that does not count free media coverage, such as the president’s recent healthcare speeches."

IOW, pro-Obamneycare propaganda outweighed anti-Obamneycare by a ratio of more than 7:1. Bribing PhRMA with subsidies got the MSM commercial "news" on board too; look at the PhRMA advertising and marketing budgets (more than $100bn/yr) to see the volume of advertising and marketing power pushing that POS. That's consistent with what I had been seeing, and saying above. Thanks for the link, even though you mislead with selective omission as you (falsely) accuse others of doing."

I think you need a refresher on what "lie" means. And math. Anti-ACA folks had already spent $500MM, before the Pro-ACA folks started advertising. The anti-folks didn't stop spending at that point. They continued spending and probably ramped it up. And $500MM vs. $500MM isn't 7:1. Are you really that bad at math?? Or are you being purposely disingenuous again and pretending that the total of $3.7MM is being used on ads when it explicitly says only $500MM of that is for advertising?

"I was, but you came back"

So, another lie from curious then.

"I present five years of data and you dismiss them as one year"

ACA was only in effect starting in 2014. How did ACA affect mortality in 2009? or 2010?

joeyjojojunior says

How did ACA affect mortality in 2009? or 2010?

I cited data 2010-2015. Some provisions came into effect immediately. 3.7bn vs 500 million is more than 7:1. The advertising and marketing budget of PhRMA dwarfs both of those numbers, so they're moot: the point is the ratio ends up being more than 7:1. If you can find anyone who outspent PhRMA's advertising and marketing budgets, please link. From the moment the WH made its secret deal with PhRMA in August 2009, which the WH denied initially but admitted later, the pro-Obamneycare propaganda outweighed anti-Obamneycare. I saw it, and I continue to see it in CA where the State and the Kaisers' Empire advertise everywhere. One truth in your link is that real people would "get the last word." The legislation continued to poll around -10 through 2016, when voters completed the 2010-2016 process of separating Democrats from power.

Recently though, House Republicans proposed even worse legislation, so polls have turned favorable. That's your best hope: Republicans doing something even worse, making Obamneycare look almost decent in comparison. Thus the two-step dance continues: always blame "the other" side, pay no attention to the crooks on "your" side selling you down the river. Otherwise, it's a crap sandwich and most people could smell it even if you couldn't.

"3.7bn vs 500 million is more than 7:1"

So you are lying and pretending that the $3.7MM number was all spend on advertising when the article explicitly says otherwise. Par for the course.

"Recently though, House Republicans proposed even worse legislation, so polls have turned favorable. That's your best hope: Republicans doing something even worse, making Obamneycare look almost decent in comparison. Thus the two-step dance continues: always blame "the other" side, pay no attention to the crooks on "your" side selling you down the river. Otherwise, it's a crap sandwich and most people could smell it even if you couldn't."

And more curious lying. I'm not a big backer of ACA. I've always been on record here saying we need to look at what works at other 1st world countries and adopt the best parts. My hope for ACA was that it started us down the path to single payer. Denying coverage to people shouldn't be the solution--rather it should be reducing the cost of care.

joeyjojojunior says

rather it should be reducing the cost of care.

How do you do that while maintaining quality and preventing rationing?

"How do you do that while maintaining quality and preventing rationing?"

Not sure if you're being facetious or genuinely asking, but here's a good start:

http://issues.org/26-2/milstein/

"Senate Republican leaders on Thursday unveiled a fresh proposal.... Republicans said the revised bill would provide roughly $70 billion in additional funds that states could use... The bill already included more than $100 billion for such purposes.

The new bill, like earlier versions, would convert Medicaid from an open-ended entitlement to a system of fixed payments to states. But in the event of a public health emergency, state Medicaid spending in a particular part of a state would not be counted toward the spending limits, known as per capita caps.
***
If an insurer offered “sufficient minimum coverage” on the exchange that remains subject to federal mandates...it could also offer coverage outside the exchange that would be exempt from many of those mandates...the Republican bill would create a fund to make payments to insurers for the costs of covering high-risk people enrolled in health plans on the exchanges.
***
People who enroll in catastrophic health insurance plans would be eligible for federal tax credits to help pay premiums. Such plans typically have lower premiums and high deductibles.
***
The bill would, for the first time, allow people to use tax-favored health savings accounts to pay insurance premiums.
***
Like the previous bill, it would end the requirement that most Americans have health coverage, and it would make deep cuts to Medicaid, capping payments to states and rolling back its expansion under the Affordable Care Act.
***
In a notable change, the bill would keep the two taxes imposed by the Affordable Care Act on people with high incomes: the 3.8 percent tax on investment income and the 0.9 percent payroll tax.
***
Republicans expect that an analysis of the new bill will be released by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office early next week.
***
Mr. McConnell has said he intends to take up the revised bill next week...."

The new bill looks a bit more like NIxon's plan for a voluntary private system with federal backing. Compared to the OP bill, this edition would continue some of the current taxes and subsidies, buying patronage network support by continuing to monetize chronic conditions rather than cure them. Neither bill includes any money for research, as usual from Republicans, many of whom oppose science and favor faith healing. Where the previous bill might have encouraged and rewarded biotech entrepreneurs developing disruptive cures, this edition seems to maintain more of the chronic revenue models in existing legislation.

https://www.budget.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/BetterCareJuly13.2017.pdf

Interesting article on US health care costs and outcomes. It appears the inflection point where our system went off the rails was ~1980. That's when the costs started skyrocketing out of control without any additional benefits in life expectancy.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/14/upshot/medical-mystery-health-spending-1980.html

"The United States devotes a lot more of its economic resources to health care than any other nation, and yet its health care outcomes aren’t better for it.
That hasn’t always been the case. America was in the realm of other countries in per-capita health spending through about 1980. Then it diverged.
It’s the same story with health spending as a fraction of gross domestic product. Likewise, life expectancy. In 1980, the U.S. was right in the middle of the pack of peer nations in life expectancy at birth. But by the mid-2000s, we were at the bottom of the pack.
What happened?"