patrick.net

Astrid,

I think it's a cute cottage too. I guess I'm thinking of the person who bought the 7,000 sq. ft. house across the street for 3.5M last year. They would probably go crying to the alderman that it's out of code or something.

Paul

SFWoman,

See dryfly's claims re: RPI on the last thread. That was what I was disputing in the first place.

I never said RPI was a bad school; in fact I expressly said RPI was a good school in its field but was disputing its description as the "new ivy" and just below CalTech and MIT as an engineering school.

SFWoman,

I live near Northern Virginia and local boosters are constantly trying to paint it as the next Napa or Loire Valley...so sure, I'll say it, Upper State New York produces drinkable swill :)

live = lived

I live in MD right now, but with a VA license plate.

A couple months ago we went to MO wine country. It was very enjoyable and the wines were nice too. Of course it's not Napa but I think MO has it all over MI.

"none had their school logo tattooed on their foreheads"

Maybe that's next!

As a former east coaster, I can testify that wine country in upstate New York is quite beautiful. Especially in fall, when the leaves are turning. But if you're going to argue that the vino is as good as the scenery... ;)

dryfly,

I really have to say that MIT is not just another also-run. I am in awe of CalTech labs and CalTech people too, and I agree that the top people at other engineering schools could be near the top at MIT.

However, MIT is much bigger than CalTech and specializes in many more fields, as such, it's the Harvard of the Tech schools. It's rather absurd to deny its national and international reputation as the premier American tech school.

http://www.hermannmissouri.com/

SFWoman,

Thanks for tuning me into upper NY ice wine, it sounds quite intriguing. I've heard of ice wine from Germany, but not from NY. Perhaps I should have some with turducken and cranberry sauce.

I'd back up the assessment that beer is your weapon of choice. It cuts through the greasy/sugary nature of BBQ and can counter the spicy as well. You can shoot for either something light and acidic like an IPA, or something heavier like an amber ale or lager.

btw, SFWoman, I know you were joking about the NY quality wines. But you did wish for the outrageous NY boosterism, right? :) And being from PA (the real PA, not Palo Alto), I am geographically obligated to shoot down anything from the northern wastelands.

Except for foliage. I think that's on the exception list, along with Broadway and the Statue of Liberty.

Haven't yet ventured into the relm of turducken but we did make a beer can chicken the other night. It was very tasty!

SFWoman,

I ordered one online from this site:

http://www.cajungrocer.com/turducken-cajun-style-plain-p-341.html

I've never had turducken before, so I have no idea of what to expect. I did buy a meat thermometer in anticipation of its arrival, so hopefully it won't turn out too dreadfully.

Okay. Having spent so much effort on derailing this topic, I'll try to get it back on track.

I have the greatest respect for people who actually rehab derelict property back to liveability - there's a lot of risk and hard work involved.

actually, CR's spelling is usually pretty good, unfortunately i haven't noticed too much wrong with it -- unusual for a realtor :(
sometimes he hits t and g together by mistake, is all...

good advice, bap.

not sure fee structures are the same here. i was looking at buying an old shack on a large block that has already been approved for 2 new subdivided dwellings, and had all sorts of tricks lined up to keep costs down. e.g. occupy dwellings in turn to avoid cap gains tax, and a few other things specific to my situation. don't know if there are large infrastructure fees to pay on a new building tho... trying to become a cottage industry developer by doing 2 and 3 for 1 swaps... i'm only being community-sprited and trying to provide quality housing for others, like casey serin :cry:

Yeah, I agree with Bap33. Someone pointed out earlier (possibly on the prior thread) that they did a lot of rennovations themselves, but when they sold the house, their labor was at like $7/hour. The way I figure it, I could do some consulting or work on some patents and cover the costs of a real professional.

Just read a rebuttal to the Not So Big house. An architect showed that adding all the detail and custom craftsmanship actually costs more than you save by cutting down on square footage. I guess the only way to truly have a cheaper house is to buy something small and basic.

one thing i read claimed it costs twice as much in labour costs to renovate an existing structure as build a new one, per sq ft, mainly due to fiddliness. this was a house rebuilding firm ad, mind you.

a friend of mine (interior designer) was making a good living for a while buying apartments and fixing them up with the sweat of her own brow. but it becomes risky in a turning or declining market -- it was difficult to work out how much of the profit was 'real' and how much was the rising market in the end... plus transaction costs are appreciable, and paying either income tax or capital gains tax on any proceeds after sale...

Another friend has an interesting dilemma: whether to renovate or detonate... Owns a double-brick 'Federation' (1915) house on a small block of land in a desirable beach suburb purchased and paid for years ago. (Living at the beach was seen as undesirable when it was built.) It has 14' ceilings, small windows and tiny rooms and a hallway, a la the Victorian design problem. Kitchen is almost non-existent. A long extensive addition has been built at the back in the 1970s which is of good quality, but doesn't take advantage of beach views well. (Beach views and fresh air were seen as undesirable when it was built.)

Maintenance issues are now enormous: old part of house needs to be rewired, the Welsh slate roof is now getting 'nail cancer' as the original nails rust after 100 years and slate comes slipping down, and the patterned heritage ceilings have been covered up and are also sagging and holing. Apart from restoring the ceilings, she would need to take down all the slate, insulate the ceilings with batts, and sark the roof and renail it. She would like to tear up the carpet to expose the floorboards. Whole interior needs repainting. Ducted heating and a/c are difficult to retrofit. The Federation appearance is reasonably attractive, not necessarily in line with climate or taking full advantage of views. It's the only Fed place left on the street bar one other. She could build a 2nd storey extension out the rear on the existing extension and get sweeping views of beaches and a large master bedroom, ensuite and balcony and all kinds of things, but would cost $$$. Needs to extensively renovate the kitchen/dining space by switching the use of the spaces and replumbing and demolishing a brick walled pantry to do so. May have to lower ceiling in kitchen by 18" as it's too high, and make an attic, or a new storey.

Should she renovate it a bit at a time and continue to live in while doing so, with the option of building a 2nd storey at some time, or just get some architects plans done for a 2 storey neo-modern geometric design with glass etc, which would be self-consistent, brand new (wiring, plumbing, etc), attractive and less ongoing maintenance hassles, but having to move out and rent somewhere for the duration? When you add it up, new construction is probably the same cost as the renovations and repairs that are required. I wonder if you can erect something quickly with cladding products rather than bricklaying double walls. She is not overly attached to the existing structure.

Please help...

Sorry I'm late to the discussion (a good one), but do I tend to take the weekends off. Though I've never built from scratch and my personal "rehabbing" experience is limited mainly to light stuff (painting, caulking & simple plumbing), I can address the build vs. remodel issue for CA, because I heavily researched it 3 years ago.

By late 2003, I quickly realized that I could not afford a livable house in an o.k. neighborhood, either in LA County or the East Bay (the two primary locations for my employer). This was very early along in my bubble-awareness phase, long before I found my way to Patrick.net. I began researching alternatives to purchasing, including DIY straw-bale, cobb & cord wood. Btw, I recommend Mortgage Free! by Rob Roy to anyone interested in pursuing/researching this idea. Back in 2004, I even joined CASBA (CAlifornia Straw Building Association) and attended a few hands-on workshops. I even helped out on a SB house outside San Diego. Very instructive and fun experience.

IMO, this can be a good way to reduce housing costs provided that:

1. You build in an area that has low raw land costs. And don't forget to include the costs of permitting, impact fees, costs of hooking up utilities/sewer/water, etc. --can be VERY high!

2. You do most of the work yourself (see Bap33's comments) and have LOTS of free time and patience. Skills and prior experience with carpentry (or at least family & friends who have it) is also a very good thing.

#2 isn't usually that big of a barrier, provided you're determined and realistic in terms of preparing yourself for a BIG work and time commitment. You can usually pick up new skills OTJ or self educate as needed. Straw-bale is one of the easiest and most forgiving construction materials, btw.

#1 This is often the deal-breaker for a lot of would-be DIYers in places like CA, because most land within commutable areas is so expensive. Remember, this is primarily a LAND BUBBLE, not so much a materials & labor bubble. In fact, the exorbitant cost of land, plus the difficulty of finding any unbuilt land within commuting distance to work was the main deal-breaker for me.

I can vouch for astrid's observation of the hard work involved in restoration - at one remove.

My parents acquired a derelict 1803 federal three-bay in the Shenedoah near Staunton to keep them busy and interested in retirement. Well, it did that in spades but, since the object was to prevent early senility by way of boredom, I must say it was a success. Once locals realised my folks were restoring, not remodelling, the best craftsmanship in the area 'suddenly' became available.

Dad says the expense (~$235K twenty-five years ago) could as easily have resulted in a fine, new home, but then that beautiful old house would very likely have fallen entirely into ruin. I've also seen restorations of large Willis Ervin (1920s neoclassical) and Stanford White estates in Aiken which must have cost dearly, but the original quality of design and finish would be hard to duplicate at any price today - not that we've become stupid in the interim, it's just that few architects today work comfortably in the idiom.

But I'm not considering anything on so grand a scale. Like most of us here, I'd like to own a house, not become enslaved by one. The problem remains that developers have been preoccupied with trends for decades - perhaps always - and that's more or less forcing me to look into new construction.

Shenedoah? Shenandoah. Literacy, anyone?

cabbage's

McHovel! I love it!

The simple beach house my wife and I built years ago in the Philippines was a total "bootstrap" operation. Funded w/tax refunds and c/c it was actually built in stages. She flew home for the big "ground breaking" and the main structure was roofed in about 3 weeks. The first place in the whole barrio w/ indoor flush toilet!

We did for about 12K. The land had been in the family for years so there wasn't any expense there but the major hassle was building it up high enough to prevent flooding during rainy season. They destroyed a "trike" (small motorcycle w/sidecar) hauling enough rock for the foundation.

Well drilling is done w/ a "tripod" of sorts and much manual labor and cheap rum (primary currency). Everybody was well fed and it looked like an old fashioned "barn raising" with plenty of arguing etc. Mrs. DinOr's half blind uncle painted the galvanized sheet metal roofing. They were later repainted.

The concrete ballisters for the front porch look great and the marble ledge is pretty much indestructible. Problems arise though when using coconut wood and it's service life is only about 10 years before weather and insects have their way so that's all had to be re-done. (Facia and interior framing). We've talked about adding a 2nd story basically for breeze way as a roofed in pavillion but we can't seem to agree on how to proceed.

I'm actively looking for raw land in Nye or Esmerelda counties (N and W of Las Vegas to construct my "secret undergound lair". I haven't actually sat down and looked at designs or anything just yet. I figure I'll burn that bridge when I get to it.

Don't get me wrong by any stretch. I'm hardly a survivalist kind of guy. It's just if you spend much of your day being totally wired (dual line headset, two e-mails, multiple quote screens/research AND Bloomberg's/CNBC the idea of being "unplugged" or down-time looks better all the time.

I'm picturing a total purist hacienda style home w/stone courtyard w/one tree in the center. I realize the remote setting, oppressive heat and lack of necessities would turn most people off. Obviously this type of venture would not be done with an eye toward selling down the road at a profit. Done correctly, in time it should well blend in with the surrounding abandoned ruins, as if it had always been there.

SFWoman,

Like a lot of couples that "built" their own place my wifes primary contribution (as far as I can tell) consisted primarily of her shouting herself hoarse imploring "the help" to please stick to the drawings!

The old house (mostly bamboo) had electrical hook-up and we had a nephew that we put through college that was licensed to do the work. The hand pump off of the "dirty kitchen" was a mixed blessing. The youngest sister's (mildly retarded) primary function was to fetch water from the river and had done so since childhood. In time she learned to "embrace" the hand pump and offers to "top off" the neighbors but she misses her daily trips to the river.

There is no shortage of talent in India, but clients want employees who speak languages other than English.

Well, first they have to learn to speak english.

How about buying land and installing a modular home on it (not a manufactured home)? Does that have any advantages time-wise or cost-wise?

Is that even possible in the SF bay area?

Thanks in advance for the insight.

Redrum Realty

As as Indian in the BA, I can assure you Allah that most educated Indians speak decent english. True, they have an accent but who doesn't?

I am not sure what you meant by that comment.

As as Indian in the BA, I can assure you Allah that most educated Indians speak decent english. True, they have an accent but who doesn’t?

I am not sure what you meant by that comment.

I'm not going to start a fight over this, but many Indians and I'm not saying all of them are very difficult to understand. I am not talking about the majority of them that live in America, I'm talking about alot of them overseas that take jobs answering phones for US customers. I don't speak for myself, this is a well known fact.

OK. I agree with you on the hard to understand part. I already conceded that Indians speak english with an, uh, Indian accent.

I am sure english-speaking Indians find Americans hard to understand as well.

BTW, redrum realty was hilarious!

Sriram Gopalan and allah,

I can deal with the accent. My big issue with Indian call centers is that the vast majority of the staffers do not think "American" and this makes communication very difficult. I'd much prefer American call centers, even if they're staffed by technically less competent people. I find Indians to be much more rigid and inflexible.

And I completely blame their employers and the American companies who subcontract for this - training people to think like their customers (or at least comprehend their customers' requests) should be the priority of every call center from day 1.

I found this article about people putting down Westchester, NY schools. I wonder if discontentment with public schools is a national phenomena...

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/13/nyregion/13private.html?hp&ex=1163480400&en=8a92843ed8aa356b&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Or it could just be another case of NYT branded rich people carping about nothing.

Sriram Gopalan,

Peter P has turned me into a fan of Michelle Kaufman Designs. They are modular and very visionary. She was up in Portland for an Architect's convention but I was busy at the time. Excellent finished product.

The problem my wife and I have noticed is that there IS a lot neglected inventory (and as sellers always due) they assume their home is at least as nice as new ones even though the kitchen is from the 70's! So if they price it at 400k and you put 50k into it, you'd be able to sell it for........ 450k! No thanks. Like the imbecile w/the Cupertino "shell house"? He started by saying you just have to "finish it" and slid into basically just selling it as a lot? A 749k lot?

Even many, most, all of the "tear downs" we've seen are priced on the assumption you'll live there and you'll put up w/endless short comings after you figure out tearing it down will be cost prohibitive. Actually I don't believe sellers even think past the part where they roll down the driveway w/big fat stacks!

I agree that most indian call centers are horrible. In fact, that is true for most Indian software outsourcing centers as well.

In fact, one of my main criteria when I switched jobs a few months ago was to find a company that didn't not outsource to India, China or wherever.

So, I do agree with astrid and allah (praise be to him :-)). My only objection was to the statement that Indians don't know english. I have seen day-time TV here; trust me, most Indians speak better english than that.

BTW, anyone have anything to say about modular homes?

I love modular. That's pretty much the only way most people can afford to build modernist home. They're also much better for controlling cost, construction time and quality, compared to stick built homes.

Oh, btw the notion of having a done on a shoestring budget undergound secret lair predates the boom/bubble for me. It's something I've always wanted to do. Building something where people that stumbled upon it would wonder, "how'd they do that?" How did that get here? More importantly, why?

Any putz can borrow a ton of money, go deep in a hole, pay someone else to do ALL the work except where the wife put decorative wallpaper above the splash guard in the kitchen and tell their friends "they" built it! WTF?

How is this an accomplishment? It's just another ugly display of MEW/ill advised 401K liquidation. I've also looked into "yurts" which are made right here in OR and are assembled with a few friends over a weekend. Hey at least YOU put the "kit" together! If it looks like it will be flooded or burn, (take it down). I'm told they're rather comfortable.

HARM - I love the straw bale idea & have that same book. I know a couple folks who have tried to build them and were thwarted at every turn by (1) local code restrictions and (2) lack of skilled labor & contractors willing to work with them. Then there was the problem of land - they work in a city and most of the land they had available was already owned by developers who wanted to build their own McHovel. As a result they were forced to look far outside the city & defeated their purpose. They currently live in a Midwestern shoe box ranch ‘cause that’s all they can afford.

You’ve gone to the seminars, and Cali is more rigid from a permitting & code perspective than fly over - can you comment? Do you have any interesting ‘lessons learned’? TIA.

I pretty much agree with all your comments --especially the part about lack of build-able land in and near big cities. That one was the real deal-breaker for me. My work requires me to be stationed either near downtown L.A. or downtown Oakland, and I just didn't relish the idea of a 90-minute+ commute (each way) to an area with less expensive build-able lots.

#1 (local code restrictions) can be overcome by selecting a city/county where SB/alternative construction is already established and welcomed. A good example would be Contra Costa County. They are one of the friendliest towards SB & green construction. Unfortunately, mostly due to their draconian UBL restrictions, they are also one of the most expensive places to build, due to lack of available lots. Sort of a best & worst of both worlds situation. If the city/county officials where you want to build are unfamiliar with SB, you will probably have to educate them. The local chapter of CASBA (or a sister organization for other states) can really help you out here.

#2 (lack of skilled labor & contractors). This is no longer the impediment it once was, thanks to about 15 years of more or less steady progress in SB construction. 15 years ago, if you said you wanted to build a SB house, most contractors would probably just look at you funny. Now, even if they're not experienced themselves, they probably at least know someone who is. Again, the local chapter of CASBA will be an invaluable resource in locating skilled people.