patrick.net

Onvacation says

"it’s a colossal pump-and-dump scheme, the likes of which the world has never seen. In a pump-and-dump game, promoters “pump” up the price of a security creating a speculative frenzy, then “dump” some of their holdings at artificially high prices."

Do you disagree with Vox? What did they get wrong?

Great question and yes I disagree 100%. They got all of it wrong. You see @Onvacation the guy who wrote that article in Vox is a slimy weasel who fooled you. It's simply a hit piece from a moron with a conflict of interest. He doesn't believe any of that which I will demonstrate below. Also bitcorn is property not a security only the alt-coins are securities.

First Bill is a former CEO of Paypal but he only lasted one month because he's a moron, who was messing things up and was asked to leave. Paypal states that it's great he's gone:

https://www.globalnonviolence.org/paid-for-the-language-paypal-ceo-who-called-bitcoin-biggest-scam-in-history-lasted-a-month-in-office/?source=patrick.net
Controversial co-founder of PayPal Bill Harris defined Bitcoin as a „coup“ in 2018, but his departure was decisive for the company to accept cryptomoedas.

You see Paypal knows what's up. They either get into crypto or they die. (Personally I hope they die) They're even making their own crypto. Even the credit card companies are getting into it because they too, don't want to die. I suspect they probably will, they are too late. Bitcoin (not to mention ETH which has done more) is already clearing more transactions than VISA:

https://www.benzinga.com/markets/cryptocurrency/22/01/25251600/bitcoin-annual-settlement-volume-exceeded-that-of-visa-last-year-at-1-3b?source=patrick.net

ol' @richwicks on here was rambling on about how this is impossible because he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Back to Bill though - your guy who inspired you to start this thread. Bill is a lying MF. You know what Bill has been up to? Well, he dubiously moved to what is basically Silicon Valley but for crypto in Florida and plans to start a 'global digital bank':

https://www.thenextmiami.com/nirvana-technology-will-hire-200-tech-employees-in-wynwood-with-plans-to-build-a-global-digital-bank/?source=patrick.net

Now you might say to yourself, "Hey, we have those already. Internet banks that do transactions with 1011010001010". You'd be right. One of my favorites is this one:

https://redneck.bank/?source=patrick.net

I Iike to chase the fly around with my mouse.

But this is different. You see, Bill is an anti-American snake (and you thought you were saving people from demoncrats and middle eastern rapists) who appears to want to screw us all.

Fortunately, it's been a while and Bill hasn't seemed to be able to hire many people yet. Here is his company:

https://nirvana.tech/?source=patrick.net

They've got like 10 people so far. Why can't he hire people there? My guess is that there are too many way better projects and the developers have some principles. The person with a discriminating eye may notice at least 2 of them are former Ripple developers.

Oh well that's interesting isn't it. XRP is a crypto. It's not any I'd buy now because it's a fiat crypto that Christine Lagarde wants to use at the IMF to get rid of the dollar (for the most part) and create a global crypto currency that the IMF controls. That's like an order of magnitude worse than our own central bank CBDC I asked you about that you never answered:

https://fee.org/articles/imf-head-predicts-the-end-of-banking-and-the-triumph-of-cryptocurrency/?source=patrick.net

So it looks like your buddy Bill has a conflict of interest and is trying to start a global 'digital' (really XRP) bank despite his BS claims - but I can't prove that yet because they're somewhat quiet but the writing is on the wall. If so it gets even funnier. All that crap he talks about related to securities dumps you quoted. Well, the US SEC shut down XRP because to them it looks like they may have been doing that:

https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2020-338?source=patrick.net
Press Release
SEC Charges Ripple and Two Executives with Conducting $1.3 Billion Unregistered Securities Offering

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

(Not laughing at you @OnVacation, I'd rather laugh with you everyone makes mistakes)

Could Bill Harris be any more of a cuck sucker than he already is? LOL

If you think you'll be sucking air for another 20 years or so I recommend you get one of them thar crypto flash drives, open an account and buy $10 worth of Satoshis. Just so you know how to do it if the time comes and you want to move quickly.

Start following the news about this a bit better. It's pretty much daily I'm reading stuff like this for 1.5 years:

https://www.benzinga.com/markets/cryptocurrency/22/01/25295734/bill-to-make-bitcoin-legal-tender-in-arizona-introduced-what-you-need-to-know?source=patrick.net

Like our asshoe governor said when he was mayor of SF and allowing gay marriage despite the referendum banning it:

"This is going to happen!"

FJB says

I disagree 100%.

SO, how do you make money investing in crypto without finding a greater fool to pay more than you did?

Still waiting for a cogent answer, but not expecting one. Bitcoin is a scam.

You should really nuke this thread and start a Crypto Information thread instead. Both the good and bad. Patnet started out about the housing market.

Onvacation says

SO, how do you make money investing in crypto without finding a greater fool to pay more than you did?

I've rejected the premise.

Onvacation says

Bitcoin is a scam.

Bill? Is that you?

FJB says

You should really nuke this thread and start a Crypto Information thread instead

Go ahead. This is the crypto currency is a scam thread.

FJB says

Onvacation says

SO, how do you make money investing in crypto without finding a greater fool to pay more than you did?

I've rejected the premise.

If you don't know who the fool is, it might be you.

Onvacation says

If you don't know who the fool is, it might be you.

Fools are people who are unable to make probabilistic models of the future and prepare for them appropriately Bill.

Onvacation says

Go ahead. This is the crypto currency is a scam thread.

Nah, too lazy. Besides you've already taken the torch.

FJB says

Onvacation says

Go ahead. This is the crypto currency is a scam thread.

Nah, too lazy. Besides you've already taken the torch.

OK. Go ahead. Tell us why bitcoin is not a scam requiring a bigger fool to buy your coin in order to make a profit?

Bitcoin is a great way to get ahead financially. I bought it for 15k a while back and it more then doubled. These other coins I have did even better.

Just dollar cost average some of your funds in crypto and HODL for years. Try to avoid the noise and don't care about the swings. If you are up considerably, sell some. Nothing wrong with taking profits. Just don't get too greedy.

> Bitcoin, FJB

Full disclosure: I just started learning about cryptocurrencies, but quite aggressively. I made it a priority.

Having said that. Cost of transaction for bitcoin is non-trivial, but the chart doesn't show it at all. In fact, it implies the opposite: "Easily transactible: High". Indeed, you can counter that "easy" and "cheap" are not the same, in which case I'd point out that cost of transaction is simply missing from the chart and that the wording is misleading.

I understand that this makes small transactions non-reversible in practical terms.

mostly reader says

Full disclosure: I just started learning about cryptocurrencies, but quite aggressively. I made it a priority.

Having said that. Cost of transaction for bitcoin is non-trivial, but the chart doesn't show it at all.

Checkout the lightning network. The whole industry is just getting started but it's already exploded into many entities working on many different projects. Way to many for me to keep up with.

Right now it's too much of a pain in the butt for most people to use. Later you won't even notice. For instance, you and I don't care about each other's ISP only that our messages reach each other.

Also, bitcoin is significantly different than most other cryptocurrencies. The energy required is what protects it. The others may be quicker and cheaper but less secure among other things. Different niche. Bitcoin is more like gold. I believe it now does smart contracts natively recently though.

Onvacation says

OK. Go ahead. Tell us why bitcoin is not a scam requiring a bigger fool to buy your coin in order to make a profit?

Reject the premise again.

It's a network with software apps that provide value.

The hypothesis you keep repeating suggests it'll eventually crash to zero because it has no value. It has value because humans decided it has value. Like $, your matchbox car, gold, oil, bullets, cigs, tulips.

Since you're being hypothetical we might say your matchbox car is scam that will go to zero because over the next decade old white guys with matchbox cars might get their heads chopped off. Or we might discover gold causes ovarian and testicular cancer. Even a commodity like oil went negative within the past 2 years.

Why haven't you answered a single one of my questions Bill?

FJB says

Bitcoin is more like gold

I reject your premise. Gold only has to be mined once, a store of value, while Bitcoin has to be "mined" over and over or it disappears. Gold is an element. Bitcoin is a scam.

FJB says

we might discover gold causes ovarian and testicular cancer

LOL!
Really?

FJB says

Why haven't you answered a single one of my questions Bill?

I'm not bill.

None of the guys who like Bitcoin bought it for $65,000, but some did and they are biting their fingernails waiting for other guys to bid it back up.

FJB says

Also, bitcoin is significantly different than most other cryptocurrencies. The energy required is what protects it. The others may be quicker and cheaper but less secure among other things. Different niche. Bitcoin is more like gold. I believe it now does smart contracts natively recently though.

Right, "the energy required is what protects it." There's a flip side to that: small transactions are irreversible. If you used bitcoin to buy something for an equivalent of $10, and not satisfied, it's cheaper to just forget about it than to get a refund. Then, there may be another network which makes transactions easier but at the cost of security.

I understand that this is a built-in feature which comes with it's own benefits, but a fare comparison chart should at least mention it.

mostly reader says

but a fare comparison chart should at least mention it.

Yeah, agree with everything you said. I'm just not sure what this comparison chart is you're referring to.

Onvacation says

I'm not bill.

Come on Bill. It all makes sense. The affinity for Florida, the sail boat, the pirate picture...

Onvacation says

Gold only has to be nined once

To keep gold requires a lot of energy. Storage, transport among others. The no energy after mining argument is a cannard.

Onvacation says

Gold is an element.

People literally get rich on vibrating air molecules. Music royalties. They don't own the air molecules themselves, just the vibrations.

FJB says

mostly reader says

but a fare comparison chart should at least mention it.

Yeah, agree with everything you said. I'm just not sure what this comparison chart is you're referring to.

There was a chart few posts above mine, the type which compares crypto against other financial instruments (fiat/gold/etc.) and crypto comes out ahead in all metrics. I don't see it any longer.

Why You Should Put All of Your Money in Bitcoin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-zIbVEjVpQ&source=patrick.net

mostly reader says

There was a chart few posts above mine, the type which compares crypto against other financial instruments (fiat/gold/etc.) and crypto comes out ahead in all metrics. I don't see it any longer.

Oh, yeah, I recall seeing those but I didn't look at them closely / didn't post them. I like the others too. I don't understand why there is a debate amongst sound money people.

clambo says

None of the guys who like Bitcoin bought it for $65,000, but some did and they are biting their fingernails waiting for other guys to bid it back up.

Clambo in 2019: Someone bought the Bitcoin top at 20k!
Clambo in 2022: Someone bought the Bitcoin top at 65K!
Clambo in 2024: Someone bought the Bitcoin top at 150k!

There will always be the-glass-is-half-empty type of guys.... trying to shit on your investment is what they do in their free time.
Bitcoin has been the best performing asset over the last 10years.

FJB says

To keep gold requires a lot of energy

Not if you put it in a chest, bury it and make a map. Or you can make it into jewelry. When you hold Bitcoin it is a flash drive worth only what you can get a rube to pay for it AND it requires an unsustainable amount of energy to maintain.

FJB says

Onvacation says

Gold is an element.

People literally get rich on vibrating air molecules. Music royalties. They don't own the air molecules themselves, just the vibrations.

Are you equating gold to air? Really?

mostly reader says

to.

There was a chart few posts above mine, the type which compares crypto against other financial instruments (fiat/gold/etc.) and crypto comes out ahead in all metrics. I don't see it any longer.

Take your flash drive and a gold coin to a pawn shop and see which one they want to buy.

FJB says

I don't understand why there is a debate amongst sound money people.

Definition of sound money

: money not liable to sudden appreciation or depreciation in value : stable money specifically : a currency based on or redeemable in gold — compare paper money.

Bitcoin is neither sound nor stable.

Onvacation says

FJB says

To keep gold requires a lot of energy

Not if you put it in a chest, bury it and make a map

That's correct FJB. Its much more cost effective, safer and easier to store Bitcoin than it is to store gold.
No need to buy a chest and bury it in the ground. No need for a map either.
With Crypto you simply store your wealth on a cold storage/hardware wallet. Keep your private keys at a different place.

A hundred years ago burring your wealth in the ground was maybe a thing but this is 2022.
....Bill still uses a landline and overpays for matchbox cars :)

Ha ha so the guy who bought Bitcoin in 2021 for $65,000 and is $30,000 underwater in 2022 is gonna have $150,000 in 2024?

That’s a neat trick.

Gold bugs can easily trade GLDM but lose the expense ratio 0.18%.

clambo says

Ha ha so the guy who bought Bitcoin in 2021 for $65,000 and is $30,000 underwater in 2022 is gonna have $150,000 in 2024?

That’s a neat trick.

no tricks here. Bitcoin started ten years ago with less than $1. That's what happens if you have limited supply of Bitcoin. You cant print more.
People like you thought 20K was the forever top and Bitcoin will never reach 20k again. If I would have told you Bitcoin will be trading for 38k on 2/1/2022 you would have laughed and declared me crazy. $150k seems unbelievable to you in 2022. Lets talk in 5 years from now :)

Actually I never thought about Bitcoin until my friend bragged about her nephew having it recently.

Onvacation says

Not if you put it in a chest, bury it and make a map. Or you can make it into jewelry. When you hold Bitcoin it is a flash drive worth only what you can get a rube to pay for it AND it requires an unsustainable amount of energy to maintain.

If you bury it you cannot use it. Burying it and making a map is not secure either. I don't recommend it but you could make jewelry out of bitcorn wallets. It does not use that much energy relatively speaking. That's just FUD someone convinced you is true. Gold mining alone uses more energy so do coffee machines. If you shut down the legacy banking system it's a huge net plus in energy savings, it's not even close.

Onvacation says

Are you equating gold to air? Really?

You're damn right I am but I'm not making a comparison of equivalence, quite the contrary I'm showing you that people have decided vibrating air has value and in some cases A LOT of value.

Onvacation says

Take your flash drive and a gold coin to a pawn shop and see which one they want to buy.

I don't hang out in dirty pawn shops.

Onvacation says

Definition of sound money

: money not liable to sudden appreciation or depreciation in value : stable money specifically : a currency based on or redeemable in gold — compare paper money.

We all saw the dictionary companies change the definition of many things over the past 2 years. 'Vaccines' etc... The person who coined the phrase was Aristotle as far as I know unless someone before him did. Here is a gold bug blurb about it:

https://www.bullionvault.com/gold-news/money_aristotle_050120092?source=patrick.net

Notice there isn't anything in there about gold or volatility?

On that note I DO agree with you and the dict, sound money shouldn't be volatile. I did not say bitcorn was sound money. I suggested I'm a sound money proponent and that's the upside to bitcorn: It's volatility is generally positive (good!) and at some point it'll flatten out and become sound. I'm guessing that'll be true when there are a few billion people using it.

I think the days of insane overnight gazillionaires are over and there is much less upside but I think a 10x is given and likely much much more. I'll be happy if it beats the USD inflation plus some sort of decent premium over the long term. I expect I'll be happily surprised.

Onvacation says

I'd (for now) put asterisks next to bitcorn being 'durable' and 'secure' simply because it hasn't existed for very long. Many people make the mistake that bitcorn has been hacked which isn't true. Those were essentially bank robberies or the feds scrapping aws ec2 instances because morons left their bitcorn up there.

I do believe it's durable and secure though - we shall see.