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I'd like to respond to Dianna E Anderson (the "incisive" quote marcus inset into his posting)
No, Dianna, you don't have it straight. Let me set you straight.
ICE knows that there are persons outside our borders who would like to obtain access to the country under pretensions of VALIDLY QUALIFYING FOR and thus being granted, legal visas. ICE decided to set up a trap and see if there were any takers. Please note, ICE did NOT contact any of these people on its own. They did not send them letters and say "hey, we want to help you commit a crime, are you interested?" These people saw the ad for the 'school' and decided ENTIRELY ON THEIR OWN to contact the 'school'. The 'school' did not have any classes, did not have a campus, did not have any faculty -- in fact the students were not actually required to be students at all -- they MERELY PAID A FEE and received an apparently legal visa that anyone who was actually a student would know was odd or "weird". In other words, they merely wished to come into, or to remain (in cases where already present as legitimate students whose school closed etc). In other words, THEY DESIRED TO DO AND BELIEVED THEY WERE SUCCESSFULLY DOING, an illegal criminal act.
They key aspect of true entrapment is that, while police may set up undercover officers parading as drug dealers, or hitmen, etc, unless the police go directly to otherwise disinclined persons and say "let me sell you this ounce of blow cheap on credit" or "let me get rid of your wife who is fucking you under with this expensive divorce". Rather, it is the VOLUNTARY COMING FORWARD AND SOLICITING HELP TO IMPLEMENT THE DESIRED CRIME BY THE 'VICTIMS', without anything other than the mere passive existence of the undercover cops in their role as a certain type of criminal, that is the difference from true entrapment.
Possibly some think that if the Border Patrol put up a sign on the US side of the border that said, in Spanish and under floodlights, "we promise not to patrol the border tonight between Tecate and Jacumba", and a bunch of aliens jumped the fence there, and found out the BP lied, and they got arrested, that this is entrapment.
No, it's not -- for the same reason as the U of Farmington. Police passively setting up a situation which appears to those wishing to commit crimes as a perfect opportunity to do so, even if the police pose as someone willing to help the wannabe criminals if the would-be criminals ask for their help, does not constitute entrapment.
They key aspect of true entrapment is that, while police may set up undercover officers parading as drug dealers, or hitmen, etc, unless the police go directly to otherwise disinclined persons and say "let me sell you this ounce of blow cheap on credit" or "let me get rid of your wife who is fucking you under with this expensive divorce".
The "crime" you are referring to is figuring out a way to get a visa to live in the US when their current situation sucks.
I thought about this some more, and I fail to see why the illegals would not also be guilty of a felony charge of "solicitation" of fake visas by submitting knowingly false information in furtherance of gaining the visa. I mean, don't the applicants have to sign off on some representation that they are going to study at a given institution? If they know this to be false, and material to the solicitation?
I believe this meets the "scienter" element in a fraud charge: https://www.merriam-webster.com/legal/scienter
https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/scienter
I'm not buying that bullshit.
bait approach but to color a clear cut fraud/crime as "bullshit"
This is exactly why borders and national identity/culture is so important
Their crime is cutting in line ahead of many honest people who are applying legally and correctly for citizenship.
Plenty of poor Americans suffer greatly because of illegal immigration, in particular American blacks who see their wages forced down because of the flood of illegals.
mell saysbait approach but to color a clear cut fraud/crime as "bullshit"
What I was calling bullshit was the argument that what ICE did here was not basically wasteful and stupid entrapment. This is what you want our government doing with it's immigration enforcement ?
How long do you think it takes for incoming immigrants to become totally americanized ?
No cutting in line, no bullshit amnesty, everybody needs to come here legally and stand in line without cutting corners.
mell saysNo cutting in line, no bullshit amnesty, everybody needs to come here legally and stand in line without cutting corners.
So does that apply to Melania or the wealthy chinese families that pay 500K to cut in line ?
They were cutting lines - Not. There were not in any line to cut
mell saysThey were cutting lines - Not. There were not in any line to cut
What?
They are overtly attempting fraud exactly and only to skip the legal immigration process which law-abiding applicants are obeying.
If that isn't cutting in line, what is?
So does that apply to Melania or the wealthy chinese families that pay 500K to cut in line ?
Student visa is non-immigrant visa. So how is that any kind of 'line" cutting.
indc saysStudent visa is non-immigrant visa. So how is that any kind of 'line" cutting.
It is not line-cutting, it is just plain fraud. Note that students were in US already, probably flunked out of other school.
How is this fraud? Did they gain something at expense of others? What was that they gained?
Student visa is a glorified tourist visa.
Lets assume they flunked? How is that related to immigration topic. They can flunk and apply for another university, flunk again and apply to another university.
Perhaps before worrying about situation in US people should worry about their own countries, and bring them to level where others actually want to stay in those countries
Perhaps before worrying about situation in US people should worry about their own countries, and bring them to level where others actually want to stay in those countries.
indc saysStudent visa is a glorified tourist visa.
No it is not, you have been misled. The conditions for staying are very much different. Tourist visa does not entail performing adequately in classes.
indc saysLets assume they flunked? How is that related to immigration topic. They can flunk and apply for another university, flunk again and apply to another university.
No they can not. F visa rules specifically say that "While on your F-1 visa, you may only study at the academic institution through which the visa was granted".
Also, please see "Maintaining Valid F-1 Status" - The student is considered to be maintaining status if he or she is making normal progress toward completing a course of study.
Furthermore, this applies to flunking in one school and applying to another: (i) A student who is ...
ICE tried to en-trap dumb kids. It is nothing different from those nigerian prince fraud.
About moving between Univ I said "apply": When they apply the new Univ informs ICE and USCIS. How is what you pointed out different from what I said? So their status as student is switched to new Univ. It is not same as moving your kids between Univ.
Your prejudice not wanting outsiders has nothing to do with Immigation policy of USA.
It is nothing different from those nigerian prince fraud.
Now doing legal and illegal things, how do the students in your univ know what is legal and illegal?
Your prejudice not wanting outsiders has nothing to do with Immigation policy of USA. You can fight to change the rules and make sure no international students come to USA. But the topic is legality of what and how ICE tried to en-trap dumb kids. It is nothing different from those nigerian prince fraud.
indc saysYour prejudice not wanting outsiders has nothing to do with Immigation policy of USA. You can fight to change the rules and make sure no international students come to USA. But the topic is legality of what and how ICE tried to en-trap dumb kids. It is nothing different from those nigerian prince fraud.
Are India's laws as kindly and open as the USA's? Nope.
We have rules, they must be followed.
What happened is no different than criminals trying to buy cocaine from undercover cops.
indc saysICE tried to en-trap dumb kids. It is nothing different from those nigerian prince fraud.
How so?
One is a foreigner trying to steal money the other is a foreigner trying to steal entry to our country.
I can see the similarities.
indc saysNow doing legal and illegal things, how do the students in your univ know what is legal and illegal?
Read the laws. I am supposed to know if something I do is legal or illegal as well.
Admittedly, the US immigration/visa system is royally fucked up because of complex rules, mainly put in place to have exemptions for special interests. But ultimately it is up to you to know if what you are doing is legal or illegal.
indc saysYour prejudice not wanting outsiders has nothing to do with Immigation policy of USA. You can fight to change the rules and make sure no international students come to USA. But the topic is legality of what and how ICE tried to en-trap dumb kids. It is nothing different from those nigerian prince fraud.
Are India's laws as kindly and open as the USA's? Nope.
We have rules, they must be followed.
What happened is no different than criminals trying to buy cocaine from undercover cops.
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