patrick.net

Boston Transplant,

One of the basic premises at Vangard is that it's very difficult to outperform an index b/c an index frankly has no overheads. O.K, I guess I can go along with that but over 2/3 is in gov't paper. I'll be honest I don't like gov't paper, never have. Doesn't it strike anyone else as a little strange to why these types of funds are so prevelant in qualified plans?

Wouldn't participants be better off (long term) with more exposure to corp/pfd's? Convertibles? Anything but this pulp?

"The only right trades are those who make money"

God love you sir!

It seems like the level of understanding here regarding MBS is as good as anyone that trades them for a living. The bond desks at most firms are no longer pushing this paper. It's tough to retail and w/all the neg. MSM coverage surrounding RE who needs the headache? It's not my job to create a script to move that inventory, it's done.

Who solved the Poincare Conjecture?

Who cares. Who invented Chicken a la King?

Who invented Chicken a la King?

Yes, that person should be shot.

Yes, that person should be shot.

Why?

I do make Chicken a la King from time to time. It is not that bad.

I've always associated it with bad 1950's-style heavy-creamy vat-like foods. BTW, I prefer epicurious.com for recipe and food facts info. It's more commercial, but the recipes are generally good. Maybe I should head over to the food blog sometime...

I’ve always associated it with bad 1950’s-style heavy-creamy vat-like foods.

I do not usually use a lot of cream. You can even use low-fat milk. I like it more watery than usual. And I use ONLY dark meat.

Somehow breast meat is usually dry no matter how you cook it.

Maybe I should head over to the food blog sometime…

Do come over! greencrabs.blogspot.com

Chicken skin is the best part! :)

I think the popularity of MBS will only go down from here.

How about Labor-Backed Security? The loan can be backed by a guarantee of service or labor over a period of time. :)

How about Labor-Backed Security? The loan can be backed by a guarantee of service or labor over a period of time.

Why not just reinstitute debtors' prison?

They invest for the risk-adjusted returns.

Really? :)

I think it is because most people believe they are above-average stock pickers.

How many people even know what risk-adjusted returns are? They look at all the success stories and they want to be one of them. When they fail, they cry in front of their mothers, or worse yet, government.

Why not just reinstitute debtors’ prison?

You mean debtor's labor camps? :)

OK. Then they “should” invest for risk-adjusted returns. Now if someone could figure out how to quantify risk. Don’t tell me volatility is risk.

Risk is the conceptual possibility of an adverse outcome.

You can perfectly quantify risk only if you can perfectly predict the future. But if you can perfectly predict the future, there is no risk.

Therefore risk does not exist.

Not investment advice

Apparently according to one interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, we don’t really exist either.

Cogito, ergo sum.

BTW, what is the cheapest legal way to shop for canned ox-tail soup and Bovril beef tea?

UK internet stores usually charge $40+ for shipping.

Cogito, ergo sum.

BTW, the phrase means "I think, therefore I eat". :)

Doesn't it say it all:

"history has not dealt kindly with the aftermath of protracted periods of low risk premiums"

Remarks by Chairman Alan Greenspan
Reflections on central banking
At a symposium sponsored by the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City, Jackson Hole, Wyoming
August 26, 2005

http://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/speeches/2005/20050826/default.htm

You'd be real surprised at how many funds that are apparently set up for the sole purpose of betting ON the US demise are investing in MBS and GSEs.

I just found out from my prospectus that Pimco's UNhedged foreign bond fund invests about 10% of its portfolio in GSE and MBS, denominated in USD.

Excuse me, the whole point of me investing in the fund is because I am betting on the USD going DOWN, so what good does it do to me for them to shuffle my money right back into USD, not into treasury, but into the stinky GSE bonds?

So read your propsectus carefully, I guess the fund managers are just running out of ideas.

I'll have to agree w/H.Z when it comes to distancing yourself from MBS. It's nearly impossible. Just a few years ago "green investors" had extreme difficulty washing their hands of things like Phillip Morris etc. I don't suppose any of us can participate in our company 401K or take positions in our brokerage accounts and have the expectation that we're "in the clear"!

Perhaps there's a marketing angle for a new Patrick.net offering above and beyond T-shirts and coffee mugs? Invest in our certified MBS FREE Mutual Fund!

Oh, I should add that in spite of our best efforts we still wind up with (as OO notes above) w/some weighting in MBS doesn't mean we give up! This is the good fight.

As Peter Schiff notes in Allah's audio link, the time to get rid of a bomb is when it's still ticking!

Institutions don't have a lot of choice. Each pay period means a fresh infusion of cash. It has to go somewhere! As individuals we have other options.

Allah,

I like Peter, he and I share a lot in common. My wife works for a Fortune 500 company though and I don't think in spite of her tenure that she would have much say in how their plan is administered. (Most of us don't). But you're right and it's about exercising the freedoms and options when we have them before us!

Person,

In ways, we miss Vangard. When my wife's company got bought out they terminated the long and profitable relationship w/Vangard and went w/Fidelity. Sheesh, take your pick, the 2010, 2020 or the ever popular 2030 Fund! It sucks.

I believe the reason the 401K industry has elected to take the low road is all about liability. That's why we're seeing so much emphasis on "education" at the participant level. After the market meltdown plan sponsors are doing everything in their power to distance themselves from the process! Hence the generic "buffet" of offerings. Allowing real choice like ETF's and country specific funds is more fiduciary liability than most employers are willing to take on. I agree, yuck.

September existing home sales volume AND prices down YoY:

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/061025/economy.html?.v=4

Allah,

I can't disagree with what you say but at some point we all have to decide wether we're going to fish, or cut bait.

When my wife and I decided to sell our home prior to the peak of the market and NOT re-deploy those assets toward an even bigger more ridiculous home we made the choice to rent. I know it sounds simplistic but that's what we did. Since we no longer have a HUGE Schedule "A" to lean on we take the Standardized Deduction of around 10K. (Married filing joint). When you're used to having around 30K + in itemized deductions, this is a huge hole. Since neither of us is 50+ we don't get the catch up clause for IRA contributions. Even though I max out my SEP/IRA we still have income that needs to sheltered so for her to take full advantage of her company sponsored plan just makes sense.

(Of course for Peter P this is all moot b/c he believes in "pay as you go" anyway).

Oh Oh Oh,

and when your daughter (whom you support almost entirely) asks you if she can claim herself so she can "get back" $346 in taxes...... that doesn't help either!

Of course you can dear.

Speaking of international diversification, does anyone agree with me that younger investors should probably have something like 90-100% of their investable assets in foreign securities? I know this seems drastic--especially compared with the conventional wisdom that you should not have more than 25% exposure to foreign markets--but is it really?

For instance, in my case I know that 100% of my future earnings will be dollar-denominated. So if the dollar crashes, my paycheck will not buy nearly as much gasoline, heating oil, or foreign-made goods. It is likely that my future earnings will be at least 10 or 20x the amount of my investment portfolio. So then isn't it true to say that 90-95% of my future net worth is *already* tied to the dollar? Why not hedge this massive exposure by investing my small investment portfolio entirely in foreign markets?

Glen,

Not radical for you at your age or me at my age! Like FRIFY said, for him to buy a home in the BA would mean something like 98% of his net worth would be in ONE undiversified investment, all dollar denominated btw.

I got no problems with where you're coming from.

skibum,

The article you linked noted a decline in the median price of a home but failed to define what "median" implies! Now we have to log on to Realty Times to get that informations......

George,

I'd read an article about a home in an exclusive FL area that had been on the market for months on end at like 900K without a single written offer. Then out of the blue someone offers 1.15 mil! Yeah, that's what I thought. What, was the buyer in some sort of imaginary bidding war with himself? No, not really. Just a "helpful" neighbor. Seems even those in "upscale" communities could use a little MEW love once in awhile. Because they can't legitimately sell their homes on the market, they sell them to each other AND at above asking price! Wish I lived in a neighborhood with that much "love".

Scumbags.

Allah,

During the 90's when people were throwing money at the US market with both fists who the hell needed to pay a dividend? Dividend at that point meant cash cow and cash cow meant no growth! People actually shunned these "old economy" stocks. Twisted..... I know.

Back in the day old timers bought the stock not so much for appreciation but simply for the div. If it went up at all great but it really was about the dividend. Things have come full circle and they're now back in vogue (along w/ "old economy" stocks!)

One definite advantage that I see for the ADR's and pure Euro plays is that their accounting is handled on a rotational basis so you don't have the "Arthur Anderson Effect" where auditors get too chummy!

DinOR and Glen: You’ll have to help me out, since monetary economic theory always throws me for a loop. How does the dollar denomination of a house or domestic equity investments expose you to a risk of the dollar declining? If dollars are worth less, then the house or domestic equities will be worth more … in dollars. Even if the dollar becomes completely obsolete, you could redeem those (non-money) investments in whatever the new currency is, right?

This is a tricky issue for me too and I don't claim to have mastered it. However, it seems to me that your dollar exposure of any asset is related (though not perfectly) with the source of income earned by the asset. A few examples:
1. House: Compare a US house to a house in Japan. In both cases, the income is derived from real or imputed rental income. For simplicity, assume both houses are rented out. If I buy a house in Japan and the dollar declines 20% vs. the Yen, then my rental stream increases by 20% and the cost of Toyotas in the US increases 20%. Thus, my ability to buy a Toyota is unaffected. If I buy a house in the US and the dollar declines 20% vs. the Yen, then my rental income stream stays constant in US dollars, but I have 20% less Toyota purchasing power.
2. Stock: The analysis is complicated by the fact that many global companies earn money all over the world. A foreign company that exports most of its product to US consumers may actually have more exposure to the dollar than a US company that earns most of its money overseas (not to mention the complicating factor of hedging by US and foreign companies). But overall, it is safe to say that a foreign index fund has much less exposure to the dollar than a US stock index fund. For simplicity, assume I can choose between two stocks--USA Co. or Canada Co. USA Co. makes products exclusively for the US market. They earn $10M US dollars per year selling products to the US market. Canada Co. earns $10M Canadian dollars per year selling products to the Canada market. Assume we start the analysis when the US and Canadian dollars are trading 1 for 1. Now the dollar crash hits. One US dollar only buys 80 cents Canadian. Now the $10M in US earnings only buys 80% as much Canadian goods. But the $10M Canadian dollars still buys $10M worth of Canadian goods (or $12.5 Million in American goods).

Who writes this stuff? Realtwhores? How can they say that these places are bubble-proof?

Funny, that's more or less the list I would have come up with for some of the bubbliest places in the US! Actually, Boston is first-tier bubble - poor jobs market, population decline, high prices. NY, SF and LA are "second tier" bubblespots, as they do have an economy outside of RE speculation. Parts of FL, LV, SD, AZ, Central Valley on the other hand...

@DinOR,

I just checked over with our friends at RealtyTimes.com - no explanation of "median" price drops. What a shocker. I did go to the NAR press release, though:

http://www.realtor.org/press_room/news_releases/2006/ehs_sept06_existing_home_sales_ease.html

Gotta love the spin! Here are some choice lies, er, quotes:

Title:
September Existing-Home Sales Ease, Setting State for Stable Market

Yeah, setting the stage for a stable market in about 10 years, maybe.

NAR President Thomas M. Stevens from Vienna, Va., said the industry is encouraged that the number of homes on the market is starting to decline. “It appears we have passed a cyclical peak in terms of the number of homes on the market,” said Stevens, senior vice president of NRT Inc. “The good news is that fewer new listings are coming online. A stable sales pace is expected to draw down the number of listings to a supply balance that will support positive price growth within a few months. Taking the long view is always the best way to approach housing decisions, and right now, buyers are in a very favorable market.”

That's right. We're all set now. I guess we can forget to mention that inventory always decreases in the winter months. BTW, has this guy's home in VA sold yet? Or is he still not listening to his realtor?

Mojo already gave us Learah's choice quote. These guys are inadvertantly setting us up for a Spring massacre. I think these types of comments will give many sellers hope that this Spring will be the start of a return to price apprecation. It's going to be ugly.

Sorry to keep harping on this issue, but looks like oil's up again. The timing seems like we'll see price increases at the pump right after the elections! Funny how that is, eh? Yeah yeah, I know, the market's too complex to be manipulated....but...

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/061025/wall_street.html?.v=16

You can buy Microsoft stock just before the market crashed. It owuld have lost most of its value, but if you didn’t cash in, you could hold on to it for another 30 years and you probably won’t lose nominally on it…..

A better example is Google stock. In my layperson opinion, waaaay overvalued.

A better example is Google stock. In my layperson opinion, waaaay overvalued.

Conoco Philips: >$22 Billion in earnings in the last 3 years, $104B market cap.

Google:

@Glen,

Good one.

Isn’t Campbell down near you somewhere?

Thanks SFWoman. I will check it out.

Oxtail soup may still be difficult though. British beef.

I think mad-cow disease is over-hyped though.

skibum,

I've gotta agree. I can't imagine what Tom Stevens or anyone else at NAR could be thinking? In almost any other business when you have excess inventory putting it off until another quarter or another fiscal year seldom resolves anything. True, in RE the "owner" is paying for the cost "warehousing" the stock but either way it's a burden.

Maybe that's the way we should view NAR's relationship w/the country. We pay the carrying cost for the "merchandise" and they get a commission if and when it sells? At whatever price? I don't know about you guys but anytime I've been charged with moving inventory the first thing you do is at least attempt to sell it existing mark up. Then you discount until you're left with basically close outs and/or consider writing it off as a loss?

Perhaps b/c you believe that "they aren't making any more of it" that it will somehow appreciate or at least retain it's value over the fall and winter and then be able to retail it again in the spring? My experience has been if you can't sell it the previous qtr/year at that price it becomes even more difficult as time goes on. I just don't know where these guys are trying to take the buying public?

"and when your daughter (whom you support almost entirely) asks you if she can claim herself so she can “get back” $346 in taxes…… that doesn’t help either!"

DinOR,

If it makes you feel better, this sort of thing happens in reverse too. My boyfriends' parents dropped his car insurance coverage with them (oh, and unlike your daughter, did not bother to tell him til after the fact) when he went on a 3 months internship in Germany. Result? Maybe $200 of savings to his parents and several years of ramped up car insurance because he had lapsed coverage.

@mojo,

I'm certainly one of the less qualified people on this board to comment on this, but I will anyway...

I'm no gold bug, but I do have a small portion of my portfolio in a gold-related mutual fund. Very volatile, but I think it's reasonable to keep some stake in this asset class.

I check out kitco.com once in a while to see what's going on:

http://www.kitco.com/charts/livegold.html

You can see that prices didn't really shoot up until about a year ago, more acutely from this winter into Spring, but they've been on the decline since then. So current prices are not too bubbly imo when you compare to longer term prices. Gold investment's all about your concern/fears for geopolitical destabilization, US monetary instability, and oil prices. I don't claim to have a firm grasp of how all these factors affect gold prices, but there you go.

Speaking of this, it seems about this time last year there were a slew of gold bugs on all the RE blogs. Where are they now?

SP,

We could make an entire thread on that topic! Obviously I have a vested interest in that and it would make MY business grow immensely. And why not? No one's happy, everyone feels "captive" and performance is lackluster at best. Just sign here that we are forwarding your contribution along w/vested portion to ABC Firm and you are absolving us of any and all liability! Where's the problem?

The way I see that being an uphill battle is that the fund company lobby is powerful and I believe the employers list these funds as an asset on their balance sheet? Since employers are doing everything possible to wash their hands of this where's the problem? Hey, I'll send you a duplicate confirm alright!