patrick.net

I was an exchange student in Germany and tankless heaters were the norm there.

The Germans are definitely into efficiency, and I also liked that you don't waste water waiting for it to get hot.

An interesting spin on a "tankless water heater" - if you goto a poor neighborhood in the tropics, you'll see many do without a water heater. Instead, they use a 110v plug in water heater that just screws in behind your showerhead. The water goes in and gets heated as it passes through internal heating coils. Granted, they dont work too well, as 110v * 15A just cant put out enough energy to raise the water temp too much. They usually get used in combo with a water saver shower head; not to save water, but by restricting the water flow rate, the water temp can be raised a few more degrees.

It's a little unsettling though to have a power cord going into your shower, especially knowing that its basically a hairdryer with water going through it. But theyre dirt cheap, and work well enough. A big part of this though is that the tropics have fairly warm tap water, so the heater doesnt need to elevate the temp too much.

I looked into it a decade ago. I was warned that if I were getting permits then the gas line all the way back to the meter would have to be leak tested, which would probably fail (given that it's iron and 50+ years old). In my case that would entail a tricky re-routing since the original pipe went under the concrete garage floor (before it was poured). I also didn't want to convert to gas cooktop, since I love induction for that application. Even here in crazy California, my monthly gas bill is as low as $10 in the summer, so that pilot light isn't costing me all that much.

Eric Holder says

Reading you it feels like you're bleeding THOUSANDS per day... And I thought I was cheap, LOL.

Pity us poor Californians. Our biggest monthly expense is the water bill....

Ok - hijacking the thread somewhat: Has anyone put in a water heater recirculation pump? Did ya save money?

I'm opting for the model without the recirculation pump. Hoping I don't regret it. Will be located below the master bedroom and don't want to hear it going off at all hours. Less parts to break, and then you don't require a thermal expansion tank. That said, our place is two stories and a relatively small footprint (though the kitchen will be the longest reach...) May put a bucket in the shower to catch the initial cold cold run in the pipes and use for flushing.

Hircus says

An interesting spin on a "tankless water heater" - if you goto a poor neighborhood in the tropics, you'll see many do without a water heater. Instead, they use a 110v plug in water heater that just screws in behind your showerhead. The water goes in and gets heated as it passes through internal heating coils. Granted, they dont work too well, as 110v * 15A just cant put out enough energy to raise the water temp too much. They usually get used in combo with a water saver shower head; not to save water, but by restricting the water flow rate, the water temp can be raised a few more degrees.

It's a little unsettling though to have a power cord going into your shower, especially knowing that its basically a hairdryer with water going through it. But theyre dirt cheap, and work well enough. A big part of this though is that the tropics have fairly warm tap water, so the heater doesnt need to elevate the temp too much.

I have had one for many years and they work great...Instant hot water...the ones we have heat the water inside the shower head. BTW, the water gets hot as hell if you put it on high.

EBGuy says

Getting a natural gas fired (while it is still legal in California) tankless water heater installed in a couple of days. Tell me why I'm making a big mistake.

IMHO, tankless are great for heating water but can be tricky to get the temp correct for showering. It's the opposite of intuitive...the slower the water flows thru it, the hotter it gets but if you turn the flow down too much it shuts off the heat. OTOH, with the old tank style, you balance the temp with hot and cold. Just sayin'.

FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut says

But it's only been two years so I don't know what kind of issues I can have with it.

Batteries for the igniter go dead

Eric Holder says

FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut says

Last month our gas bill was $14. Of course faggot Biden is trying to fix that by increasing natural gas prices with this war shit.

So even if natgas prices double you'll be looking at what, $28 per month bill? And you whine all over Patnet over THAT? Cheeses Crust! Reading you it feels like you're bleeding THOUSANDS per day... And I thought I was cheap, LOL.

it all adds up man. look at it from my perspective. I'm spending $300 more on gas every month now, I drive a lot. Add inflation on every little thing, I'm not rich, it starts adding up. I don't know what natural gas will end up at, double, triple, 10x... I don't know.

EBGuy says

FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut says

I've installed a tankless one (gas). Been 2 years now, so far so good.

I'm curious if you know the size of your unit (was it around 8+gpm, or did you go for the largest unit available at 199k BTUs)?

10 gpm. overkill for the house, but I wasn't sure on the usage. Plumber convinced me on the Noritz brand, said those are the reliable once. Just had to run a thicker gas pipe to it, so they used the flexible one, they sell those at plumbing stores out here. If you get a smaller one, you might not need the volume.

DooDahMan says

Since Natural Gas is/has taken over for a lot of electric generation - you know where those increased costs of generation are going and who is going to pay for them don't you ?

Tesla owners?

Hircus says

A big part of this though is that the tropics have fairly warm tap water, so the heater doesnt need to elevate the temp too much.

Really warm. Hit the sauna and wanted a cold shower after in Mexico. The water was for sure above 75º coming out the tap on full "cold" setting. Living in the midwest our tap water is cold as fuck if you want that. With no freezing, I'd be surprised if they buried water lines much more than a 1'.

WookieMan says

A big part of this though is that the tropics have fairly warm tap water, so the heater doesnt need to elevate the temp too much.

A Australian guy told me nobody has a water heater in northern Australia. The problem they have is cooling the water.

rocketjoe79 says

Has anyone put in a water heater recirculation pump? Did ya save money?

Recirculation pump means you save a gallon or 2 of water but your hot water heater works harder (because the water is always hot in the water line) and you have an additional water pump that runs. I'm guessing that water pump electricity usage is negligible, but that wasted few gallons of water is very cheap compared to the additional natural gas. High water bills are usually for people that water their yards or people who don't realize the bill is mostly for water infrastructure and sewage, which are large, flat-rate fees.

If our California betters get their way natural gas will be phased out for homes. That may already be the case for new homes. See: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/california-is-closing-the-door-to-gas-in-new-homes/?source=patrick.net

Anyway, we're trading in relatively inexpensive natural gas heat for electric heat with our special hand-crafted, non-GMO, organic, gluten-free electrons. Get ready for summer pricing during the hours of 4 to 9 at 47¢ kW/hr. That's a small price to pay for "carbon neutral" (not counting the manufacture of the solar panels and concrete and steel windmill parts using coal-fired Chinese factories).

SunnyvaleCA says

Recirculation pump means you save a gallon or 2 of water but your hot water heater works harder (because the water is always hot in the water line) and you have an additional water pump that runs.

The newer Navien's have a built in buffer tank as well as a recirculation pump. They have enough intelligence that they can analyze your habits and then run the pump when (eg. shortly before AM showers) needed -- or so goes the theory. Efficiency drops from 97% to 96% when you go from the "dumb" S-series to the "smart" A-series of tankless water heaters from Navien. You will save though, by not having to dump the cold water in the hot lines.

WookieMan says

Hircus says

A big part of this though is that the tropics have fairly warm tap water, so the heater doesnt need to elevate the temp too much.

Really warm. Hit the sauna and wanted a cold shower after in Mexico. The water was for sure above 75º coming out the tap on full "cold" setting. Living in the midwest our tap water is cold as fuck if you want that. With no freezing, I'd be surprised if they buried water lines much more than a 1'.

Consider that many homes and businesses have a water tank on the roof in the sun called a tinaco.....that sun heated water feeds the water lines.

I heat just enough water in a kettle on a gas stove each morning for my cup of coffee.

Is that cheaper or more expensive than microwaving the water to boiling? I'm guessing it's cheaper to use the gas stove because energy is lost when converting coal or gas to electricity to run the microwave.

Patrick says

I heat just enough water in a kettle on a gas stove each morning for my cup of coffee.

Is that cheaper or more expensive than microwaving the water to boiling? I'm guessing it's cheaper to use the gas stove because energy is lost when converting coal or gas to electricity to run the microwave.

I'd say a microwave is far more energy efficient as it uses a strong but short lived current to heat up the water (and other) molecules of the food/drinks from the inside, whereas a stove wastes a lot of energy in heat. Unless you re-use that heat of course. Not sure how much the initial conversion costs, but I would say not enough to make up for it. But of course I'm not a biologist

Am I the only one who microwaves my tea? Teabag in a glass beer mug for two minutes.

mell says

Patrick says

I heat just enough water in a kettle on a gas stove each morning for my cup of coffee.

Is that cheaper or more expensive than microwaving the water to boiling? I'm guessing it's cheaper to use the gas stove because energy is lost when converting coal or gas to electricity to run the microwave.

I'd say a microwave is far more energy efficient as it uses a strong but short lived current to heat up the water (and other) molecules of the food/drinks from the inside, whereas a stove wastes a lot of energy in heat. Unless you re-use that heat of course. Not sure how much the initial conversion costs, but I would say not enough to make up for it. But of course I'm not a biologist

If you're heating your home still, you're better off using gas. All the heat that isn't absorbed by the water heats the air, and reduces energy consumption to heat the home.

Electrical heating is, by far, the most inefficient way to heat your home. Ask anybody with electrical heating about their heating bill.

richwicks says

mell says

Patrick says

I heat just enough water in a kettle on a gas stove each morning for my cup of coffee.

Is that cheaper or more expensive than microwaving the water to boiling? I'm guessing it's cheaper to use the gas stove because energy is lost when converting coal or gas to electricity to run the microwave.

I'd say a microwave is far more energy efficient as it uses a strong but short lived current to heat up the water (and other) molecules of the food/drinks from the inside, whereas a stove wastes a lot of energy in heat. Unless you re-use that heat of course. Not sure how much the initial conversion costs, but I would say not enough to make up for it. But of course I'm not a biologist

If you're heating your home still, you're better off using gas. All the heat that isn't absorbed by the ...

Yeah but most of the time you're not heating your home with the stove - in the bay area, most people run the AC as soon as it gets over 80. In cold areas I'd agree although efficient gas heating requires some form of an oven or hot air circulation system and not just a random open flame

mell says

Yeah but most of the time you're not heating your home with the stove - in the bay area, most people run the AC as soon as it gets over 80. In cold areas I'd agree although efficient gas heating requires some form of an oven or hot air circulation system and not just a random open flame

I'm just pointing out you're better off heating water with a gas stove than with a microwave in winter so long as you don't have on the air conditioning.

The problem isn't probably worth figuring out because I think in each case, the cost is negligible - if it was anything that mattered, you'd be charged to use a microwave at the local 7/11 when you're warming up a burrito.

I know it's trivial in either case, but then, I do it every day.

Patrick says

I know it's trivial in either case, but then, I do it every day.

Boil water on the gas stove when you have your furnace on, heat it in a microwave when you have your air conditioner on.

Heating the water with a gas stove dissipates CO2 into your home though but if you're regularly cooking on your stove, it's hardly any change.

I'm old skool - I refuse to use a microwave. They were a cool neat thing when I was 15 back in 1985, but they ruin food. I'd rather heat up just about everything in the oven or on the stove now. It takes more time, but I think it tends to taste better. Have you ever made popcorn on a stove versus a microwave? You can make popcorn in ghee oil if you like. Those bags... ugh.

You need a saucepan to do it - shake the kernels down, and dump the popcorn into a larger container. It's way more of a hassle, but it's a much better product in my opinion - for what it is. I've not made popcorn in 30 years.

EBGuy says

than

i don't even own a microwave.

So now I no longer have 30 gallons of potable water when the Big One on the Hayward fault hits the Bay Area. I think that's the biggest negative of going tankless.

Air Fryer/Mini Convention Oven. Even make hard boiled eggs in there without waiting for a pot of water to boil.

Save my meat drippings and slather some asparagus and broccoli in garlic and meat sauce, cook 2-5 minutes depending on frozen/size of floret. BAM! Meat and veggies.

I make 90% of my meals in the Air Fryer, best thing ever. Seldom add any oil, except a pat of butter when flipping over a steak or making some veggies and don't want the heavy meat drippings.

Sausages or Chicken. frozen? 7-9 minutes at 400 in the Air Fryer, again no oil. Slather it with some Sirachca and Green Onions, and I'm good. Or sprinkle a tiny bit of Italian Sauce and Moz cheese in the last minute for Parm Style.

Reheat a slice of pizza on cheat day or kid meal? 2-3 minutes in the airfryer, nice melted cheese and crispy without a hint of sogginess. Ditto for empanadas and toast and even pancakes (I make dozens of silver dollars in advance and freeze them, make them for my kids breakfast with blueberries).

I make hot water in an electric kettle, one tea or coffee at a time. No Mr. Coffee either, I have a French Press but usually just use a stainless steel over the mug pour over. No filters to remember to buy, no mess, each cup fresh.

Also: Newman's anything sauce or dressing related, none to very little Carb/Soy Oil than the similarly priced competition. Wishbone, Kraft, etc. are Soy Oil up the ass.

Microwaves are shit, make everything soggy. It's a generational thing, most people who came of age in the 70s think they're the bomb. Almost everybody else hates 'em.

I have a Rinaii on demand propane in my cabin in MT. Been going for 15 years. Unlimited hot well water.

AmericanKulak says

Microwaves are shit, make everything soggy.

Somehow microwaving bread makes it tough.

EBGuy says

Am I the only one who microwaves my tea? Teabag in a glass beer mug for two minutes.

I have a cup of tea every morning too. I don't like microwaved water for my tea. It doesn't seem to get as hot as stove or electric kettle tea and leaves a slight foam on top. I like the electric kettles, 1500watt to 1800 watt. They are faster than a microwave. I read that microwaves dont heat water evenly and leaves cold spots. Plus some bags have a small staple.
https://www.livingonadime.com/boiling-water-stove-or-microwave/?source=patrick.net

AmericanKulak says

Air Fryer/Mini Convention Oven. Even make hard boiled eggs in there without waiting for a pot of water to boil.

Save my meat drippings and slather some asparagus and broccoli in garlic and meat sauce, cook 2-5 minutes depending on frozen/size of floret. BAM! Meat and veggies.

I make 90% of my meals in the Air Fryer, best thing ever. Seldom add any oil, except a pat of butter when flipping over a steak or making some veggies and don't want the heavy meat drippings.

Sausages or Chicken. frozen? 7-9 minutes at 400 in the Air Fryer, again no oil. Slather it with some Sirachca and Green Onions, and I'm good. Or sprinkle a tiny bit of Italian Sauce and Moz cheese in the last minute for Parm Style.

Reheat a slice of pizza on cheat day or kid meal? 2-3 minutes in the airfryer, nice melted cheese and crispy without a hint of sogginess. Ditto for empanadas and toast and even pancakes (I make dozens of silver dollars in advance and freeze them, make them for...

is there a good brand you recommend?

mell says

I'd say a microwave is far more energy efficient as it uses a strong but short lived current to heat up the water (and other) molecules of the food/drinks from the inside, whereas a stove wastes a lot of energy in heat.

From an economics standpoint, I'd guess a gas cooktop will cost you less than a microwave for heating water. Sure, the gas cooktop will release 3x or 4x the total amount of energy into your house, but that energy is very cheap. The microwave does most of its heating in the natural-gas energy plant somewhere far away.

I have an energy meter called the Kill-a-watt. You plug it into the wall outlet and then you plug your appliance into the kill-a-watt and have the energy measured. You can get instantaneous wattage and amperage as well as a running total of the kW/hr.

What I've learned is that things that run continuously can add up over time! The refrigerator isn't quite "continuous," but it's the big one that's always plugged in. If you have a desktop computer that doesn't sleep you might be looking at 100 watts --> 2.4 kW/hr per day.

Small appliances like microwave, coffee maker, rice maker, toaster oven, etc. don't add up to much because they don't run for very long. My tiny rice maker is 100 watts and only runs for 20 minutes from time to time; that's only 1/3 kW/hr per use.

Cooktop and oven (240v so I can't even measure them) just don't run for very long. Ty are both 30 amps, so theoretically 7.2 kW/hr each for an hour of maximum usage. But nobody runs these for an hour full-out.

I have electric dryer. That is 30 amps by 240v and runs for 30 minutes or more. That's brutal. I usually pre-dry towels and other heavy items with the "solar powered clothes dryer" in the back yard for a while before throwing into the dryer. The dryer is one appliance I actually try to reduce usage and/or shift to off-peak-pricing time.

Washing machine and dishwasher are interesting. Neither uses much electrical power except if on hottest setting (or "sanitize" for the dishwasher). In those modes, you're looking at 1 kW/hr per run. Otherwise it is less than 1/4 of that.

My desktop computer is about 75 watts but is connected to a 250 watt 65-inch TV. It also runs a lot.

richwicks says

use a microwave at the local 7/11 when you're warming up a burrito.

Eww!

komputodo says

I like the electric kettles, 1500watt to 1800 watt.

They are also nice as you you don't have to worry about boiling away the water and destroying your stove top kettle (as nameless members of my household have done...)

AmericanKulak says

I make 90% of my meals in the Air Fryer, best thing ever.

Depending on the destination, we'll actually travel with our air fryer. Not joking. We've legit have had air fryer parties. If we're doing a one nighter at a hotel within driving distance we always bring it. If we're going with others our room usually ends up being the party spot for the late night snacks.

I think an air fryer is just like the convection setting on my toaster oven.

Patrick says

I think an air fryer is just like the convection setting on my toaster oven.

I had a toaster/convection oven I used last summer in lieu of buying an air fryer, and it took far longer to make the food than a dedicated air fryer. The air fryer has a much smaller space and cooks it faster, more evenly, too. You can also toast bread in an air fryer if you want, and it's 1-2 minutes just like a regular toaster.

Cleanup is far easier than a convection oven, just pull out the basket and rinse in the sink, and it's ready to go. Dump out the crumbs and whatnot and let the sink drainer collect it, rather than getting crumbs on the counter/floor by wiping the inside of a convection oven with a cloth/paper towel. Also no need for aluminium foil unless the dish is really greasy or full of sauce.

It's also easier to collect bacon/meat fat in an airfryer, just pour out the basket contents into a jar. Unlike a convection oven, where you have to handle the pan carefully or dribble it all over.

FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut says

is there a good brand you recommend?

Right now I have one made by Instant as in "Instapot": the "Vortex Plus". I searched high and low for an American one, but sadly, none I could find. I also owned a cheap generic with analog dials which was just as good.

I find convection ovens not to cook the same or as fast as the air fryer with the bottom removable basket.

Also, you can get small air fryers if you want one for an office/workshop.

komputodo says

I don't like microwaved water for my tea.

Ditto, it's not the same somehow.

AmericanKulak says

Cleanup is far easier than a convection oven, just pull out the basket and rinse in the sink, and it's ready to go. Dump out the crumbs and whatnot and let the sink drainer collect it, rather than getting crumbs on the counter/floor by wiping the inside of a convection oven with a cloth/paper towel.

It's amazing as well if you have kids. Cooks frozen nuggets (I know bad) in about 8 minutes that are crispy and not mushy. And as you say the crumbs are easily gotten rid of without taking up dishwasher space. Does well for boiled eggs the few times I've done it. Bacon actually does well, but you have to do multiple rounds for just 1 package.

We have an Instapot as well, but we find a dedicated air fryer to be better. Only plus with Instapot is the ability to sear meat. Basically you could cook any meal in say your standard hotel room that that maybe will have a microwave. My chef buddy made some insane Italian beef out of an Instapot when we shared a room for a concert in South Bend, IN. Better than any I've ever had. My issue with them is they're just too damn big and heavy. Don't like the lid. The pressure cooking part requires it though.