patrick.net

Could explain much of why blacks lag behind whites and Asians in education, earnings and wealth. Yet another argument to do away with affirmative action and diversity programs.

If the Spaniards didn't come along and fuck the Indians in Central and South America, who knows how the pure blood Indians would have scored.

ThreeBays says

Yet James Watson himself stated “I cannot understand how I could have said what I am quoted as having said. There is no scientific basis for such a belief.”

lol this is pure angst of never being able to make a dime again in ones senior years speaking, not honesty.

ThreeBays says

Regardless, it's not the science that's objectionable, it's the conclusions. What's the implication of stating "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours"? Should we be changing our social policies to degrade blacks? I reckon we should "nurture" our citizens, including and perhaps more so those that have the most to gain from an improved social environment.

Nobody is degrading anybody by stating scientific outcomes. In fact it's better to know more than less about IQ distributions for all races and genders.

Patrick says

My wife thought the dismissal of Watson may be justified because he made people feel bad. I was quite surprised that feelings, to her, were more important than science.

Women are masters at the feelz and manipulating them so for them it is in their best interest if the whole world is reprogrammed to function based on feelz. That is until bridges crumble, companies fail and power stations explode cause they were constructed and governed with feelz ;)

If Watson would have said "WHITE MALES STUPID AND TOXIC, SHOULD NEVER BE HIRED" then he would not have been hounded. instead, he would be advising Democratic congressional candidates and would be talking on CNNPC all day.
The worst thing is that you can slander some segments of population all day long, while saying anything bad about others is grounds for persecution. One can also remember what happened to Larry Summers as Harvard president after asking a simple question.

willywonka says

Indians in Central and South America, who knows how the pure blood Indians would have scored.

They are genetically quite close to SE Asians, so might be scoring very high.

mell says

And it still doesn't invalidate the measures and the results. You can criticize the IQ test used but you cannot say it doesn't matter or worse threaten sanctions against those who are experts and conduct that research. That's not better than being a nazi. Come up with a different test and have it peer reviewed and accepted but don't go trigglypuff on the messenger.

Yes, and IQ Test results hardly vary. Whether you weight more with verbiage, symmetry and asymmetry, synonym/antonym, identifying similar groups of numbers, etc. the tests give pretty much the same results within the MoE.

d6rB says

willywonka says

Indians in Central and South America, who knows how the pure blood Indians would have scored.

They are genetically quite close to SE Asians, so might be scoring very high.

Arent american Indians also genetically similar? Why are american Indians low in IQ whereas SE asians are high?

I think culture is a HUGE part of IQ.

CBOEtrader says

Arent american Indians also genetically similar? Why are american Indians low in IQ whereas SE asians are high?

I think culture is a HUGE part of IQ.

That is the point. Most of variations in IQ can be explained with cultural influences and how affluent family is. There was a study, deeply unpopular these days, that if you put a black child in a white family, his IQ will be 10-12 pts higher than that of a black child who grew up in a black family in US. Conversely, a white child who grew up in a black family will score 10 pts lower than a white child who grew up in a white family. To me, it says that IQ is more cultural than genetic which is not surprising given how little genetic variation exists among humans. When Africa modernizes, IQ's will go up substantially.
Perhaps TOXIC WHITE CULTURE and toxic Asian culture are the ways to go if we want successful citizenry.

d6rB says

They are genetically quite close to SE Asians, so might be scoring very high.

Illogical. If that were the case, there would be no racial differences at all as everyone is from Africa. But compare Argentina, mostly white, and 1.4% Indian, to Mexico, 12% Indian, to Guatemala, 40% Indian, and the IQ matches, i.e, Argentina: 93, Mexico: 88, Guatemala: 79. The more Indian the population, the less the IQ.

Big Bill Broonzy had it right:

www.youtube.com/embed/k0c1c0ZsTLA

willywonka says

Illogical. If that were the case, there would be no racial differences at all as everyone is from Africa. But compare Argentina, mostly white, and 1.4% Indian, to Mexico, 12% Indian, to Guatemala, 40% Indian, and the IQ matches, i.e, Argentina: 93, Mexico: 88, Guatemala: 79. The more Indian the population, the less the IQ.

That is the point -- culture and wealth determines IQ to a very large extent. American Indians diverged form East Asians AFTER admixture of Denisovans and Neanderthals and they have paternal and maternal haplogroups that are rather common in E. Asia.

willywonka says

"They are genetically quite close to SE Asians, so might be scoring very high." Ok, that was wrong.

that was poorly worded sarcasm on my part

d6rB says

that was poorly worded sarcasm on my part

No worries. SE Asia encompasses a broad range.

d6rB says

Perhaps TOXIC WHITE CULTURE and toxic Asian culture are the ways to go if we want successful citizenry.

You, sir, are a monster.

Ocasio Cortez says using genes to determine intelligence is ridiculous, because you just can't tell how smart a person is by the kind of Levi's they wear.

CBOEtrader says

You, sir, are a monster.

THANK YOU! I suspect my toxic white masculinity shows!

Quigley says

Patrick says

I was quite surprised that feelings, to her, were more important than science

Is she a scientist or have significant science training/degrees? If not, then i don’t know why this is surprising. Women are emotional creatures and place the most importance on relationships. Men place more importance on doing things and understanding our world so that we can tame it and thus provide for women and the children we will make together. This is as nature intended it to be.
My wife actually is highly science trained and she still comes down on the side of emotion quite a bit on these sorts of issues. Maybe 50-50 on those odds for her.

Yes, she has a master's degree in physics, having dropped out of the PhD program at Michigan.

I suggested that women put more importance on feelings in deciding what truths to speak than men do, and she agreed with that. She thought that even if it were true that the races vary on average in temperament and intellectual abilities, people from lower-achieving groups would be unnecessarily discouraged by the revelation of scientific proof of it.

And so it seemed fair to her to fire someone who publicly spoke those truths. I was pretty surprised, since I would say that everyone had the right to speak scientific truths in public without being fired or harassed in other ways.

Another point my wife brought up: how would I feel if it came out that the Irish were not as smart as the English. I said that testing does seem to show the Irish are a couple of IQ points lower than the English on average, and that even though I don't like it, I would not fire anyone for pointing it out.

Both culture and genetics plays a role, probably the former more so than the latter.

There are subgroups in Africa that average very high IQs, the Ibo of Kenya I think?

Interestingly, Herders have the highest IQs and primitive agriculturalists the lowest. In the 19th Century, the first long term studies determined that peasants have great trouble with abstract/hypothetical thinking, probably since they don't encounter it. A herder is always counting, comparing grazing sites, has to evaluate a wide range of threats, train animals, etc. A peasant just hopes for rain.

Yes, I like to point out the Ibo (also spelled Igbo sometimes) of Nigeria. They are the intellectual stars of Africa and have little problem competing with Asians in England or America. So the averages gloss over subgroups.

Indians who move to America are consistently among the highest in IQ rankings, though India overall is rather low. Could be that we are getting a genetic subgroup, or that we are getting the better-nourished upper classes. Probably some of both.

I'm not saying that race is the only factor in intelligence, just that it's extremely unlikely that human genetic variation by race affects height, skin color, milk tolerance, etc etc but utterly stops at intelligence, where all races are absolutely identical.

Patrick says

My wife thought the dismissal of Watson may be justified because he made people feel bad. I was quite surprised that feelings, to her, were more important than science.

Maybe more important than feelings are the fact that any public discourse is political by nature, and politics have practical consequences.
So here you leave people 1 or 2 direct implications away from white nationalism, race based tribalism, etc...
It doesn't lead to holding hands and singing Kumbaya.

Heraclitusstudent says

Patrick says

My wife thought the dismissal of Watson may be justified because he made people feel bad. I was quite surprised that feelings, to her, were more important than science.

Maybe more important than feelings are the fact that any public discourse is political by nature, and politics have practical consequences.
So here you leave people 1 or 2 direct implications away from white nationalism, race based tribalism, etc...
It doesn't lead to holding hands and singing Kumbaya.

I think that left is very crazy about policing speech, and that's what tyrannical governments have always done. They choose lies over truth, and ban truth. It'll very likely lead to tyranny of some sort, right now it's identity politics for sure.

Fortwaynemobile says

I think that left is very crazy about policing speech

You mean censorship.
Free speech doesn't imply that no public shaming will take place based on what people say.

Heraclitusstudent says

Free speech doesn't imply that no public shaming

Correct. Public shaming often takes the form of oppression such as firing someone from a job or removing their honors for speaking the truth.

The left isnt against free speech just pro oppression. eyeroll

No, personally I think the respect of truth should come first. Shaming should apply to people like Alex Jones.

Heraclitusstudent says

Shaming should apply to people like Alex Jones.

workplaces should not fire people for politics of any kind. Deplatforming and/or kicking someone or a company off of email services, payment services, etc... these are the tools of tyranny that the left is cheering on.

Read history please before it's too late

It is not a political opinion but a scientific one coming out of the lab. It becomes political once out.
The lab was justified in correcting the record in 2007. An apology and a paragraph about the Flynn effect and the effects of environmental factors like malnutrition and infectious diseases on brain development, was sufficient.
Did he get fired in 2007 or just removed as as chancellor?
Recent comments may still affect the lab if they are seen as having honored someone publishing unsubstantiated opinions. One problem is the remaining ambiguity of such research.

Heraclitusstudent says

Fortwaynemobile says

I think that left is very crazy about policing speech

You mean censorship.
Free speech doesn't imply that no public shaming will take place based on what people say.

Yes of course that's what I mean. Because they are hurting people's incomes and frequently even engage in physical violence. That's censorship, it's not same as voicing disagreement.

CBOEtrader says

workplaces should not fire people for politics of any kind. Deplatforming and/or kicking someone or a company off of email services, payment services, etc... these are the tools of tyranny that the left is cheering on.

It's interesting. They can't cut your electric, water, or phones for an opinion, but can for your tweets. They can even deplatform you from the entire internet.

We already know there was a 19th Century Robber Baron style Blacklist in Silly Con Valley, yet no real punishment, by lawsuit or by regulators.

Patrick says

Very much like Galileo when faced with the hostility of the Catholic Church for suggesting that the earth moves around the sun: E pur si muove

This thread is interesting in the light of COVID.

True, we have a new religion around the toxxine.

There are believers and there are heretics, and the heretics are getting burned at the stake even though they are right. Or precisely because they are right and this exposes the horrible malfeasance of almost all current governments around the world. They can't allow that.

The proof is in the puddin' head.