patrick.net

Dan8267 says

Blurtman says

Why aren't black athletes protesting inner city murder rates?

Because black civilians who murder other blacks aren't left unprosecuted while getting a paid vacation and exalted as heroes. When a black man murders anyone, even another black man, he is sent to prison for decades or for life. If the exact same thing happened to cops who murdered people, there would be no protests whatsoever.

People protest the injustice because the courts do not prosecute cops who commit murder. That is the outrage.

Dan, what you say is simply not believable. The outrage is based on race only. When you have Black on Black murders it's business as usual. When you have a White man, especially a White cop kill a Black person, he gets accused of being a racist murderer and all hell breaks lose . Most cops killing a Black person is not due to racism, it's due to self defense. But all the rioting that flares up is only due to racism.
For this nonsense to end, we need the Black heroes to forcefully oppose any rioting that takes place.

socal2 says

It's an "outrage" that Democrats, celebrities and BLM pretend there is an endemic case of racist cops murdering black people all over the place.

Whether or not a cop kills an innocent person because of racism is a secondary issue. The fact is that cops who commit murdered are not prosecuted and never face justice. And yes, cops do murder innocent white people as well, but not nearly as often. The criminal cops also plant false evidence, which means that no reasonable juror can ever believe any evidence gathered by the police.

All of these things are very serious issues. If you are more pissed off at people being outraged at this criminal behavior and the courts lack of prosecution than you are at the criminal behavior itself, I can only conclude that you are a bigot that likes innocent black people being murdered. There would be no other explanation for being upset at the outrage over the injustices rather than the injustices themselves.

No cop is above the law. Any cop that commits murder or plants evidence should be prosecuted as vigorously as any other criminal, even more so since he abused the power of the state to commit the crimes. Do you disagree that these criminal cops should be prosecuted?

socal2 says

Truly evil shit what the Democrats are doing with their celebrity fanboys stoking division for political gain.

You have a problem that politicians doing what they are suppose to do, protecting the public, may make them more popular with the public? Why aren't Republicans rallying to prosecute criminal cops and stopping them from murdering innocent people? You should get them to do that instead of bitching that the Democrats look better on this issue. This issue is a no-brainer. Murderers should be tried in an honest court. There is no other side to this issue.

And why aren't you bitching about Republicans waging a war on drugs for purely political reasons? The whole purpose of the war on drugs was to take away the right to vote from people who no longer voted Republican. That's committing a travesty of justice for political gain. Where is your outrage over that?

WookieMan says

It does exist and it is a rather small percentage of cops.

It may be less than 10% of cops who plant the evidence or commit assault or murder, but the vast majority of cops protect the criminal cops who do commit these acts, and that makes them criminals as well.

When a cop assaults an innocent person and another cop stands by, that second cop is just as guilty because he's mere presence makes it impossible for other citizens from stopping the criminal cop. Don't believe me? Try stopping a criminal cop from committing a crime and you'll see all the other cops pounce on you or shoot you for protecting the victim. They are all guilty.

The fact is that if even 10% of cops were honest, it would be utterly impossible for criminal cops to get away with their crimes. You'd constantly be hearing about cops arresting other cops for about six months. Then all these crimes would stop and then the protests would also stop.

There is absolutely no excuse for tolerating crimes from those with the authority to enforce laws. Even the assholes who don't give a damn about the victims of police crime should not tolerate such criminal cops because those cops endanger the life of other cops by making vigilantism against cops a reality.

WookieMan says

The issue is a NEEDED police presence in many of these neighborhoods and therefor increased interaction with blacks.

True, that explains much of the problem. However, the police often view the people in those neighborhoods as the enemy, and they dehumanize them. A police department that acts like an occupying army is going to commit atrocities and the public is going to react either with protest or vigilantism.

That said, there are plenty of documented instances of the police going after "niggers". That cannot be whitewashed.

Strategist says

Dan, what you say is simply not believable. The outrage is based on race only.

Prove that assertion. I have every reason to believe it's bogus.

Strategist says

When you have Black on Black murders it's business as usual. When you have a White man, especially a White cop kill a Black person, he gets accused of being a racist murderer and all hell breaks lose .

Show me one instance where a non-police black man who committed a murder caught on video was not even prosecuted for the crime. This has never, ever happened. In order for you statement to be true, not only would this have had to happen frequently, but the public would have to have no outrage over it. What you are describing is not the real world.

If cops who murdered, assaulted, planted evidence, and committed other crimes were prosecuted like any other criminal, there would be abso-fucking-lutely zero outrage. The outrage stems from the complete disregard of justice and human rights by the courts. The outrage is amply justified. If a cop murdered your daughter and was not even made to stand trial, you'd be damn pissed off. You'd be grabbing your gun to kill that cop and get street justice. Now imagine if the innocent people in your neighborhood were killed by cops for 50 years and never prosecuted. You'd be calling for armed revolution, and rightfully so.

Strategist says

But all the rioting that flares up is only due to racism.

The rioting is besides the issue. Rioting is almost always young people using an opportunity to steal and vandalize. It has nothing to do with the very legitimate outrage that a grandmother has when her granddaughter is murdered in cold blood and she is framed for the murder by the cop who did the killing and then that cop does not even stand trial. That grandmother isn't rioting. Fuck the rioters. Let them be prosecuted as they always are. But prosecute the damn criminal cops for their crimes.

Dan8267 says

The fact is that cops who commit murdered are not prosecuted and never face justice.

Which cops haven't been prosecuted? Virtually every major cop shooting that has made the news resulted in investigations and prosecutions. Many of these cops were tried and found not guilty by juries or Obama's Department of Justice like the famous Ferguson shooting where we found out the whole "Hands Up - Don't Shoot" was a lie.

Dan8267 says

And yes, cops do murder innocent white people as well, but not nearly as often.

More white people (armed and unarmed) are shot by cops than black people. Granted the white population is much bigger than the black population, but the black population has a much higher rate of crime.

Dan8267 says

No cop is above the law. Any cop that commits murder or plants evidence should be prosecuted as vigorously as any other criminal, even more so since he abused the power of the state to commit the crimes. Do you disagree that these criminal cops should be prosecuted?

Of course - but this is not a race issue.

Why must evil Democrats make this about race and further divide our country? You give the truly bad cops a pass because you make it about race which is a lie, and people like me will defend against the false charges.

Dan8267 says

The whole purpose of the war on drugs was to take away the right to vote from people who no longer voted Republican.

See - more Democrat race-baiting bullshit. Many of the leaders of minority communities that were devastated by crack epidemic were begging for cops to police their neighborhoods to try and get the gang-bangers off the streets who were killing everyone. Next thing you will say is that crack was purposefully introduced into the ghetto by the CIA.

socal2 says

Which cops haven't been prosecuted?

Andrew Blomberg, a former Houston police officer, was acquitted Wednesday in the alleged beating of a black 15-year-old burglary suspect during a videotaped arrest.
In the video footage from a security camera, which jurors were shown in court, Holley is seen falling to the ground after trying to hurdle a police squad car. He's then surrounded by at least five officers, some who appear to kick and hit his head, abdomen and legs.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/andrew-blomberg-ex-houston-police-officer-acquitted-of-beating-teen-suspect/


Video:www.youtube.com/embed/9pc5Dh3Oz4o

Notice that in court the cop who kicked the crap out of the teen said that he was restraining him. This is absolute horseshit - see the video, stomping and kicking a person who is on the ground is not "restraining". If you omit the BS part of the article (that cops are raycist and white, despite the fact that at least one of them is Hispanic), then the rest is actually pretty damning to the current system. None of the cops did any time for something that me or you would be locked away for years.

drBu says

Andrew Blomberg, a former Houston police officer, was acquitted Wednesday in the alleged beating of a black 15-year-old burglary suspect during a videotaped arrest.
In the video footage from a security camera, which jurors were shown in court,

I am unfamiliar with this case, but the cop was prosecuted and went before a jury - right? Juries get verdicts wrong all the time, often letting guilty people go and even worse - convicting innocent people.

I don't believe this individual case is a good example showing departmental conspiracy to protect bad or racist cops.

Again, I am not disputing that there are some bad cops. Nor am I disputing that there are racist cops. I think the vast majority of the cops are doing the right thing and doing a largely thankless job that can be dangerous. It's wrong to claim there is a sizable chunk of bad/racist cops where we need nationwide protests, riots, and fucking up the NFL and getting Trump involved.

socal2 says

the cop was prosecuted and went before a jury - right? Juries get verdicts wrong all the time, often letting guilty people go and even worse - convicting innocent people.

I don't believe this individual case is a good example showing departmental conspiracy to protect bad or racist cops.

The cop was acquitted because police union hired THE most expensive lawyer in Houston. This is just one of many cases of similar behavior I have seen in SE Texas. It is a systemic problem when police unions provide "protection" to their members no matter what they have done. Even a clear video showing that police beats up the person is not enough for a conviction. This is not racism by any stretch of imagination - I know of one Russian guy who was beaten senseless by police a while ago after traffic stop, and a substantial number of cops here in SE TX are Hispanic - problem is the general impunity with which cops operate.

socal2 says

Which cops haven't been prosecuted?

Practically all of them including the one that murdered a sleeping 9-year-old girl and then tried to frame her grandmother. I have documented countless examples. Feel free to spend hours reading my previous threads on these examples.

socal2 says

More white people (armed and unarmed) are shot by cops than black people. Granted the white population is much bigger than the black population, but the black population has a much higher rate of crime.

WTF is your point? Per capita, innocent and cooperating blacks are more likely to be shot than whites. But is everything about race to you? Racism is certainly a component of criminal cops, but the fundamental point is that criminal cops should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law regardless of the race of their victims.

There is a deep problem in the United States with criminal cops and the militarization of the police. Only a fool would disagree with that. Every other western nation has a far lower fatality rate, and the statistics prove that the high rate of murder by police is NOT a function of crime or violent crime or danger. Crime and violent crime has been plummeting since the mid-1990s. Meanwhile, the criminal cop murder rate has been going up.

The attitude that no cop can do any wrong no matter who he kills or why is a large part of the problem.

socal2 says

Why must evil Democrats make this about race and further divide our country?

The party of the South is the party of evil. Today that's Republicans. The conservative right is pure fucking evil. They are the ones who torture, turn citizens into political prisoners, treat our soldiers like cannon fodder, and target innocent civilians in war. Republicans are pure evil.

The Democrats today and ever since Nixon's Southern Strategy have been the far lesser of the two evils. Anyone who does not admit that is evil.

Furthermore, race is certainly a component of criminal cops who murder and assault. To deny or whitewash that is a lie. The Democrats aren't making this about race. The criminal cops are making this about race by targeting blacks.

There have been countless times that the police have been caught red handed in targeting minorities for false arrest, violence, and planting evidence. Usually they get away even if the evidence is beyond doubt. Here's an example when they did not get away, mainly because the judge was black. The cops were caught on video stating they were going to hunt for blacks and plant evidence, and then they brutally assaulted an innocent old man.
www.youtube.com/embed/XrXdLvGCRIQ

Additionally, police department have illegal quotas to target minorities regardless of whether or not they are criminals. Here are actual cops blowing the whistle. Of course, these are minority cops.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK35y9-dTuw
And occasionally a cop pulls over the wrong person with the intent to make a false arrest. By sheer bad luck, a criminal cop intending to arrest an innocent black woman pulls over one that is a state attorney. You can hear the fear in this criminal cop's voice as he unconvincingly tries to back off after he realizes that he tried to frame a powerful state attorney with connection. He lies like crazy once caught, but she's not buying it.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=chicago+police+target+black+driver
So don't tell me that racism has nothing to do with criminal cop behavior. It's not the whole story, maybe even not the majority, but it's damn significant and undeniable.

In any case, no criminal behavior by cops should be tolerated. Those who enforce the law must obey it. To use the power of the state to commit a crime makes the crime a hundred times worse.

socal2 says

Next thing you will say is that crack was purposefully introduced into the ghetto by the CIA.

This is a straw man argument. I never said anything remotely like that. However, cops frequently plant false evidence including crack on their victims. Such criminal cops should never see the light of day again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcWXVDiEjzU
Now give me one reason why any of these crimes should be tolerated.

Dan8267 says

Practically all of them

Really - "practically all" cops caught doing a crime are not prosecuted?

Dan8267 says

WTF is your point? Per capita, innocent and cooperating blacks are more likely to be shot than whites. But is everything about race to you? Racism is certainly a component of criminal cops, but the fundamental point is that criminal cops should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law regardless of the race of their victims.

I agree that criminal cops should be prosecuted. But the BLM movement and NFL protests are all based on the notion that our country's criminal justice system is racist top to bottom. That is flat out false and all of the kneeling athletes should be called out on it.

Dan8267 says

The party of the South is the party of evil. Today that's Republicans.

The Southern Democrat party certainly was racist and evil. The Democrats are the party of slavery, segregation and Jim Crow.

Once the South ditched the racist Democrat party and became Republicans, they became less racist.

Dan8267 says

socal2 says

More white people (armed and unarmed) are shot by cops than black people. Granted the white population is much bigger than the black population, but the black population has a much higher rate of crime.

WTF is your point? Per capita, innocent and cooperating blacks are more likely to be shot than whites. But is everything about race to you? Racism is certainly a component of criminal cops, but the fundamental point is that criminal cops should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law regardless of the race of their victims.

If it's all about bad cops and not race, Whites, Asians, Brown and Martians would all be victims. So why are just the Blacks kicking up such a fuss and rioting, and not the other groups?

socal2 says

Really - "practically all" cops caught doing a crime are not prosecuted?

Yes. I'd be shocked if even 0.1% were prosecuted. Criminal behavior including violent assault and planting of false evidence is damn common. Prosecution almost never heard of.

But hey, prove me wrong.

socal2 says

But the BLM movement and NFL protests are all based on the notion that our country's criminal justice system is racist top to bottom.

Your statement is meaningless. Exactly how are you measuring how much crime by cops is due directly or indirectly to racism? How much would be acceptable to you? How much would it take for you to not ignore the racial component or to acknowledge the validity of including race as part of the discussion of the problem?

The bottom line is that no criminal behavior by cops should be tolerated and race is a significant aspect of that criminal behavior. Statistics proves this beyond any doubt whatsoever. You might not be able to prove if an individual incident is racially motivated, but statistics ensures that you can precisely measure the factor of race in the aggregate, and it's damn significant.

In any case, tolerating violence against minorities only increases the chance that violence will be used wrongfully against you and your family. First they came for the socialists... The only way to protect your rights is to protect everybody else's.

socal2 says

Once the South ditched the racist Democrat party and became Republicans, they became less racist.

Your statement is entirely incorrect. The American South has always been evil and they ditched the Democratic Party because they were racist and wanted to continue racism when Kennedy and Johnson were promoting civil rights. On behalf of Nixon, the entire Republican Party started courting racists. The pre-1960s Democratic Party was not the cause of the racism of the American South, it was the effect. Today's Republican Party is also the effect of the racism of the American South. All the non-racists were kicked out of the Republican Party and became Democrats. You don't get to rewrite history. This is very well documented and the more you spread lies about the history of the two parties, the more opportunities I have to expose those lies.

socal2 says

I agree that criminal cops should be prosecuted. But the BLM movement and NFL protests are all based on the notion that our country's criminal justice system is racist top to bottom. That is flat out false and all of the kneeling athletes should be called out on it.

I think these are separate issues. (1) Police and criminal justice system are deeply unfair, stacked against poor people no matter what their race is, and lets criminal cops off the hook. Provided that blacks are more poor, they get railroaded by justice system more often than others. (2) Blabbering by BLM etc just makes things worse, as they see racism even in weather forecasts, thus turning off many other people who would be sympathetic to their cause if BLM was against police unaccountability and brutality. As it looks now, BLM etc is here to provide political opportunities for their leaders.

drBu says

(2) Blabbering by BLM etc just makes things worse, as they see racism even in weather forecasts, thus turning off many other people who would be sympathetic to their cause

This is entirely my point.

This whole BLM nonsense has given many bad cops a pass.

I still don't think our criminal justice system is systemically corrupt........let alone racist. Many of the towns where unarmed blacks were shot were in towns that had minorities in the majority of the City Councils, minorities as mayors and police chiefs.

Dan8267 says

The fact is that cops who commit murdered are not prosecuted and never face justice. And yes, cops do murder innocent white people as well, but not nearly as often. The criminal cops also plant false evidence, which means that no reasonable juror can ever believe any evidence gathered by the police.

Think about that logic. As long as we successfully prosecute people who put Plutonium-239 in our drinking water, we should be complacent. Most rational folks would not hesitate to prevent the toxic isotope from being put in our drinking supply to begin with.

You are implying that as long as police who violate the rights of African Americans are prosecuted, then the outrageous murder rates in inner city black communities are to be tolerated, and not to be the focus of black athlete PR campaigns.

Why aren't black NFL players speaking out about the ridiculous out of wedlock birth rate in the black community? Or the outrageous obesity rates in the female black community?

The players seem to place the perception of being treated with respect above all else. What a pathetic and bankrupt way to operate.

The Democrats have run Most of the worst inner cities in America for at least half a century.

Baltimore
Chicago
Detroit
Philadelphia
Newark

Not just a bare majority. In most of these places you'd be hard pressed to find elected Republican. Near total control. The Democrats own the inner city and everything that happens there.

Dan8267 says

The bottom line is that no criminal behavior by cops should be tolerated and race is a significant aspect of that criminal behavior.

I get your point here, but let's hold all citizens to this standard. I don't tolerate any criminals whether they're a cop, doctor, mechanic, judge or a black person that is in any of those professions. Unfortunately criminals will always be around. My question is how can we reduce the disproportionate amount of black criminals in our society? Any criminals for that matter? Because if they're all reduced, the police brutality issue would also be reduced because police departments can scrutinize recruits much more and only hire the best. Mind you there will still be some bad ones. Impossible to make it completely go away.

This is why some of the protests ring hollow to me though. Arrrrgghhh, police brutality!!! Hey hillbilly red necks! Stop robbing the liquor store. Hey blacks, stop shooting each other. Stop doing that shit and we need way fewer cops. We know the cause of ALL of this. Yet we blame the wrong things most of the time. How about fixing the cause of needing the cops in the first place? Nah, it's just the cops, the government, my employer and someone of some race besides my own that is causing all of this. No one is to blame and everyone is to blame. LOL.

Why aren't pig corporate billionaires, who own and control the credit/money supply and use that power to buy governments and their media and other government institutions to implement their policy of "Full Spectrum Dominance" by creating "Perpetual Conflict In The Masses" ever discussed on deflective sell outweb sites?

WookieMan says

The other issues I take, and I will try to remember to get you some evidence later tonight, is that most of these guys killing people in chicago are NOT caught and prosecuted. There's so many times I've read articles about the problems here in chicago and it gets swept under the rug by the community. The gangs have control. No one snitches on each other. I want to say it's something like 50% of black on black crime goes unsolved. There's literally probably seriel killers walking around in Chicago yet their own neighbor won't snitch on them even though they've likely seen them kill someone. It's rather sick.

I was being conservative. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-homicide-clearance-rate-20160909-story.html
This is just one of the articles I vaguely remember reading. At some point, at least in Chicago, what the hell can cops do? These teenagers and young men are literally significantly safer joining the armed services in some form and going to Afghanistan (or soon to be North Korea). Cops do bad things, you won't hear me argue that. I just don't think you can attack that problem until you try to reduce the real problem that they (the cops) deal with on a daily basis. They deal with a completely uncooperative group of people, that have likely seen someone get shot and hate the cops enough to not even cooperate.

drBu says

I think these are separate issues. (1) Police and criminal justice system are deeply unfair, stacked against poor people no matter what their race is, and lets criminal cops off the hook. Provided that blacks are more poor, they get railroaded by justice system more often than others.

These are the real issues.
1. The courts are corrupt and will not prosecute criminal cops. The only solution to this is a separate court system to try cops. The existing court system will not prosecute cops because their power is enforced by cops.
2. The court system is designed to maximize profits, not justice.
3. Poor people get shit legal representation.
4. Adjusted for poverty, blacks get far more time and are prosecuted far more often than whites especially in drug laws. This is the racist part.
5. The war on drug was created to prevent blacks from voting. This is also a racist part.
6. The penal system is designed to maximize recidivism because recidivism is profitable to the courts and the prison industry.
7. There are perverse financial incentives for police, courts, and prison guards.

drBu says

Blabbering by BLM etc just makes things worse, as they see racism even in weather forecasts, thus turning off many other people who would be sympathetic to their cause if BLM was against police unaccountability and brutality.

BLM started out as a civil movement to stop the wholesale murder of innocent blacks, particularly men. It was demonized by the conservative right immediately, and later taken over by SJWs and vandals. That does not mean the original message is wrong. It is a fact that cops are more likely to shoot innocent black men than any other group. It is a fact that many cops do not value the lives of the black men they shoot. Why is a secondary question. The facts themselves are indisputable.

I don't give a shit about slogans, hash tags, and identity politics. The bottom line is that the police state needs to be stopped regardless of racism, although racism is certainly part of the problem. However, even if racism suddenly ended, there would still be criminal cops, and that must be stopped.

Blurtman says

Think about that logic. As long as we successfully prosecute people who put Plutonium-239 in our drinking water, we should be complacent. Most rational folks would not hesitate to prevent the toxic isotope from being put in our drinking supply to begin with.

You are implying that as long as police who violate the rights of African Americans are prosecuted, then the outrageous murder rates in inner city black communities are to be tolerated, and not to be the focus of black athlete PR campaigns.

WTF? That's not remotely what I'm saying. And I don't imply things. I outright state them with the conviction of a thousand burning suns. I don't do subtly. I do clarity.

You are being ridiculous in stating that the athletes are wrong for not adopting other causes you rather they adopt. The fact is that in order for any grassroot movement to be successful, it must be focused. There are thousands of worthy causes that the athletes could have taken up, but if they took up more than one, they would fail. Just because you don't like the cause they pick, does not make them hypocrites for not focusing on something else instead. You are trivializing the murders, assaults, and terrorism committed by criminal cops.

And yes, terrorism is the proper term. When the police kill innocent people, they are literally committing acts of terror and terrorizing communities. When they do this they are no different from any other terrorist scumbag. So calling for an end to terrorism is hardly an outlandish cause.

Can you give one reason why the public should not be made aware of the travesty of justice that has been plaguing one in eight American citizens for the past 50 years?

Dan8267 says

These are the real issues.
1. The courts are corrupt and will not prosecute criminal cops. The only solution to this is a separate court system to try cops. The existing court system will not prosecute cops because their power is enforced by cops.
2. The court system is designed to maximize profits, not justice.
3. Poor people get shit legal representation.
4. Adjusted for poverty, blacks get far more time and are prosecuted far more often than whites especially in drug laws. This is the racist part.
5. The war on drug was created to prevent blacks from voting. This is also a racist part.
6. The penal system is designed to maximize recidivism because recidivism is profitable to the courts and the prison industry.
7. There are perverse financial incentives for police, courts, and prison guards.

I agree with #3. The rest is just nonsense.
You expect the taxpayer to pay $10 million like OJ did, just to get away with murder. Ain't gonna happen. Just because they are poor does not make them innocent.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

The Democrats have run Most of the worst inner cities in America for at least half a century.

The Democrats have also the very most productive cities and states for the past half century including Silicon Valley and New York City.

Meanwhile the Republicans have ran the poorest states and bankrupted them. Have you seen Kansas?

The bottom line is that Republicans can't handle business, money, debt, or technology. They suck at both economics and government. They destroyed the middle class while crushing America with debt. They deliberately sabotaged the economy for political gain. Republican voters have never produced anything. The only wealth obtained by Republican states has been due to natural resources that just happen to be in the states. Meanwhile, blue states have created everything in our economy except high fructose corn syrup. All tech comes from liberals. All entertainment as well. These two industries are the only exporting industries and are responsible for most of the wealth creation in the United States.

As bad as Democrats are, they are always better on the economy than Republicans because they don't sell off America at fire sale prices.

WookieMan says

Unfortunately criminals will always be around.

Not even I am that pessimistic about the future. With the exception of financial crime and crimes committed by cops and other government agents, all crime has been plummeting. There is every reason to believe this trend will continue.

WookieMan says

My question is how can we reduce the disproportionate amount of black criminals in our society?

It's already being done.









We are rapidly approaching a crime-free society. If it doesn't feel that way to you, it's because news outlets use scare tactics to drive up ratings.

The reality is that you live in the safest time in all of human history.

Dan8267 says

We are rapidly approaching a crime-free society. If it doesn't feel that way to you, it's because news outlets use scare tactics to drive up ratings.

The reality is that you live in the safest time in all of human history.

That's awesome. I wonder what caused violent crime to go down since 1981. Here are 3 possible reasons.
1. When Reagan became President the economy started improving. A better economy leads to more jobs and less crime.
2. A tougher crackdown on criminals. Like when Clinton set out to hire 100,000 policemen.
3. Three strikes.

4. Technology to easier catch criminals with.

WookieMan says

Because if they're all reduced, the police brutality issue would also be reduced because police departments can scrutinize recruits much more and only hire the best.

Your statement is empirically false. Police brutality has increased as crime has decreased. Police brutality is largely a function of militarization of police forces. A police force trained to act like an army does act like an army. And armies exist solely to kill. That's what armies do. That's all armies do.

WookieMan says

Mind you there will still be some bad ones. Impossible to make it completely go away.

Again, I'm not nearly as pessimistic as you. Police all over western Europe are civilize and do not unnecessarily kill people. They do not commit assault. They do not rape. They do not break the law. Europe has proved beyond any doubt, reasonable or otherwise, that is is possible to have police forces that are not corrupt, not criminal, and not violent. The problem America is facing has already been solved in Europe. What you think is impossible has already been done in many nations.

It largely comes down to
- Accountability
- Not militarizing the police
- Community policing
- Focusing on rehabilitation rather than punishment and suffering
- Adopting the attitude that someone who commits a crime is still a member of the society and will be released, so it's best to treat that person like a human being instead of turning him into a monster. You don't want monsters on the street.

WookieMan says

Stop robbing the liquor store. Hey blacks, stop shooting each other. Stop doing that shit and we need way fewer cops. We know the cause of ALL of this. Yet we blame the wrong things most of the time. How about fixing the cause of needing the cops in the first place? Nah, it's just the cops, the government,

This is a straw man argument. The take a knee movement is about all the innocent and nonthreatening blacks who have been slaughtered by criminal police who never had to answer for their crimes. It's not about cops shooting people who are actually being a threat to someone. Occasionally someone who is a threat will be mistaken as not having been a threat, but that's because in the vast majority of the time the police do shoot people who are absolutely no threat. Case in point, Charles Kinsey.

Charles Kinsey is a law-abiding citizen who never committed a crime in his life. He was not the suspect in any crime. He is an educated professional behavior therapist who was trying to get an autistic man to cooperate with the police. When the police became aggressive, he lied down with his hands very visibly raised showing that he posed absolutely no threat. Yet he was shot by the police who then tried to cover it up as an accident. Luckily, the evidence and public outcry was enough to convince the courts to prosecute.

Now if being unarmed, law abiding, lying down with your hands up, complying with every order of the cops, and being completely cooperative isn't enough to keep a black man form being shot, what the hell is enough? Do they have to dye their skin white? What the fuck would you have done differently in that situation to keep form being shot? I'm willing to bet neither you nor anyone else has an answer to that question.

Strategist says

I agree with #3. The rest is just nonsense.

Then prove that it is nonsense. I've shown plenty of evidence to support all these points.

Strategist says

You expect the taxpayer to pay $10 million like OJ did, just to get away with murder. Ain't gonna happen. Just because they are poor does not make them innocent.

These are bullshit straw man arguments. OJ got away with murder because he was a celebrity. It has nothing to do with criminal cops committing murder and not being prosecuted.

Nor did I say anything remotely like all poor people are innocent. However, I have given plenty of examples of innocent men who were shot and who were killed by the police.

What crime did that 9-year-old girl shot by the cop who framed the grandmother commit? What was her crime, Strategist? And what crime did Charles Kinsey commit? Maybe you should follow your own advice and not consider every black person guilty regardless of reality or evidence.

The fact is that you, Strategist, don't give a shit if innocent people are killed in your vindictive bloodlust to kill or punish criminal, and that makes you blind to the most dangerous criminals, the ones with the power of the state behind them.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

I agree with #3. The rest is just nonsense.

Then prove that it is nonsense. I've shown plenty of evidence to support all these points.

You have proved nada. Anecdotal evidence is irrelevant.

Dan8267 says

What crime did that 9-year-old girl shot by the cop who framed the grandmother commit? What was her crime, Strategist? And what crime did Charles Kinsey commit? Maybe you should follow your own advice and not consider every black person guilty regardless of reality or evidence.

I'm all for bad cops being severely punished. Bad cops are even more dangerous than criminals. I think they should receive double the punishment an average citizen would receive for similar crimes.
And I don't consider every Black person guilty. That is a silly accusation.

Dan8267 says

The fact is that you, Strategist, don't give a shit if innocent people are killed in your vindictive bloodlust to kill or punish criminal, and that makes you blind to the most dangerous criminals, the ones with the power of the state behind them.

Actually, I don't care for criminals being killed, regardless of race, religion, gender, occupation etc. I want them all dead. If we had no criminals, we would have no innocent deaths.

Strategist says

You have proved nada. Anecdotal evidence is irrelevant.

Neither statistics nor case examples are anecdotal.

Strategist says

And I don't consider every Black person guilty. That is a silly accusation.

Far less silly than your accusation of me.

Dan8267 says

We are rapidly approaching a crime-free society. If it doesn't feel that way to you, it's because news outlets use scare tactics to drive up ratings.

The reality is that you live in the safest time in all of human history.

I'm fully aware of this. Outside of me being on a two week vacation and someone noticing a pattern of us not being home and robbing my house (not me personally), I have no concern. I'm genuinely not concerned about myself when it comes to crime.

In one year though, crime (murders) in Chicago jumped back up to damn near record levels (2016). 2017 should just be short of last year, but who knows where it will end up. Why is this? I agree we're becoming a more crime free society as a whole. Not every part of our society is though. And I don't think cops can be blamed for that (not saying that's what you're implying). I just sometimes think the status quo is just fine for the most part. Trying to dramatically tweak something, because of a few bad and highly publicized instances, is not good policy or protestation. Police were very likely part of the major reduction of crime over the last two decades. The rate of illicit behavior by police has also probably been reduced along with the reduction in crime. Ultimately what I'm getting at is that government and society as a whole could seemingly give a flying fuck about blacks. And they seemingly don't care for themselves.

So what's the solution? I don't want to hear about cops, money, jobs or government. Those things haven't worked. Integrating blacks into American society as a whole has been a decades long issue, maybe generations. Mexicans don't seemingly have much of a problem. Asians aren't really "native" here if that makes sense and is okay to say, but 9 out of 10 times they completely integrate. Indians (India). And the list goes on. I know all these groups aren't races, but they all probably have one thing in common, they were treated like shit by a cop at one time or another. Somehow that didn't stop them from moving on and doing the best they can. And I'm sure these other groups were treated just peachy by the typical white American (wetback, chink and so on). I just don't get all this, but I suppose I'm privileged.

And I'll be honest, feel free to paint me as a racist. That's what I feel like is coming. Hard questions and statements need to be made for a portion of society that seemingly could give two fucks about integrating. If we're truly a global economy and world, why is it that black areas, countries and entire continents are mostly incompetent? And if it makes any sense, I really do say that with a sense of compassion.

Bring the heat. Change my perception. I'm all ears.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

And I don't consider every Black person guilty. That is a silly accusation.

Far less silly than your accusation of me.

ha ha ha ha. Dan, you are so funny. I have rightfully accused you of so many things. So which one are you referring to?

Dan8267 says

Now if being unarmed, law abiding, lying down with your hands up, complying with every order of the cops, and being completely cooperative isn't enough to keep a black man form being shot, what the hell is enough? Do they have to dye their skin white? What the fuck would you have done differently in that situation to keep form being shot? I'm willing to bet neither you nor anyone else has an answer to that question.

Nothing would have changed that situation. It was either a racist cop or a cop that couldn't handle the nerves of the job and "thought" he was in danger.

Again, that one situation can't be applied to entire police forces. This type of stuff also can't be applied to European nations. 2nd amendment and all. So you really can't compare our police forces to theirs. The reality is, guns aren't going anywhere in America (I don't own). So police here unfortunately have to be aware of the dangers. Some of them can't handle it. Some of them look for it. And some of them are just straight up ass holes. But if you don't think cops in EU countries aren't doing illegal activities on the job then you're a little naive about human nature.

WookieMan says

So what's the solution?

There is no single magic bullet. There are a number of reforms that I propose.

1. Cease all use of military equipment by the police.
2. End the war on drugs. Decriminalize drugs and treat addiction as a medical problem. This works in every country it has been tried in.
3. End all prohibitions on U.S. citizens over 18 from voting. This includes denying the freedom to vote to felons. A right, by definition, cannot be taken away. Voting should be a right, not a privilege, and making it a privilege gives the state a perverse incentive to criminalize people and creates corruption.
4. All cops should be monitored with body cameras. The same goes for every state-issued gun.
5. The video feed should be stored and accessible to the public.
6. Prisoners should have access to review the video and flag crimes. Who's better to police the police than prisoners? They have the time and motivation.
7. Cops should be tried in a separate court system ran by judges and prosecutors who do not work with cops in trying civilians. This avoids the conflict of interest in our current court system.
8. When a cop is found guilty of a crime, that cop's entire department pays a large civil penalty that is taken from their paychecks and retirement accounts unless that department arrested the cop guilty of the crime. This gives motivation for cops to not tolerate criminal behavior from fellow cops.
9. Don't use prisons as mental illness institutions. Instead use real mental illness institutions to treat the mentally ill.
10. Repeal all victimless crime laws.
11. Use the European prison model. I've posted videos of it on other threads. It works. It's proven.
12. Ban plea bargains. 90% of cases never go to trial because the accused simply cannot risk getting a much longer sentence by exercising his right to trial.

Those twelve reforms are a damn good place to start.

Strategist says

I have rightfully accused you of so many things

Only in your delusional mind.

Strategist says

So which one are you referring to?

The false accusation that I think all poor people are innocent of all crimes. I gave multiple examples of people who were innocent and the cops did plant evidence, shoot, and/or murder the innocent person.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

So which one are you referring to?

The false accusation that I think all poor people are innocent of all crimes. I gave multiple examples of people who were innocent and the cops did plant evidence, shoot, and/or murder the innocent person.

So you gave more anecdotal evidence. When are you gonna realize anecdotal evidence is not evidence.

Dan8267 says

There is no single magic bullet. There are a number of reforms that I propose.

Agreed. No magic bullet otherwise it would have been done already.
Dan8267 says

1. Cease all use of military equipment by the police.

I generally agree. I still think it's more a training/personality issue with each individual that causes more harm then the equipment they're given. We've seen plenty of scenarios where a taser was appropriate and someone ended up shot. That's not some armored vehicle running over a gang banger with a 9mm. But yes, 98% of police departments don't need military grade equipment.
Dan8267 says

2. End the war on drugs. Decriminalize drugs and treat addiction as a medical problem. This works in every country it has been tried in.

Agreed. Zero argument from me on this. Only thing is I want less government where appropriate, but feel free to tax drugs just enough to keep the black market impossible to keep afloat. Reduces crime and should easily bring in more than enough revenue to deal with what invariably is already happening with opioids and other heavy drugs. Weed not being legal is an absolute failure of our society. Anyone who wants it can get it. Always been that way.
Dan8267 says

3. End all prohibitions on U.S. citizens over 18 from voting. This includes denying the freedom to vote to felons. A right, by definition, cannot be taken away. Voting should be a right, not a privilege, and making it a privilege gives the state a perverse incentive to criminalize people and creates corruption.

Don't agree too much on this one. Just don't commit a felony. It's really an easy thing to do. Reality is anyone that is a felon is probably very unlikely to vote anyway, so that's I guess why I don't get this one. The whole being able to do X at X age is completely asinine though. Never understood why there's some magical distinction between 18 and 21.
Dan8267 says

4. All cops should be monitored with body cameras. The same goes for every state-issued gun.

No problem here. Body cameras are being implemented on a rather large and quick scale across many departments. Especially the large ones. It does take time though. I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at with the state-issued gun. Are you saying a camera should be installed on the weapon?
Dan8267 says

5. The video feed should be stored and accessible to the public.

What video? What about detectives within a police department? Are they required to wear the body cams and then is that video then publicly accessible? Is it possible to do what you're saying? Sure. Is it realistic and best use of tax payer money? No. How long is it stored for? You could be talking 1,000 cops daily in larger departments, multiple shifts per day and hour and hours of video. I'm not seeing this point being a reality for a while, if ever. I live in a tiny town and this would add substantial dollars to the annual budget.
Dan8267 says

6. Prisoners should have access to review the video and flag crimes. Who's better to police the police than prisoners? They have the time and motivation.

I don't get this one at all. A biased, convicted prisoners should have zero influence on anything. This is a bad idea.
Dan8267 says

7. Cops should be tried in a separate court system ran by judges and prosecutors who do not work with cops in trying civilians. This avoids the conflict of interest in our current court system.

Not a bad idea, but financially impossible in most areas. In most cases it would have to be run at the state level. You're going to need two full time dedicated judges and 2-3 full time prosecutors at a minimum and that's in a very small county. That staffing, salaries and benefits alone is $500k in most counties at a bare minimum. I just don't see where the will and money would come from without the state running it. And still, money. At least here in IL.
Dan8267 says

8. When a cop is found guilty of a crime, that cop's entire department pays a large civil penalty that is taken from their paychecks and retirement accounts unless that department

I get where you going, but this is a lunatics idea. While the stakes aren't the same, throw this same concept at any other field/profession. It wouldn't be allowed. It's DOA and always will be. You can't control other humans. And even when you see something wrong (whether you like it or not) it sometimes is not in your best interest to report it. This will ALWAYS exist.
Dan8267 says

9. Don't use prisons as mental illness institutions. Instead use real mental illness institutions to treat the mentally ill.

This one is tricky. Again I get what you're saying. But to some ANY criminal activity is a mental illness. Or put more simply, criminals are mentally ill. Either way I generally agree that more mental rehabilitation (if that makes sense) needs to be done with criminal prisoners. If they're deemed legit mentally ill, then they need to be treated that way regardless of the crime.
Dan8267 says

10. Repeal all victimless crime laws.

Agree on this for the most part. There are other examples but one area I would have issue with is a degenerate gamblers (there are other areas as well). Chicago doesn't have a casino. They want one. Let's say they get one. Next thing you know there's a 8% uptick in bankruptcies within 12 months of a casino opening in Chicago. If Chicago's revenue issues caused them to open a casino and therefore there's a large uptick in people going broke, that's a problem. While victimless, there was potentially a cause because a city can't raise revenue through other means.
Dan8267 says

11. Use the European prison model. I've posted videos of it on other threads. It works. It's proven.

Haven't looked this up. Outside of length of time being in prison (aging out of your criminal years), the US really doesn't do much to help prisoners. Not saying that's the job. But not sure what the expected result is locking someone up for 2 years and then expect them to be model citizens. Again, didn't look up the European model you speak of.
Dan8267 says

12. Ban plea bargains. 90% of cases never go to trial because the accused simply cannot risk getting a much longer sentence by exercising his right to trial.

I don't know the intricacies with this one. I actually don't think the criminals would agree with you on this one. But I suppose it's not their choice. This one is whatever for me.

I'm getting tired and don't want to come up with new ideas. I'll try to think of some, because many of these don't address the underlying societal problems with a specific and important sector of our society.

Strategist says

So you gave more anecdotal evidence. When are you gonna realize anecdotal evidence is not evidence.

Court cases are not anecdotal evidence. Neither are the plethora of statistics on race issues. Just because you call something anecdotal doesn't make it so. Anecdotal means based on personal experience. Nothing I have submitted here is based on my personal experience.

WookieMan says

Agreed. No magic bullet otherwise it would have been done already.

Not necessarily true. Most of the problems in our society are due to lack of political will rather than technical difficulties. It just happens that this particular problem has many causes, so no single solution will fix all of them. The same is not true for problems in general. Sometimes a single cause is responsible for a plethora of symptoms.

WookieMan says

Don't agree too much on this one. Just don't commit a felony. It's really an easy thing to do. Reality is anyone that is a felon is probably very unlikely to vote anyway, so that's I guess why I don't get this one

There is absolutely no reasonable justification for denying the vote to felons. There are plenty of reasons for not doing so including

1. Felons pay taxes. This country was founded on the principle of no taxation without representation.
2. People who have to obey laws should have a say into what those laws are.
3. There is no reason or evidence to believe that someone who commits a felon would cast "worse" votes than someone who does not.
4. Depriving people of the right to vote, even if they choose not to exercise that right, alienates people and contributes to antisocial behavior, resentment, and disloyalty.
5. Denying anyone the right to vote is immoral and undermines the honor of the country and makes the idea of the American flag being a symbol of freedom utterly laughable.
6. The less investment people have in society, the more likely they are to commit crimes or simply not be helpful or friendly to their fellow countrymen.
7. Resentment is based down from generation to generation. Do you think the children of people denied the right to vote are going to have a good opinion of the country or loyalty to their countrymen?
8. Making voting a privilege that the government can revoke only serves to create the very perverse incentives that created the war on drugs and countless political prisoners in the U.S.
9. Denying people the right to vote causes inferior government in both democracies and republics like the U.S. because the government only has to listen to a smaller segment of the population.
10. Denying people the right to vote undermines the moral high ground the U.S. seeks when opposing Russia, China, North Korea, or any other non-democratic state.
11. It is a national embarrassment that voting has never been a right and still is not a right to this day.
12. The fewer voters there are, the less politicians are held accountable.
13. Many felonies should not even be crimes. For example, in many states having oral sex with your spouse is a felony under anti-sodomy laws. Even though it's not usually enforced, it can be at any time and arbitrarily so.
14. Overcriminalization and selective enforcement of laws is ripe for corruption and abuse. Allowing the state to take away votes only aggravates this problem.
15. Letting the government decide which adult citizens can and cannot vote is the very definition of big government.
16. In practicality, it's often racist.
17. Even if it's not racist, it appears racist making America look worse and furthering divisions and racial tensions.

WookieMan says

Are you saying a camera should be installed on the weapon?

Yes, as well as a microphone and a chip for recording all shots. Call it a smart gun. We have smart everything else. It's about time to put smarts in guns. It's cheaper than all the domestic spying our government does.

WookieMan says

Is it possible to do what you're saying?

All active or armed police should be wearing body cameras at all time. It protects honest cops from false allegations and the public from criminal cops. It also makes a cop far less likely to commit a crime just like the camera does with everyone else.

WookieMan says

Is it realistic and best use of tax payer money? No.

You do realize that the government literally stores every fucking packet that crosses any major router in the tier one and tier two ISPs, right? And they have been doing so for over a decade. The government has absolutely no problems with storage. Storage is damn cheap. The government easily spends a hundred times as much on domestic spying then the costs of storing all the body cam videos for at least 20 years, more than enough time to find any crimes committed.

Salaries for cops are far more costly than storing such video. If you fire one crooked cop, you've saved the tax payers money.

WookieMan says

I'm not seeing this point being a reality for a while, if ever. I live in a tiny town and this would add substantial dollars to the annual budget.

You don't seem to realize how cheap video and bandwidth is. Every phone today has multiple high resolution cameras and the ability to broadcast high def video to the entire world, and technology is only becoming better and cheaper. The 1990s called and they want your objections back.

WookieMan says

Dan8267 says

6. Prisoners should have access to review the video and flag crimes. Who's better to police the police than prisoners? They have the time and motivation.

I don't get this one at all. A biased, convicted prisoners should have zero influence on anything. This is a bad idea.

This is another thing you don't understand about technology. Crowdsourcing works regardless of the intent of the users. It's a proven strategy. All the system has to do is record flags of videos by the user flagging them. Automatic data mining makes it utterly fucking trivial to determine which users are reliable, which are essentially random, and which are contrary indicators. There is absolutely no down side to this kind of crowdsourcing. The system figures out which videos are most likely to contain evidence of crimes based on the aggregation of user flags coupled with the history of the user's reliability. Highly likely videos are reviewed by prosecutes. Such a system makes finding the videos with evidence of a crime practically costless. You underestimate the power of technology.

WookieMan says

That staffing, salaries and benefits alone is $500k in most counties at a bare minimum.

Keeping people in prison is by far the most costly part of law enforcement. If you prevent dirty cops from planting evidence and sending innocent people to prison then you save the taxpayers money.

Furthermore, with the shitload we spend on the military, this is like pissing in the ocean, and it has a far greater effect on the safety of the American public. Divert spending from the military.

WookieMan says

I get where you going, but this is a lunatics idea. While the stakes aren't the same, throw this same concept at any other field/profession. It wouldn't be allowed. It's DOA and always will be. You can't control other humans. And even when you see something wrong (whether you like it or not) it sometimes is not in your best interest to report it. This will ALWAYS exist.

The primary reason for criminal cops is protection of such criminals by other cops. This is the right and rational thing to do, and it will solve the problem. As I've said, political will is always the problem. It was the reason slavery and segregation went on for so long. It is the reason that climate change is not being addressed. It is the reason the middle class is deteriorating. I can give you the solution to problems, but it's up to you to have the political will to implement them.

WookieMan says

This one is tricky. Again I get what you're saying. But to some ANY criminal activity is a mental illness.

When a prisoner is mentally ill that he literally has retard voice, then your court system is locking up people who should be in a mental health institution. There are plenty of people in prison who are so obviously mentally ill and you can tell from their voices.

WookieMan says

Dan8267 says

12. Ban plea bargains. 90% of cases never go to trial because the accused simply cannot risk getting a much longer sentence by exercising his right to trial.

I don't know the intricacies with this one. I actually don't think the criminals would agree with you on this one. But I suppose it's not their choice.

It's a manifestation of the tragedy of the commons, which has no place in a legal system or any other system.