patrick.net

Strategist says

In a capitalistic country, the means of production is privately owned. That makes the US a capitalist country.

Finally you got something right. Production and distribution of wealth created is controlled by a few owners in a capitalist economy. The people who actually create the wealth don't own the wealth they created. This is the fundamental problem with capitalism and with communism. In communism, the state owns the wealth you create. In capitalism, the corporate owners own the wealth you create. Not much difference.

In an good economic system, you would own the wealth you create. I've been saying that for years. Are you finally listening?

In any case, what makes our country capitalist is only that the means of production and distribution of wealth created is privately owned. Commerce does not make us capitalistic. Private property does not make us capitalistic. Free markets do not make us capitalistic. Deregulation does not make us capitalistic. Banking does not make us capitalistic. Entrepreneurship does not make us capitalistic. Even owning your own business does not make us capitalistic. You could have privately founded, owned, and operated businesses without making the production and distribution of wealth controlled by a few owners that do not actually produced the wealth. And if you can't image how, that's your failure to think outside the box.

Any economic system in which people do not own the wealth they create is a flawed economic system. Such systems discourage productivity and encourage zero-sum games, waste, rigging the system, and corrupting government. Capitalism and communism both fail for the exact same reason because they are the exact same economic system just with different owners. Feudalism also fails because it's also the same damn system. Three flavors of vanilla.

PeopleUnited says

Dan likes to talk big on the internet, but that is all he willing to do, talk.

Honey buns, talking about ideas is exactly how you spread ideas and allow others to refine them. And quite frankly, intelligent conversations is the ONLY power the average American citizen has to make our country better. Unless you are a high ranking politician, you have jack diddly squat power to enact policy change. So telling people that discussing politics is a waste of time is quite frankly a great disservice to our country, and you should stop doing that.

PeopleUnited says

Dan has no way of holding the government accountable, which is why he hates freedom and wants to implement conservative policies.

Wow, you are delusional. I've posted on PatNet many ways to increase government accountability. I've also been the greatest advocate of freedom here. And how have I ever been conservative? Although, you are right to imply that conservatives are evil scums who should be ashamed of being conservative.

Once more you prove that Jesus freaks are incapable of grasping reality. This is why Christianity is harmful. It brainwashes people like you to the point where you cannot even think.

PeopleUnited says

Dan knows his taxation ideas are unpopular and would never receive support of the free people of even one city in this nation.

Popularity is not what determines correct action. Desegregation was not popular. Abolition of slavery was not popular. Any way of balancing the budget would not be popular. Any means of paying off the national debt would not be popular. Cutting entitlements would not be popular. Are you saying none of those things should have been done?

In any case, the average person isn't intelligent enough or informed enough to know what is in his best long-term interest. My idea would prevent people from using their houses as retirement plans, but it would mean people lived in better houses and spent a fraction of what they currently do on housing. This would greatly increase the quality of life for virtually all people in the U.S., the exception being lazy parasites who produce nothing and live off rental income.

Given the choice between living in a slum that costs millions but will pay for your retirement when you sell it to move into an assisted living facility or living like a king in a mansion but having to work for a living doing something productive to save for retirement, I think most people would choose the later.

Tell me, what the hell is the social benefit of letting people fund their retirement with zero-sum games? Anyone who profits off selling a house does so at the equal expense of someone else who loses because of it. Housing is not like stocks. A house does nothing more a hundred years after it was built than it did the day it was built. A company can grow and become more productive and constantly produces goods or services. A house produces nothing. Real estate transactions are completely zero-sum games. So what is the benefit of promoting zero-sum games? Go on, write an answer. This is not a rhetorical question.

PeopleUnited says

Dan likes wealth confiscation

Do you really think the audience is dumb enough to believe your lies or that I'm not smart enough to refute them? My plan involves no wealth confiscation. A person selling a house for more than what he bought it for is not generating wealth. He's taking wealth from the buyer. There's a huge difference. My plan actually prevents the transfer of wealth.

Good trade involves wealth creation, not wealth transfer. A system set up to force people to lose wealth through rent or through buying inflated assets is a system that decreases some people's wealth only to increase other people's wealth. Such systems are inherently wasteful as all zero-sum games are really negative sum games because of the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

PeopleUnited says

as a conservative he loves using the power of the state to do so

Weren't you and your butt buddies just complaining on several other threads that it is the damn liberals who love to use the power of the state to confiscate wealth? Get your lies straight.

PeopleUnited says

Thankfully the first sentence in this bullet point remains true, and as long as people are able to own property, and property owners can vote,

Actually, no. The current system is unsustainable because it ever increases concentration of wealth and ownership to the hands of fewer and fewer owners. Eventually renters start outnumbering owners and the political will changes and the whole system collapses. You cannot keep concentrating wealth into fewer and fewer hands without eventually creating a revolt.

In summary, on one hand you have a rational argument based on mathematical reasoning and one the other hand you have the assertions of someone who thinks Noah's ark is real and climate change is a myth. Consider that when deciding who's ideas are more plausible.

PeopleUnited says

Sweetheart, that is exactly why you won't let so many of the regular Patnetters post on your threads. You know your ideas are full of holes and you are tired of people exposing them.

Honey, if you think you exposed any flaws, you're delusional for even for someone who believes in Noah's Ark.

PeopleUnited says

But the point I was making is you are a talker. NOT A DOER.

Are you a doer? What laws have you passed? Are you saying that it's pointless for anyone who's not a member of Congress to talk about political or economic ideas? How stupid is that?

Discussing and promoting ideas is the ONLY thing that any America citizen who isn't an elected official can do. And honey, there are only 100 senator seats in the country, so it's completely pointless for the common citizen to even try to become a senator.

As for doing, I have a day job in which I've done more every week than you have accomplished in your lifetime. Ever heard of the Internet? You're welcome. That was me and about 10,000 other people like me building it. That alone makes our accomplishes outweigh all the accomplishments of Christianity over the past 2000 years.

Dan8267 says

Given the choice between living in a slum that costs millions but will pay for your retirement when you sell it to move into an assisted living facility or living like a king in a mansion but having to work for a living doing something productive to save for retirement, I think most people would choose the later.

So you are saying....someone who lives modestly and saves up money to buy a rental property, and keeps repeating it every few years, is not as better off as someone who spends rent money on a mansion living the good life.
You know when we are both retired, I will be paying taxes to support you, because people who like to live beyond their means by renting a mansion will never have enough for their retirement.
This is part of the system I hate. Those who work, save and invest wisely, have to support those who foolishly fritter away their earnings on luxuries they do not need. And I am the bad guy?

Dan8267 says

Honey buns

Don't be so homophobic. It's just my way of being condescending.

Strategist says

So you are saying....someone who lives modestly and saves up money to buy a rental property, and keeps repeating it every few years, is not as better off as someone who spends rent money on a mansion living the good life

No. I'm saying that investment and zero-sum games are different things. Investments increase productivity. Zero-sum games don't. Rents are zero-sum games.

It is bad for an economy to have zero-sum games. It is good for an economy to encourage productivity.

Dan8267 says

Desegregation was not popular. Abolition of slavery was not popular. Any way of balancing the budget would not be popular. Any means of paying off the national debt would not be popular. Cutting entitlements would not be popular.

Wrong, wrong wrong and wrong. Care to try again?

These ideas have had many, many, many supporters, in fact one could argue that because 1, 2 and 3 have actually been done they are/were in fact very popular.

Dan8267 says

Honey, if you think you exposed any flaws

Don't need to expose flaws Dan, they are apparent for all to see. The fact that you ban the majority of people who are willing to debate your lunacy is further evidence that your ideas can't stand on their own, you have to silence those who disagree with you. How conservative of you.

PeopleUnited says

Wrong, wrong wrong and wrong.

The federal government had to send in the national guard to enforce desegregation. It had to fight a civil war for four years to end slavery. Learn your country's history you damn hippie!

PeopleUnited says

Don't need to expose flaws Dan

Translation: can't

PeopleUnited says

How conservative of you.

If you think you are upsetting me by calling me a conservative, you are wrong. Now if you were to call me a Christian, that would be very insulting. Those dumb asses believe a hippie rose from the dead. How stupid are they?

Dan8267 says

Are you a doer?

Yes, I vote with my labor, I vote with my dollars and not just my words. But you don't really care about what I do. It is all about Dan right?

So I respect people who say what they believe in and then go out and do what they believe in. For example, missionaries who forsake their life to promote their beliefs. Prius owners who put their money where their mouth is and at least try to reduce oil consumption. Gun owners who not just speak about 2nd Amendment but then go out and train themselves to be responsible users and owners of arms. People who live in tiny houses to be more efficient. People who walk or bike to work. People who buy American. These are the kind of people who are doers. Not some drip on the internet spouting foolishness and banning the majority of people who dare speak out against him. If you think we need changes in laws then you ought to go out and campaign, spend your money promoting the idea, run for office, not just blather on on an anonymous forum.

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

Wrong, wrong wrong and wrong.

The federal government had to send in the national guard to enforce desegregation. It had to fight a civil war for four years to end slavery. Learn your country's history you damn hippie!

The national guard was willing to support the desegregation, the Union army was willing to die to end slavery. Think before you criticize. People supported these ideas so much they were willing to die for them. Ever heard of Martin Luther King and the million man march! POPULAR IDEAS!!!!!

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

Don't need to expose flaws Dan

Translation: can't

PeopleUnited says

How conservative of you.

If you think you are upsetting me by calling me a conservative, you are wrong. Now if you were to call me a Christian, that would be very insulting. Those dumb asses believe a hippie rose from the dead. How stupid are they?

Calling you a Christian would be an insult to Christians. It would be an insult to Christ, the very person you mock.

Dan8267 says

As for doing, I have a day job in which I've done more every week than you have accomplished in your lifetime.

Not that you care what anyone else does, but I literally save lives every day. That is my job. I don't invent anything. I prevent people from dying. As small as the world is, I may have even saved someone you know. You're welcome.

Dan8267 says

Ever heard of the Internet? You're welcome. That was me

Dan is Al Gore???!?!?!?!

Now it is starting to make sense.

Thanks Al. The internet has been used of God to bring the gospel of Jesus Christ to literally billions of people and probably millions have been saved because of it. Thank you!

On the other hand, the internet has been used to hack elections (allegedly), take down power grids, promote lies, steal from innocent people, enrich the capitalists who control the bulk of the world's wealth, recruit terrorists, and one day may directly or indirectly literally be used to destroy or enslave people. Gee, you technology sounds kinda dangerous. Are you still so proud? You are literally a worker bee for the capitalists! Nice going!!!

Nearly every technology can be used for good or for destruction. I wouldn't brag too much about creating the internet Dan. One day it may be your downfall.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

So you are saying....someone who lives modestly and saves up money to buy a rental property, and keeps repeating it every few years, is not as better off as someone who spends rent money on a mansion living the good life

No. I'm saying that investment and zero-sum games are different things. Investments increase productivity. Zero-sum games don't. Rents are zero-sum games.

It is bad for an economy to have zero-sum games. It is good for an economy to encourage productivity.

Giving people a place to live is productive. Either the capitalist will do it, or your taxes will do it. Someone has to do it. Grow up.

PeopleUnited says

Dan8267 says

Ever heard of the Internet? You're welcome. That was me

Ha ha ha. Now I know who to thank for the viruses and malware.

Dan8267 says

Ever heard of the Internet? You're welcome. That was me and about 10,000 other people like me building it. That alone makes our accomplishes outweigh all the accomplishments of Christianity over the past 2000 years.

One day you will realize how wrong you are. At this moment there are literally people thanking God for Christ, and Christians, and literally even more people regretting their rejection of Christ. What side you choose you will live with in eternity. The internet won't be worth a spec of dust in eternity. You will live or die forever Dan. I hope it is the former.

PeopleUnited says

Yes, I vote with my labor, I vote with my dollars and not just my words.

We all do that honey. That doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss ideas for making life better.

PeopleUnited says

The national guard was willing to support the desegregation, the Union army was willing to die to end slavery.

Don't try to cover your mistake by changing your story.

PeopleUnited says

I wouldn't brag too much about creating the internet Dan. One day it may be your downfall.

All technologies can be used for good or evil. That does not mean we should stop creating technology.

PeopleUnited says

Giving people a place to live is productive.

No, it's not productive. The house isn't producing anything. And the profit seeking in rent is a drain on the economy like any other zero-sum game. You can't state one benefit to society of zero-sum games.

PeopleUnited says

At this moment there are literally people thanking God for Christ, and Christians, and literally even more people regretting their rejection of Christ.

And it's this kind of batshit crazy bullshit that demonstrates how brainwashed you are.

PeopleUnited says

Dan is Al Gore???!?!?!?!

Al Gore never claimed to had invented the Internet. Do I have to correct you on everything?

However, Al Gore was instrumental in getting legislation passed that allowed the Internet's physical infrastructure to be laid down. For this, he has done more to help the economy than all Republicans in history. So yes, you should be grateful to him.

Dan8267 says

We all do that honey. That doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss ideas for making life better.

Sweetheart your ideas won't make life better. That is why they are constantly ridiculed.

PeopleUnited says

The national guard was willing to support the desegregation, the Union army was willing to die to end slavery.

Don't try to cover your mistake by changing your story.

No change. Shooting holes in your silly argument. Surely the vast majority of Americans supported both desegregation and abolishing Slavery. That is why they actually happened. Your ideas on the other hand. Not so much.

PeopleUnited says

I wouldn't brag too much about creating the internet Dan. One day it may be your downfall.

All technologies can be used for good or evil. That does not mean we should stop creating technology.

Inserting a red herring is not a way to prove your point. I simply stated your bragadocious claim on creating the internet isn't anything to brag about.

PeopleUnited says

Sweetheart your ideas won't make life better. That is why they are constantly ridiculed.

I find it hard to respect the opinion of anyone who thinks Christianity makes life better. Again, you think Jesus rose from the dead and Noah had two of each animal on a Bronze Age boat. Who are you to ridicule anything?

PeopleUnited says

I simply stated your bragadocious claim on creating the internet isn't anything to brag about.

The Internet is the greatest invention of mankind, surpassing even the printing press. Every social and political advancement has been preceded by a scientific or technological advancement that made it possible. However, if you think the Internet is so bad, feel free to stop using it.

Dan8267 says

Now if you were to call me a Christian, that would be very insulting.

I'm pretty sure it would be insulting to all the Christians to have them be compared to you.

So if someone builds an apartment building, it's a drain on the economy?

FortWayne says

I'm pretty sure it would be insulting to all the Christians to have them be compared to you.

Yeah, I'm a heathen because I don't believe a book that says bash babies heads against rocks is an infallible moral authority.

theoakman says

So if someone builds an apartment building, it's a drain on the economy?

No. The profit seeking of rent is the drain on the economy because money spent on rent or on rising housing prices is money not spent on other goods and services. It discourages production.

It would be far more efficient to have tiered public apartment housing and privately owned houses. Don't tax the buildings. Tax the land. Stop profiteering off higher land prices, which is the only reason housing prices rise, thus discouraging land hording and encouraging efficient use of land and home ownership.

The results would be
1. People would be able to buy a given house for less than a fifth of current prices.
2. People would rent for shorter periods of time.
3. Those who rent would pay less and save more money for house purchases.
4. People would be able to buy houses with little or no mortgages.
5. Fewer people would default on houses.
6. Housing units would not be wasted remaining empty.
7. Crime and squatting in unoccupied units would stop.
8. Decay of abandon or empty houses would stop.
9. The taxpayers would be taxed less for housing assistance. It's cheaper to house people in public apartments than to pay private landlords.
10. Landlords would lose their revenue streams and have to get real jobs that produce wealth instead of taxing people.
11. Home owners won't be able to use their houses as investments or retirement plans.

Out of all of these effects, only one is bad for half the population and only one other is bad for a small portion of the population and foreigners. The good far outweighs the bad.

The bottom line is that an efficient economy has to make infrastructure, including shelter, cheap. Increasing cost of infrastructure without increase effectiveness of that infrastructure is a drag on the economy because it breaks the virtuous cycle of consumption and production, which is what drives all economic productivity and growth. This is true regardless of your politics, your political party, or your culture.

Islam today is what Christianity was for 80% of its existence.

If Capitalism yields Housing shortages, it is heralded as good. After all, housing isn't important. Most people don't need housing

If Socialism yields toilet paper shortage, we must spend countless hours denigrating "Socialism ", because Baby Jesus and the "Virgin" Mary lol

Dan8267 says

Islam today is what Christianity was for 80% of its existence.

And yet you continue to bash Christianity, when it's Islam you should be bashing. Liberal extremism has no rationality.

81606 says

What people believe, think, wish, or say is largely irrelevant. What matters is what they do.

I think that what people do does follow from what they believe and say.

The Koran says that all non-Muslims are unclean and disgusting and it's OK to enslave or kill them if they continue to reject Islam.
If they repent and accept Islam, then they must also turn and enslave or kill their unclean disgusting non-Muslim friends and relatives, etc.

This is extremely different from the Christian message of "love your neighbor as yourself" without regard to his religion.

And these messages have real-world consequences.

1 says

81606 says

What people believe, think, wish, or say is largely irrelevant. What matters is what they do.

I think that what people do does follow from what they believe and say.

The Koran says that all non-Muslims are unclean and disgusting and it's OK to enslave or kill them if they continue to reject Islam.

If they repent and accept Islam, then they must also turn and enslave or kill their unclean disgusting non-Muslim friends and relatives, etc.

This is extremely different from the Christian message of "love your neighbor as yourself" without regard to his religion.

And these messages have real-world consequences.

The Bible OK's having slaves, but no one follows this because secular laws controls religion in America. Islam too MUST be put under secular control.
Just look at this unbelievable practice:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-40731035
Pakistan village council orders 'revenge rape' of girl

81606 says

Dan8267 says

Islam today is what Christianity was for 80% of its existence.

And yet you continue to bash Christianity, when it's Islam you should be bashing. Liberal extremism has no rationality.

It's perfectly rational. Bashing the two religions are not mutually exclusive.

You continue to foolishly believe that Christianity somehow moderates Islam or reduces its power. It does not. Christianity enables Islam by providing an environment in which irrationality can flourish.

Fighting one irrationality with another is like fighting a fire with gasoline. It's just plain stupid. The only way to defeat irrationality is with rationality.

1 says

This is extremely different from the Christian message of "love your neighbor as yourself" without regard to his religion.

Except for the parts of Christianity that promote
- rape
- slavery
- infanticide
- genocide

Both testaments are full of contradictions and hypocrisies.

Thinks about it. Christianity was as evil as Islam for a good 1600 years. What exactly were the additions to the Bible in the past 400 years that changed that?

It's not that Christianity has a better mythology than Islam. It's that Christian faith today is so much weaker than Islamic faith. Change that, and Christianity will revert to its Dark Age behavior.

81606 says

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-40731035

Pakistan village council orders 'revenge rape' of girl

Strategist, this sounds exactly like your vengeance based view of law and order. Make people suffer for the crimes they committed (or are simply accused of). What better way to make someone suffer than making those they love suffer?

This is exactly why I've been telling you for years that you cannot serve both justice and vengeance. They are mutually exclusive goals.

8267 says

Strategist, this sounds exactly like your vengeance based view of law and order. Make people suffer for the crimes they committed (or are simply accused of). What better way to make someone suffer than making those they love suffer?

This is exactly why I've been telling you for years that you cannot serve both justice and vengeance. They are mutually exclusive goals.

Huh? I want to see the heads of criminals roll. These wackos rape a perfectly innocent girl for the crimes of someone else. There is no comparison.

.

14882 says

Many of the calls to resist further construction, residents must understand, are being made by special interests; indeed, they amount to a kind of rent seeking by homeowners seeking to boost their own homes’ resale value.

This is the most plausible explanation.

Current owners have a huge motive to defeat the free market and restrict supply simply to raise the value of what they already own.

1 says

14882 says

Many of the calls to resist further construction, residents must understand, are being made by special interests; indeed, they amount to a kind of rent seeking by homeowners seeking to boost their own homes’ resale value.

This is the most plausible explanation.

Current owners have a huge motive to defeat the free market and restrict supply simply to raise the value of what they already own.

But in a free market all parties are able to act in their own self interest (and to make self destructive choices for that matter, but the crux of a free market is choice, free of coercion or threat of violence). In places where government has the power to enact laws that restrict supply there will always be special interests who seek to do so. The best solution is to NOT give government the power to restrict supply.

1 says

81606 says

What people believe, think, wish, or say is largely irrelevant. What matters is what they do.

I think that what people do does follow from what they believe and say.

The Koran says that all non-Muslims are unclean and disgusting and it's OK to enslave or kill them if they continue to reject Islam.

If they repent and accept Islam, then they must also turn and enslave or kill their unclean disgusting non-Muslim friends and relatives, etc.

This is extremely different from the Christian message of "love your neighbor as yourself" without regard to his religion.

And these messages have real-world consequences.

1 is absolutely correct. Your beliefs motivate your actions.

The teachings of Christ to love your neighbor as yourself, and the example He set of obedience to His father, and an innocent sacrificing Himself for the guilty and condemned sinners is in stark contrast to all the false gods. Especially the false moon "god" and the violent "prophet" puppet master.

The example of Jesus is one of spotless perfection. Dan can condemn Christians till the day he meets Christ, but he cannot say a single negative thing about Jesus that isn't a lie.

8267 says

81606 says

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-40731035


Pakistan village council orders 'revenge rape' of girl

Strategist, this sounds exactly like your vengeance based view of law and order. Make people suffer for the crimes they committed (or are simply accused of). What better way to make someone suffer than making those they love suffer?

This is exactly why I've been telling you for years that you cannot serve both justice and vengeance. They are mutually exclusive goals.

Well said.

But, justice sometimes look like vengeance, and vengeance is often portrayed as justice. Tyrants exercise vengeance under the guise of justice. America's foundation was a plea to avoid vengeance (or justice depending on your perspective).