patrick.net

Oh, btw the notion of having a done on a shoestring budget undergound secret lair predates the boom/bubble for me. It's something I've always wanted to do. Building something where people that stumbled upon it would wonder, "how'd they do that?" How did that get here? More importantly, why?

Any putz can borrow a ton of money, go deep in a hole, pay someone else to do ALL the work except where the wife put decorative wallpaper above the splash guard in the kitchen and tell their friends "they" built it! WTF?

How is this an accomplishment? It's just another ugly display of MEW/ill advised 401K liquidation. I've also looked into "yurts" which are made right here in OR and are assembled with a few friends over a weekend. Hey at least YOU put the "kit" together! If it looks like it will be flooded or burn, (take it down). I'm told they're rather comfortable.

HARM - I love the straw bale idea & have that same book. I know a couple folks who have tried to build them and were thwarted at every turn by (1) local code restrictions and (2) lack of skilled labor & contractors willing to work with them. Then there was the problem of land - they work in a city and most of the land they had available was already owned by developers who wanted to build their own McHovel. As a result they were forced to look far outside the city & defeated their purpose. They currently live in a Midwestern shoe box ranch ‘cause that’s all they can afford.

You’ve gone to the seminars, and Cali is more rigid from a permitting & code perspective than fly over - can you comment? Do you have any interesting ‘lessons learned’? TIA.

I pretty much agree with all your comments --especially the part about lack of build-able land in and near big cities. That one was the real deal-breaker for me. My work requires me to be stationed either near downtown L.A. or downtown Oakland, and I just didn't relish the idea of a 90-minute+ commute (each way) to an area with less expensive build-able lots.

#1 (local code restrictions) can be overcome by selecting a city/county where SB/alternative construction is already established and welcomed. A good example would be Contra Costa County. They are one of the friendliest towards SB & green construction. Unfortunately, mostly due to their draconian UBL restrictions, they are also one of the most expensive places to build, due to lack of available lots. Sort of a best & worst of both worlds situation. If the city/county officials where you want to build are unfamiliar with SB, you will probably have to educate them. The local chapter of CASBA (or a sister organization for other states) can really help you out here.

#2 (lack of skilled labor & contractors). This is no longer the impediment it once was, thanks to about 15 years of more or less steady progress in SB construction. 15 years ago, if you said you wanted to build a SB house, most contractors would probably just look at you funny. Now, even if they're not experienced themselves, they probably at least know someone who is. Again, the local chapter of CASBA will be an invaluable resource in locating skilled people.

alien,

Thanks for the feedback. That's what I love about this blog. Many topics that would simply be ignored or met w/scorn are at least entertained here!

I lived for sometime in the Philippines. Electricity can be a fleeting thing. One night (before a huge command inspection) I had to lay my uniform out and iron it 2-3 minutes at a time when the power came on and then shut down as demand came back on line. You learn not to count on it.

Since our daughters will NEVER leave OR the undergound lair would be something to break up the doldrums of our decidedly bleak winters. I love Las Vegas (and that's the problem). The big issue I see is making such a simple place "squatter/vandal proof" w/o making it a fortress, and of course the expense of a fortress!

alien,

Ditto on demand. Even here (our full time residence) seldom do we break $90 power bills. All too often I see people decide they need more room. So they put on an addition. Well, there's NFW they're going to the expense of an addition and NOT put power in it. So in go the outlets and lighting fixtures! More outlets and nothing to go in them? No way. Now we have to run out and buy things to plug into these outlets to justify the expense.

After each outlet is taxed to the max we'll need to put in more outlets and on and on it goes! Insane. Why do we need an electrical clock in a sitting/drawing room where the people use it maybe once every other week at best?

Oh, and where is ConfusedRealtor? Surely s/he would like to mock us impoverished peasants for entertaining the notion of building our pathetic mud huts in the shadow of his/her opulent manse. Far too primitive for the likes of CR, who I'm sure would not deign to get his/her manicured hands dirty.

alien,

That was *astrid's suggestion sometime back as well. Stealth over strength. It's such an intimidating climate anyway I doubt the folks that venture that far off the beaten path are there to vandalize etc.

The "Big Island" in HI has become something of leader in water catchment technology. It's one of the rainiest places on the planet so using your roof, gutters, filters and barrels makes sense! Since it's basically a gravity feed system little if any power is needed.

Now in Nye or Esmerelda county? I can see it to take advantage of sudden rains and set up a time release to water your trees/plants to aid in dust control when you can't be there! We had a Dr. in N. Portland use it for laundry, bathing etc. and the city accused him of tampering w/his water meter! True story. When the city tested it, his water was a better quality than the theirs!

I’m picturing a total purist hacienda style home w/stone courtyard w/one tree in the center... Done correctly, in time it should well blend in with the surrounding abandoned ruins, as if it had always been there.

Since our daughters will NEVER leave OR the undergound lair would be something to break up the doldrums of our decidedly bleak winters.

:lol: DinOR, are you seriously considering building a (partly) underground lair? Aside from being very Austin Powers villain-chic, it would have the added benefit of being 15-20 degrees cooler than above-ground dwellings. And I'll bet the girls would love it --living in a (well appointed) cave!

HARM,

Like I say, still very much in a fledgling state but the basic idea was to have an above ground "pavillion" w/outdoor kitchen (no not like the ones you see on HGTV!) more like at a state park etc. There really wouldn't be anything of value to steal, break etc. and I would set up the "facilities" like a rest stop restroom.

Below ground level, modest accomodations for 4-6 people. If on a sloped lot it could actually be part of the same structure w/half being earth covered. Let's just say I have my research cut out for me.

alien,

That's pretty interesting. I'd once read that many of the "spaghetti westerns" were actually filmed in western Spain and Portugal b/c of it's tremendous likeness to the American SW!

Water catchment tech. got my attention b/c we lived off a shared well for 10 years and by Aug/Sept there were times when you couldn't flush, wash clothes, shower and do dishes at the same time! Yeah, in a place that rains 9 months out of the year!

When I first began researching I learned that in the 1800's having a cistern in the attic was a common practice for homes nice enough to have an upstairs bathroom. (Think pull chain above the commode). So there's really nothing new about it.

DinOR,

Not a bad idea, really. Rob Roy's book has a chapter on underground dwellings as I recall. If you're going to semi-camouflage the house, why not go all the way and create a post-Apocalyptic shell above ground with a concealed hatch/elevator shaft that provides access to the 'real' Casa del DinOR? A few partly demolished cinder block walls festooned with fire-blackened skeletons should keep the "raiders" at bay.

Call it 'Road Warrior chic'? ;-)

dryfly,

Our "P.I" beach house was built before the "California Kitsch" caught on in the islands. It's really just 1,200 sq. ft. or so one level concrete block laid on a poured slab foundation. Stucco applied and wuh-lah. It was started in the late 80's before digital cameras but we did manage to get a few pictures (mostly of the "crew" having beers though).

I really do miss the old bamboo house though. It's where my wife was born and had a lot of great memories. It was built by her grandfather but needed constant maint! Also, they can be a fire hazard when power goes out and people light lamps/candles. They didn't have power until the late 70's.

HARM,

LOL! Great idea! No seriously, before the "meth madness" none of these would be issues. We've also considered getting some old dude to be a "house sitter" and live there for free as long as he keeps it up. It's actually a pretty common practice in central/eastern OR.

You know, I'm not totally sure I could pull this "remote living" thing off either? I suppose the easy thing to do would be to throw in the towel, concede the whole thing was silly and unworkable and line up in tidy little rows w/the rest, complete w/smooching major hiney at HOA meetings?

NFW! I had tinkered w/the idea of going to Baja, I've always kind of dug it but continue to hear horror stories etc. Look, if you get the land for a few grand and can pay for the concrete etc. out of pocket what do you really have to lose?

Anyone know the proper dimensions for a MG-42 bunker?

DiNOR,

Sounds like you need one of these:
http://www.missilebases.com/
I noticed a lot of "price reduced" signs on their web page, so, evidently, the real estate crunch is also hitting the underground fortress market.

Paul,
I’m guessing cost of construction in the 300k range. If you build a 3 unit building, rent 2 units at $1,800 each and live in the third I think the numbers above would work.
If you do go this route, build them as condos. This, in my mind, is one of the better retirement plans you can conjur up. When you are ready to cash out, serially move through the units in two year intervals and claim your $500k tax free profits (assuming prices have gone up when you hit retirement). As FAB pointed out, its always better to sell your primary residence.

SP,

Now that's what I'm talking about! A few years back Pacific Yurts had one set up at the state fair and it was really cool. I think their most expensive model is like 12K? You can add a clear vented dome for a few extra bucks and they said the whole exterior can be replaced for a fraction of the cost.

Yeah, I once saw a missle silo for sale on e-bay but it was in "East Jeebus" WA. For obvious reasons they were seldom positioned near population centers? What I had thought (at least for the first few years) is that the "subterranean" portion would be limited to storing propane, generator etc? Think what a different place Las Vegas and Phoenix would be if all we saw above ground amounted to a "pool house" w/ a misting system vice and entire area that would be uninhabitable were it not for a/c?

I swear as a kid growing up in Chicago all of the huge commercial a/c units actually made it hotter outside. I've heard of it described as an "urban island" or something like that. One thing for sure, the McHovel isn't the answer.

dryfly,

To be honest the "P.I" provides about all the international intrigue I can handle. Yeah, I've greased my share of palms there. I was looking more for something that was a little warmer and yet within driving distance from OR on long weekends etc. There are many years here where the day after Labor Day it's starts to rain yet much of the country is enjoying a great "indian summer". Bend is saturated w/wannabe RE moguls so that's out.

I've also considered the Black Rock Desert and probably wouldn't be there when the "freak-a-thon" called Burning Man was going on anyway.

@dryfly,

Here's one tip I forgot to mention re: DIY/building from scratch. If you're planning on buying in a rural area, this pretty much means a septic system. Make sure you get a "perc" test on the soil before buying. Especially important if you plan on drilling a well. A full geological report is well worth the money, I'm told.

dryfly,

Uh, good questions. We did a thread a little while back about "What lengths does one have to go to escape the boom's grasp" and it was decided Pitcairn Island and parts of Tasmania were still affordable.

Ben Jones did a great piece on how "2nd/vacation homes" really were just another excuse to speculate! Many of the homes that are vacant most of the year in OR become heavens for "cookers". Lovely, isn't it?

Oh, and in really rural areas, you need to be sure there's even access to the property. This means, if there's no existing road that reaches your property, you will have to go the the assessor's and verify you will have the right-of-way to build one (in the sticks, this problem is more common than you might think). Sometimes, your neighbor must explicitly grant you permission to build an access road over their property or you're outta luck. Not to mention road-building can be very expensive.

HARM,

True. We had a septic system for 10 years. They are not maint. free. When we sold I told the buyer to think about it over the next five years. Our ground is very hard/rocky and didn't "leach" well.

@DinOR,

I've heard that bargains can still be had in Elbonia. Plus, there's plenty of free mud for building cobb or SB houses. :-)

HARM,

Sounds wonderful. Do they have timeshares there?

What some of us may find frustrating is b/c of the "ripple" like effect of the rolling bubble some of these areas are just now getting their moment in the sun. As is true of sellers in more established markets, they're reluctant to give up their 15 minutes.

What you note is true, much of what we might find on ebay etc. is likely just being sold from one poor guy to the next when it's revealed that the parcel is "land locked". Just a guess.

Just a thought.

The real idea of having a "retirement home" is to have a home that's paid off right? Well if it's done on the cheap and doubles as a true vacation home (meaning no/low payment) isn't that what most prudent people wind up with in the end anyway?

With unprecedented appreciation why would anyone bother with all of this? I mean, buy a house nothing down, wait a year or two, tap MEW and start building McHovel at Lake Woebegone right? That will be RE perma bulls argument right? Well now that's been blown right out of the water I don't believe we're the only ones that will be revisiting the time tested strategy of only biting off as much as you can chew.

Ate at Nopa in the city last week. All food we had was excellent except for the deserts which were very good. Reasonably priced, I’d highly recommend.

Thanks SFW, I will try it out.

RE: bathrooms

They should build master baths with double water closets. However, it still seems that people put more emphasis on kitchens than on baths. :(

DinOR,

For my own parents' retirement, I'm trying to push them towards minimal property ownership. For the first 10 to 15 years of their retirement, it really makes much more sense to rent vacation homes than to buy one in any one place. That way, they're not locked to one area. Then, once the market goes down sufficiently, we can start looking for bargains.

But until then, nothing wrong with renting nice places for 50% the cost of buying and zero hassle.

Peter P,

I think the average American kitchen are very badly designed. Cluttered and high cabinets (Hello danger!), inch wide gaps for water and dirt to settle into, weak exhaust fans. I don't care how much the Subzero fridge costs - if they don't have an exhaust fan that vents out, the kitchen is basically worthless.

Home kitchens should be smaller versions of commercial kitchens...not pretty, but functional, sanitary and safe.

My wife and bought a piece of land on Daisy Meadows out in Canyon Country. It was a good size hilltop lot (just over two acres) but due to the slope on the hillside very little of the land is actually usable. There is a good sized plateau at the top which provides a very nice 180 degree view to the east south and west. It seemed a perfect place for a house. A lower plateau to the west of this would have made a nice usable yard. It seemed perfect so we bought it.

The first thing needed was an accurate survey. It turned out that the sloped sides of the lot were to steep and overgrown to survey in the traditional fasion so an aerial survey was needed($7000,00). This involves flying an aircraft over the site and taking a series of photograghs that are then combined by a computer into one three dimensional image. From this data a very detailed contour map was then created. Survey in hand our architect went down to the the city planners office to look into permits and building requirements and thats were things began to fall apart.

It turns out that ten years earlier the city had carted away a large portion of the hillside that had cut Daisy Meadows in half. This allowed them to replace the two culdesacs on either side of the hill with a connecting road. The problem is that the new connecting road that they built was only forty feet wide and had no curbs or sidewalks. The older roads at either end were sixty feet wide with sidewalks and curbs. It turns out that before they would grant me a permit to do anything I was expected to widen the road to sixty feet and put in the curbs and sidewalks on both sides of the street. About four hundred feet worth if I remember correctly.

Then there is the $15,000.00 per acre "bridges and thoroughfares" fee. It does'nt seem to matter to the city that only 1/4 of an acre was actually usable land. Add to this fees assessed for the fire department, the police department and the school system and the cost became prohibitive. Had I tried to complete the project with a modest house the architect figured the cost would approach one million dollars and possibly more.

We threw in the towel and sold the place about a year later for $5,000 more than we had invested in it. It's currently for sale again for well over twice what we sold it for.

@David J,

Thanks for sharing your story with us --and what a nightmare! Talk about your gratuitous, extortionate "just because" fees and red tape. Un-freakin'-believable... I'm surprised the city government hasn't tried charging an "oxygen use fee" per resident (plus a supplemental fee for visitors).

I think California leads the nation in anti-development fees, not to mention an extremely lopsided tax burden, thanks to Prop. 13. The NAHB came out with an estimate last year that showed average fees per new house topped $120K in some CA municipalities.

So much for trying to play the homebuilder "incentives" game to your advantage. It appears that incentives --as well as prices-- have also been rigged against you, Mr. Retail Buyer:

Feds Investigating Home Builder Mortgage Programs for Consumer Abuses
by Kenneth R. Harney

...Under the federal Real Estate Settlement Procedures Act (RESPA), builders and realty brokers are prohibited from requiring customers to use their own affiliates or subsidiaries for mortgage, title or other settlement-related services. They can recommend affiliates -- provided they also disclose the relationship -- but they cannot force consumers to use them.

Enforcement officials at HUD, which has regulatory oversight of RESPA, have begun looking into widespread allegations that some builders:

--Increase the prices of homes when purchasers decline to use their affiliated mortgage companies.

--Present $10,000 to $30,000 "incentives" -- upgrades to kitchens, "free" finished basements or "free" settlement costs -- as true discounts, when in fact the incentives are built into the cost of the house.

Require the use of an affiliated lender in order to qualify for incentives when they know their affiliates' mortgage programs carry intentionally inflated fees or interest rates to cover the incentives in whole or part.

Refuse to go to settlement when buyers change their minds and decline to use the builder's affiliated or wholly-owned mortgage company. In one case, a builder declared an $11,845 good faith deposit forfeited when the customer switched to an independent, nonaffiliated lender.

http://www.dqnews.com/ZIPSJMN.shtm
SANTA CLARA through 10/20/2006
Total resale houses $749,000 7.0%
Mountain View 94040 $809,000
Mountain View 94041 $812,500
Mountain View 94043 $735,000

Drop damnit! Drop already! What the hell?

ConfusedRealtwhore/Marinara Prime,

This thread is all about building houses with alternative/green materials, such as cobb, which usually contains manure. Since you're such an expert on bullshit, I was hoping you'd be able to contribute something to the discussion.

Cheers.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm pretty much fed up with CR McFuckKnob and his repetitive, childish flame-baiting. As he contributes nothing useful to the discussion, I'm banning his ass (again).

Feel free to go right ahead and flame me if you don't agree with my decision.

Feel free to go right ahead and flame me if you don’t agree with my decision.

On the one hand, it is sadistically enjoyable to verbally pummel this toolbag called ConfusedRealtor once in a while. On the other hand, I worry that lurkers and other regular readers find his flame-baiting and trolling distracting from the discussion.

It's clear he is getting more and more desparate, resorting to personal attacks - SP, astrid, SFWoman, to mention a few. He must be very stressed about not having any RE commissions of late.

We went through a whole thread on this earlier, but I remain ambivalent about banning him.

As the threadmaster, I'll go ahead and ban CR on this thread.

skibum,

What bothers me is that CR is making personal attacks and baiting people into engaging him. Then he or she ignores the responses actually elicited. It's pretty much textbook trolling, and offensive textbook trolling at that.

SFWoman,

I'm very sorry. Maybe you can ask Peter P to disagree with you? :)

You bring up an excellent point, much of the American high deserts is prone to flash flooding. DinOR, DO NOT build your dream home in a slot canyon. You'll be very sorry if you do.

astrid/SFWoman,

Thanks for the heads up. Like I say, still very much in the fledgling state. One of the things I may have neglected to mention is that the "retired crowd" in say the Philippines is basically nocturnal. They drink, party, raise hell, shoot pool and settle their bets by the light of the moon.

By the time sunrise rolls around they're having their nightcap and sleep (pass out) during the heat of the day. I can't imagine hanging out in the Amargosa Desert would be too different.

HARM,

I felt the real news in your Realty Times link was the fact that HUD was actually recognizing the abuses and DOING something about it! We've been aware that the "incentives" have more stick than carrot so just hearing this kind coverage is a positive!

Given the current state of ethical affairs at NAR was there any doubt the incentive driven sales model would be short lived? I mean what is this? Double or nothing?

DinOR,

I'm looking forward to TV "analysts" comparing home builders to the Big Three auto manufacturers. That would be pretty sweet and very fitting. McSuburbanAssaultVehicle, meet McCrappyOverpricedHovel.