patrick.net

SunnyvaleCA says

nd, as you note, whatever you get you are stuck with. Good idea to get something you can live with.

You are right. I would rather spend a few hundred dollars more and get the right laptop. Buy once, cry once. Doesn't make sense to save a few hundred dollars on this daily and primary tool. Are you a computer professional in Sunnyvale? Do you anticipate a slowdown in IT industry in the next few years?

I have a 2017 and a 2020 Thinkpad (X1 Carbon is the 2020 - not sure about the '17 but I think its the same).

I replaced the 2017 because it started having battery life issues and would get super hot - almost like the fan refused to come on for cooling. The 2020 is still doing ok.

Both have the worst track pads I have ever used. The 2020 is better as the 2017 made the laptop barely usable at times (it was intermittent). I've tried all kinds of drivers without success but finally settled on uninstalling all of the lenovo software and let windows do the driving - this seems to have helped immensely.

stfu says

Both have the worst track pads I have ever used. The

I recall the Lenovo Thinkpad I had several years back had a very crappy track pad. It was very very annoying.

stfu says

Both have the worst track pads I have ever used.

USB mouse!

My Laptop I am currently using for my going to town rig, is more than 4 years old already. It's the longest I have ever had a laptop that gets daily use.
I never touch it though, it sits on my desk with the lid open another monitor plugged in, a USB mouse and a blue tooth keyboard. It looks as new as the day I bought it, not a single finger rash on any key.

I prefer a larger screen, despite the extra weight. I have a ThinkPad for work, runs great no issues, also a Lenovo gaming PC I bought last year that I use to run my side engineering buisness. Other than a sticky keyboard (kid spilt juice on it) it also runs great.

Keep in mind, whatever you pick up will be almost obsolete by the time the kid graduates.

I've haven't used a Mac since high school. Too much money for what it is. Windows PCs aren't great, but 99% of the buisness world still uses them.

I'm also a big fan of open source software. Tired of giving more money to Bill Gates than I have to.

gabbar says

Are you in the computer industry? Would you consider mentoring my kid a little bit? I am not in the computer industry.

I am, I work as a software engineer. Sorry, not really interested in mentoring right now.

stfu says

Both have the worst track pads I have ever used. The 2020 is better as the 2017 made the laptop barely usable at times (it was intermittent). I've tried all kinds of drivers without success but finally settled on uninstalling all of the lenovo software and let windows do the driving - this seems to have helped immensely.

I had a w540 for a while (I think 2014 era model), and it had that totally crap trackpad that was a thin flimsy piece of floating plastic, and had no buttons, so you had to press the corners and stuff as buttons. I don't know anyone who liked those, and always wondered why they even experimented with it. But I thought they got rid of it and went back to the previous style within a yr or 2.

I usually bring a small travel mouse with me so I dont have to use trackpads. I've never liked any of them.

I would go Thinkpad and Mint if they're used to Windows. So if it's new, should save some money by not adding an OS. Generally 14-15in is good for screen size. Should be at least a dual core, but quad would be preferable. No i5, at least i7 or newer. RAM should be at least 12GB, although if it's a thinkpad T series I believe it is replaceable. SSD for hard drive. But if you go with Windows 10, and especially if you don't purge all the spying SW, will need to up these specs for sure.

Get a used laptop and install Linux Mint on it.

No student needs one with a non-integrated graphics card unless they're using it for games. If it can access the internet and run Open Office/LibreOffice, that's all they need.

Though a monitor is nice.


gabbar says

Not into Apple ecosystem.

Excellent.

Like other said, try
1. Mac that is close to Linux
2. If college requires windooooz (I see $800-$1500 6-8 CPUs, 16-32GB RAM at Costco) buy and install Virtual machine (like http://openbox.org) and install Linux on it.
3. Like others said above buy a (not too) cheap new/old laptop and install any Linux flavor (I like Ubuntu) with dual boot to keep windows and Linux.
Linux is very flexible to be able to install quite a number open source software and experiment while leaning, its a lot of fun :)
Do not buy too cheap with less number of CPUs if he wants to do some serious stuff, very likely it will pay him back in no time.

https://www.razer.com/gaming-laptops/Razer-Blade-17/RZ09-0406AEA3-R3U1?source=patrick.net

https://www.razer.com/gaming-laptops/Razer-Book/RZ09-0357MEM2-R3U1?source=patrick.net

https://www.razer.com/education?source=patrick.net

Hircus says

xeon cpus are also comparable to H (actually I think generally a bit higher end), but its kinda a high end thing allowing you to use ECC ram. I wouldnt mind one, but not sure I'd go out of my way for one unless I really wanted a top of the line model spare no cost.

I checked and was surprised... it's actually possible to buy a xeon laptop! I can't fathom the benefits of such a setup with a low wattage and low core count, so I'm tempted to believe it's just marketing.

Xeons have the following advantages:
• Memory architecture that scales to higher throughput to support more cores (even if it's actually longer latency, so slows each individual core down)
• ECC memory (so if memory fails you get a nice message stating the cause — you're still crashing either way)
• More cores! (but generally slower clock speed)
• Cross-CPU cache coherency (so that you can run 2 CPUs each with more cores)
• More PCI lanes (so you can connect even more PCI cards to the system because 7 card's just isn't enough)
• No built-in video acceleration — get your own PCI card
• Motherboard chipsets that allow for terabytes of RAM (further increasing power consumption and motherboard size)

Every single one of those benefits is a detriment to a laptop. You would wind up with an expensive machine that runs at 300+ watts. Typical high end laptops are 50 to 100 watts full tilt.

Has anyone here tried wsl (windows subsystem for Linux) yet?

I’m an old school nerd like a lot of you here sound like so I thought the only option was to run a VM if you needed Linux in windows.

Nope! I’m now running full Ubuntu Linux as an app in a window on my full windows desktop. It has its own file system but it mounts my c drive so I can share files. I can have 2 shells open, one dos another bash and switch back and forth running scripts.

It is by far and away the best setup for programming work I have had. I get the superior windows desktop and app ecosystem while being able to drop in to Linux to run nerd programs.

You don't need Windows anymore if want MS experience.
There's a Linux Visual Studio for writing CORE apps, and it has a SQL server as well.

I installed it on one of my retired laptops a few years ago. I upgraded a pretty complex application from .Net to .Core and got it to compile and run.
Even the SQL implementation was painless. I then set it aside and haven't touched it since. But it worked!

Blue says

Do not buy too cheap with less number of CPUs if he wants to do some serious stuff, very likely it will pay him back in no time.

I understand. I have no intention of going cheap. I am budgeted to spend upto $1500 to $2000. I just want him to have an excellent laptop that will get him through 4 years of undergraduate school. However, I do not want to overbuy and over complicate it. I just want something that will HIM and his needs.

I will buy him an another one after he gets his degree.

gabbar says

I understand. I have no intention of going cheap. I am budgeted to spend upto $1500 to $2000. I just want him to have an excellent laptop that will get him through 4 years of undergraduate school. However, I do not want to overbuy and over complicate it. I just want something that will HIM and his needs.

I'd say, get him a basic used laptop, don't spend over $700.

If he wants to play Call of Duty 3000:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysKhbaLyIFw&source=patrick.net

No reason a healthy 18-21 year old can't work a few hours a week for beer & GPU money while going to school full time. Shit, he'll be partying like crazy until 4AM many nights whether or not he works 10-15 hours a week somewhere. Work is good for them.

See also half the Millennials as to how "Dont work, just study" worked out, they're 30 and still expecting parents to set up doc appointments and/or laundry service. I've seen this IRL, huge difference between my 2010 "Only here for resume padding, so I'll call in 'sick' again" milly interns vs. my 2019 "Can I get more hours? Money is Good" Zoomer interns.

Blue says

Like other said, try
1. Mac that is close to Linux
2. If college requires windooooz (I see $800-$1500 6-8 CPUs, 16-32GB RAM at Costco) buy and install Virtual machine (like http://openbox.org) and install Linux on it.
3. Like others said above buy a (not too) cheap new/old laptop and install any Linux flavor (I like Ubuntu) with dual boot to keep windows and Linux.
Linux is very flexible to be able to install quite a number open source software and experiment while leaning, its a lot of fun :)
Do not buy too cheap with less number of CPUs if he wants to do some serious stuff, very likely it will pay him back in no time.

I talked to somebody Wednesday - if I'm correct, MAC has moved to ARM as it's main processor and will soon drop x86 support entirely.

As a result of this, running a VM of Windows on a MAC or a VM of MAC under Windows (or Linux) may not be practical. Simulating an entire processor in software is not efficient and people that have used Qemu know this. It's in THEORY possible, but it's painful. It's SOOOOO SLOW.

Windows supports ARM, so does Linux, but I'm not certain about the quality of the distributions. I run a raspberry pi which is ARM - it's a capable computer, HOWEVER, it is nothing compared to my 7 year old i7 8 core 32 GB machine. It's like working on a computer from 2000. It works, but it's a little painful.

pudil says

Has anyone here tried wsl (windows subsystem for Linux) yet?

I'm about to test it out at work because Mac no longer uses intel chips but instead the M1 - which won't let us compile many bioinformatics packages in docker anymore.

richwicks says

It's like working on a computer from 2000. It works, but it's a little painful.

Yes, ideally its better to have either 1. Mac (costco: $1,449.99 MacBook Pro 13.3",M1 Chip 8-core CPU, 8-core GPU, 8GB, 512GB SSD) or 2. buy Windows box that supports dual boot and install Linux to be able to run Linux natively (I like this option).
The next alternative is get Linux laptop like Dell XPS 13 Laptop.

pudil says

Has anyone here tried wsl (windows subsystem for Linux) yet?

I know somebody that tried to use it years ago.

It sucks. Files written would be lost, it was a disaster. I don't know how it is now.

I use Linux as my base operating system. Samba is trivial to setup now though and if you want help with this - ask Patrick to give you my email address. Basically, it just means modifying your /etc/samba/smb.conf and adding the above to your smb.conf at the end of the file:

[SHARE_NAME]
    comment = SOME_SHARE_NAME-THIS_ISN'T_TOO_USEFUL
    path = /home/UNIX_USERNAME
    read only = no
    browsable = yes

Anything in caps, you need to replace. You will have to lookup smbpasswd to set a password for it.

If I run Windows now I do it as a VM and I setup the OS and use a Samba drive for storage on my main system. Setting up MacOS under this system isn't exactly trivial, although I've done it once, I can't seem to repeat it. If I can successfully setup a MacOS system again, I will document it. I just end up with a fucking blank screen. You need an INTEL processor for this, not AMD.

Does anyone have any thoughts about how Dell Precision vs Lenovo Thinkpad laptops compare?

Any comments about this laptop for freshman in college of engineering?

gabbar says

Does anyone have any thoughts about how Dell Precision vs Lenovo Thinkpad laptops compare?

Dell has a smother touchpad, Lenovo has hard right and left mouse click buttons, and a joystick. The Joystick takes some getting used to, to master it smoothly, and the touchpad isn't as responsive as the Dell. The Lenovo is built like a tank, the Dell has two year, obsolescence and self destruct built into it. At least that's been the experience with the 7 or 9 I bought over the years. Lenovo feels like a cheap shitty laptop, so they don't get stolen from companies. But the truth is you can't kill them and they are built like a tank. Where as the pretty thin, sleek Dells, that deploy the latest much have features, grow legs and walk away.

I think Lenovo gives you more for what you pay in the midrange laptops, that are priced in the $700 to $1500, you have to get a Dell refurbish to get as much specs for the money in that class, or buy a consumer class Laptop like an Inspiron(if they even still make them). I eventually dumped Dell and went Samsung. Samsung were thinner, nicer laptops for the money, but they too only lasted about 2 years. I wasn't happy with what I got for what I paid with my last Samsung laptop. But going on 4 years, it's still going strong. For the most part I credit. The fact that it sits above my desk on a monitor stand, connected to a Monitor hanging on the wall, and I use external mouse and keyboards for it. I doubt it would have lasted a year, if it were a rig I carried around in a Backpack everyday, and plugged and unplugged it in at two different locations.

In summary they are all shit, and have all had their golden years, when one over the other reigned supreme.
I would go with the Lenovo, that's what I would get if I were to buy a new Laptop. I know that the other brands had their day, but that day is in the past.

gabbar says

Any comments about this laptop for freshman in college of engineering?

It's 2012 specs with an updated UHD display.
Get a Solid State drive, SSHD is a hybrid, still has a spindle.

gabbar says

Any comments about this laptop for freshman in college of engineering?

16 GB is plenty, I'm on a computer that has 32 GB, is a desktop, and I commonly run 3 virtual machines on top of it - meaning I run 4 operating systems at the same time.

I also have an i7, it's now ANCIENT, but it's "good enough".

I'm an engineer, this is plenty for me. It was overkill when I bought it, and it cost me about $1,000 to build.

The most important thing is how much MEMORY it has, you want a minimum of 8GB. Disk storage, whatever, but 1TB is plenty. It's a fine computer, although personally I wouldn't want Windows on it, but I'm a freak engineer. That laptop should be able to comfortably run VirtualBox is they want to run Linux.

It's a fine machine based on the specs, if you're satisfied with the price I'd say go for it.

Tenpoundbass says

t's 2012 specs with an updated UHD display.
Get a Solid State drive, SSHD is a hybrid, still has a spindle.

So its a 10 year build? How did you identify its age? And no, I don't want a hybrid drive.

Tenpoundbass says

In summary they are all shit, and have all had their golden years, when one over the other reigned supreme.
I would go with the Lenovo, that's what I would get if I were to buy a new Laptop. I know that the other brands had their day, but that day is in the past.

Lenovo gets the most votes on this post. Thank you.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/05/lenovo-tumbles-after-report-about-alleged-chinese-spy-chips.html

Lenovo shares tumble following report about alleged Chinese spy chips

Ultra_FJB says

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/05/lenovo-tumbles-after-report-about-alleged-chinese-spy-chips.html

Lenovo shares tumble following report about alleged Chinese spy chips

This is always a possibility when you outsource to a different country with its own self interest. Maybe it is even legit in the business world.