patrick.net

NuttBoxer says

IF it's true.

LINK? No pictures, CDC website and someway to verify it's been updated either through the wayback machine, or something similar.

As a chemical / environmental engineer who specializes in process equipment and pollution control, many of my friends and associates have asked my take on this.

In crisis you need to make hard decisions quickly. Attempting a "controlled" depresurization of the tank contents was preferable to an uncontrolled explosion. Plus there were several cars on fire and we don't know for sure what was in each. A chain reaction of tankers exploding... who knows what would have gone where.

As for Vinyl Chloride (VC) specifically it's permissible exposure limit is only 1 ppmv. By burning it you end up with hydrochloric acid... sounds scarry but it's less dangerous. It's a strong acid but NOT a carcinogen.

Basically
C2H3Cl + O2 --> HCl + H2O + CO2
[I didn't bother balancing the equation]

In fact incineration (followed by scrubbing) is how one would treat laege scale VC emissions at a chemical plant.

Adsorption also works, but is impractical for the quantity of material in this case; for every 1b of VC You need 70 to 100 lbs of absorbent. I doubt they'd be able to mobilize that much material that quickly.

Plus, dilution is the solution to pollution. As much as it sucks getting HCL in the air (I have not heard about them scrubbing at all... probably to problematic to deploy a scrubber to the site and set it up) it will dissipate.

Now the water and the soil are another matter... but here two there are ways to get it clean, even under the tracks, via in Situ Thermal Remediation.

That can come later. Right now they need to mitigate as best the can and clear out the wreckage.

I'm not saying the EPA or the feds are infallible on this.. from what I've read the entire crisis could have been managed better... but Incannrespect that I the moment they are choosing the "least bad" option based on limited information.

As an aside, yes VC is a known carcinogen and yes it has been outlawed or replaced in many industrial processes... (TCE used to be used as a degreaer / solvent... over time it decomposes to VC... thus TCE usage has been regulated pretty much out of existance. Dry cleaners used to use it by the drum full.)

However VC is the main feedstock used to make PVC and CPVC... the sort of stuff you have at your local hardware store for plumbing projects.

And the majority of bulk chemical is shipped by rail, rather than road because it is "safer". Most major chemical plants have a rail spur that goes right to the plants point of loading and unloading.

A massive derailment introduces a host of complicating factors.

FWIW, I am noodling on a mitigation method that could be field deployed quickly should something like this happen in the future.

That's all fine, but what about the dead animals? The dead fish? The sick people? The statements by those agencies you are kind of supporting that everyone can live in the contaminated area? The Netflix movie about the same thing a year ago? The update to Vinyl Chloride by CDC before the train derails?

Also, the railway employees being put on shit schedules for years now? Someone who works in the railway industry stating that the wheel's sparking is related to maintenance that's never done on time?

NuttBoxer says

That's all fine, but what about the dead animals? The dead fish? The sick people? The statements by those agencies you are kind of supporting that everyone can live in the contaminated area? The Netflix movie about the same thing a year ago? The update to Vinyl Chloride by CDC before the train derails?

NuttBoxer says

Also, the railway employees being put on shit schedules for years now? Someone who works in the railway industry stating that the wheel's sparking is related to maintenance that's never done on time?

Agreed. This warrants prison time for those involved, or, if you want to leave govt out, a people uprising with similar consequences. There is no excuse for this.

There were plenty of F ups to go around. Frankly, ut's surprising these events don't happen more frequently. I'm just saying once the train is off the tracks (literally) then what?

There are limited options. Your not going to put Humpty Dumpty back together again easily.

GreaterNYCDude says

I'm just saying once the train is off the tracks (literally) then what?

There are limited options. Your not going to put Humpty Dumpty back together again easily.

Yeah, other than not transporting these chemicals to start with, I don't know what else you do. Even if standards improved, I don't think the materials produced with these chemicals justify the risk.

GreaterNYCDude says

There were plenty of F ups to go around.

I don't know, fuck-ups indicated lack of intention. Some of the events surrounding this point to it being intentional. Even negligence at some point crosses the line from acceptable to criminal.

Interesting take on why White Noise was shot. I don't subscribe to the acceptance piece discussed though. I was never ok with any of these events, regardless of what may have attempted to implant in my brain prior to their occurrence.

https://www.infowars.com/posts/predictive-programming-and-the-ohio-train-wreck/

NuttBoxer says

GreaterNYCDude says

I'm just saying once the train is off the tracks (literally) then what?

There are limited options. Your not going to put Humpty Dumpty back together again easily.

Yeah, other than not transporting these chemicals to start with, I don't know what else you do. Even if standards improved, I don't think the materials produced with these chemicals justify the risk.

We could make more of the precursor ls here in the states in proximity to the plants that convert them to useful products.

I'd be curious to know where these cars originated from.

NuttBoxer says

Also, the railway employees being put on shit schedules for years now? Someone who works in the railway industry stating that the wheel's sparking is related to maintenance that's never done on time?

I don't think it's possible to set up and succesfully execute a railroad-wide conspiracy to keep one particular train car out of regular maintenance and then put it in a right place at a right time. This kinda kills the whole "intentionally organized wreck ordered by reptiloids from Vanguard who manage some ETFs holding some RR shares" angle. And to what end? Kill some chickens in 10 mile (OK, I'll be generous - 100 mile) circle around a small town in Ohio and thus force the whole world to "eat ze bugz"?

There must be more efficient means to reach that end methinks.

Appears to be completely fake:

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0658.html

NuttBoxer says

https://celiafarber.substack.com/p/photo-shows-dead-birds-in-lexington

Photo Shows Dead Birds In Lexington Kentucky, 350 Miles From East Palestine, OH
Not confirmed, Reported on FB; Some Are Saying ALL Who Live In PA, NY, NJ, and CT Should Not Go Outside In Tomorrow's Rain

NuttBoxer says

Even if standards improved, I don't think the materials produced with these chemicals justify the risk.

Do you shit in a toilet? Whether you like it or not, these chemicals are a necessity. We should have a network of below frost line pipelines throughout the country. Underground "railway" of 12-48" pipes for different materials. Have shut off valves every X miles for each line. Worst case in a break is water supply which is tested frequently per EPA guidelines.

If this burst in the ground we likely wouldn't even hear about it. It could be mitigated much faster. Accidents will always happen. This shit being on the ground and burned is literally the worst case scenario. Leftist need to get over their pipeline problem.

We've created canals all over the country for large quantities of water. This shouldn't be a difficult task. You can boat from Chicago down the Mississippi and only hit open water on the gulf of Mexico and get back to Chicago. Probably 1/5th of it dealing with locks and dams. Yet we can't dig a 6' trench between major cities/hubs and bury pipes for gas, oil, and other chemicals?

Add on, Warren Buffet and BNSF are probably the biggest issue with pipe lines. It would likely chop off 30-40% of BNSF's gross income. Buffet wouldn't like that.

https://beckernews.com/moments-after-trump-49369/

Just Moments After Trump Declares Trip to East Palestine, FEMA Announces Reversal on Ohio Disaster Aid

https://www.theepochtimes.com/major-us-city-closing-down-ohio-river-intake-after-train-derailment_5066504.html?utm_source=share-btn-copylink

The City of Cincinnati announced on Friday that it will shut down its Ohio River intake to prevent any possible contamination from the East Palestine, Ohio, train derailment earlier this month.

The city, in a statement, said that it and the Greater Cincinnati Water Works (GCWW) are monitoring the Ohio River, one of the largest rivers in the United States, after the chemical spill in East Palestine. Earlier this week, an Ohio environmental official confirmed that a plume of chemicals was observed traveling down the Ohio River, and at the time, it was located near Huntington, West Virginia.

Patrick says

The city, in a statement, said that it and the Greater Cincinnati Water Works (GCWW) are monitoring the Ohio River, one of the largest rivers in the United States, after the chemical spill in East Palestine.

The river is fucked. Ohio is a shit hole anyway. Home of the most river fires: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/cuyahoga-river-caught-fire-least-dozen-times-no-one-cared-until-1969-180972444/

Their fucking roads/tolls can eat shit along with Indiana. We have IL tolls, but they actually take care of the roads. 39/90 North into Wisconsin is much improved. Indiana and Ohio are shit shows. Roughly $20 to cross each state. It's why we fly to Cleveland to see family there. Literally cheaper. Airport is on the way too. Takes a similar time, but I prefer to chill and not fuck up my back on either states roads. Did I say shit holes?

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2023/02/17/bidens-own-administration-calls-pete-buttigiegs-claims-on-east-palestine-train-misinformation/

https://thefederalist.com/2023/02/17/why-is-pete-buttigieg-allowed-to-keep-failing-upward/

A Vice President Buttigieg, having only an unremarkable tenure as mayor of South Bend and a terrible tenure at the Department of Transportation to his name, would be one medical event away from the nation’s top office.

Buggigieg's sole "qualification" is being gay. The Cult attributes moral superiority to gay men.

https://patrick.net/post/1378576/2023-02-17-the-cult

RWSGFY says

I don't think it's possible to set up and succesfully execute a railroad-wide conspiracy to keep one particular train car out of regular maintenance and then put it in a right place at a right time.

No one said that, this is routine maintenance neglected for all cars according to railway worker. So they wouldn't have to look far for a candidate.

RWSGFY says

Kill some chickens in 10 mile (OK, I'll be generous - 100 mile) circle around a small town in Ohio and thus force the whole world to "eat ze bugz"

People have reported pollution outside of the state, more than 100 miles away. Read up on the Ohio River, and river valley, and the farming in that area. Millions of people's food and drinking water is poisoned for decades to come. The small farm is more important to our survival than almost anything else. And it's been disappearing since the Industrial Repollution.

RWSGFY says

There must be more efficient means to reach that end methinks.

Like a shot they force you to inject? But like I said, don't under-estimate the damage this does to an already strained food industry.

If you don't connect the dots and see the bigger picture of the enemy who's attacking you, you will continue to fall into his traps.

Bd6r says

Appears to be completely fake:

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0658.html

That section doesn't appear to reference the same information. It's pretty easy to see with a web search that in January they modified Vinyl Chloride.
https://old.reddittorjg6rue252oqsxryoxengawnmo46qy4kyii5wtqnwfj4ooad.onion/r/conspiracy/comments/113d47o/why_did_the_cdc_update_their_profile_for_vinyl/j8qt4yp/
https://web.archive.org/web/20230206190743/https://wwwn.cdc.gov/TSP/ToxFAQs/ToxFAQsDetails.aspx?faqid=281&toxid=51
https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp20.pdf

WookieMan says

Do you shit in a toilet? Whether you like it or not, these chemicals are a necessity.

Explain human survival for thousands of years without them. Composting toilets are more efficient, and environmentally friendly. Although their wrong about this being the biggest environmental disaster in the US. That's DuPont...

I would want to test the water and soil in East Palestine and surrounding areas. Trace that to the death of the animals (chickens, fish, etc.).

I read the MSDS and it states this: "Ensure emergency procedures to deal with accidental gas releases are in place to avoid contamination of the environment. Inform the relevant authorities if the product has caused environmental pollution (sewers, waterways, soil or air)."

Also the MSDS states to wear a respirator when responding to spills and when working with this gas in poorly ventilated spaces.

Vinyl chloride is given a rating of 2 on a health scale of 0 (no health risk) to 4 (deadly) within the MSDS.

Source:
https://www.airgas.com/msds/001067.pdf

,

WookieMan says

NuttBoxer says

If this burst in the ground we likely wouldn't even hear about it.

Unless you are underneath the water table any leaks would eventually find their way in the ground water. Double confinement with leak detection (24 in pipe inside 36 in pipe) would mitigate that risk.

Can it be done.. yes? Is it economical? Hasn't been historically. But if the green crew really wants to improve things for future generations... your idea has merit. Plus it would create jobs here in America.

Win. Win.

Patrick says

The real boss move would be to chestfeed on live TV - that'd shut up everybody for good.

NuttBoxer says

That section doesn't appear to reference the same information. It's pretty easy to see with a web search that in January they modified Vinyl Chloride.
https://old.reddittorjg6rue252oqsxryoxengawnmo46qy4kyii5wtqnwfj4ooad.onion/r/conspiracy/comments/113d47o/why_did_the_cdc_update_their_profile_for_vinyl/j8qt4yp/
https://web.archive.org/web/20230206190743/https://wwwn.cdc.gov/TSP/ToxFAQs/ToxFAQsDetails.aspx?faqid=281&toxid=51
https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp20.pdf

I can't find anywhere that they changed lethal exposure from 100 ppm to 100,000 ppm. I think this type of fake information is inserted to deboooonk other, serious claims. "This board claimed that they changed lethal exposure, which is wrong - it means that other 100 documented things must also be wrong".

Bd6r says

I can't find anywhere that they changed lethal exposure from 100 ppm to 100,000 ppm.

On that part same. The only time 100k comes up is in exposure for rats and mice studies. The important part here is they did edit it after a long time of no change, right before Vinyl Chloride was released at levels never before seen.

The MSDS for vinyl chloride lists the exposure limits as follows

5 PPM for 15 minutes

1 PPM for 8 hours

Source:
https://www.airgas.com/msds/001067.pdf

....

Bd6r says

I can't find anywhere that they changed lethal exposure from 100 ppm to 100,000 ppm. I think this type of fake information is inserted to deboooonk other, serious claims.

Yes, that's what it's exactly.

It's tempting to think this is just an honest mistake, or some asshole is just trolling. That's POSSIBLE.

But it's more likely intelligence. This is called kookification. This propaganda method is to feed people who are on the right track of some government malfeasance, and to get them to repeat something so anybody listening to them stops listening to them, when they repeat something false about an event.

9/11 was most likely done by our government, by if you talk about it, there's so much BULLSHIT that is out there, that you seem like a nut if you bring it up. That's what Judy Woods is for. She claims the buildings were destroyed by "directed energy weapons". She's got credentials, but she's a fucking intelligence asset. She's full of shit, and that's her job, to be full of shit to cover up for gross criminality in our government.

https://notthebee.com/article/this-viral-train-track-isnt-in-the-3rd-world-this-is-ohio

I'm beginning to understand why that train derailed in East Palestine. Watch 👇

WTF?

GNL says

WTF?

Shutup!

We need to spend more fucking money on WAR!!!!

At one point, I was anti-war because of morality. Now I'm anti-war for the survival of our fucking nation.

richwicks says

GNL says

WTF?

Shutup!

We need to spend more fucking money on WAR!!!!

At one point, I was anti-war because of morality. Now I'm anti-war for the survival of our fucking nation.

Remind me not to live near any railroads.

Define near…