patrick.net

I've sometimes suspected this myself, being a programmer. You set up rules for your own creation in memory. Existence and non-existence are just forms that come at go at the will of the programmer. And yes, the programmer can make anything happen, violating his own rules at will.

I got halfway through "Guide for the Perplexed" by Moses Maimonides, but it was jut too dense and medieval so I put it away for now.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/gfp/

I think Maimonides would have agreed with the idea of God as the programmer, setting things in motion, and tweaking with miracles when it suited him. Maimonides was attempting to reconcile Greek philosophy (forms, matter, celestial spheres) with the Old Testament.

I learned some interesting ways to think about God, namely that God is outside all time and space, and that God doesn't need anything or change in any way. He does not "choose to act" because that would imply that he needs something or changed somehow. It's just that people have to anthropomorphize their idea of God to have it make sense at all.

Read Olaf Stapledon's "Starmaker". Something tells me he communicated with somebody above and beyond when he wrote this book, which is science fiction but deals with issues of deity, belief and religious projection. The last chapters are profound.

Book is non-denominational.

Random aside, the sacred text site has a lot of interesting stuff.. some good, some obscure, some completly whacked out.

PeopleUnited says

5. Humans are not innately good. Adam, Eve, and all their descendants have chosen to rebel against their Creator. Rebellion against God is the definition of evil.

I'm gonna respectfully disagree with you. We can choose goodness, which was the plan from the onset.

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 1:26 KJVAAE
https://bible.com/bible/546/gen.1.26.KJVAAE

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Genesis 1:31 KJVAAE
https://bible.com/bible/546/gen.1.31.KJVAAE


So God clearly made us good. We are called to be a reflection of God's goodness, but often fall short. We know what happens thereafter.

Personally I often wonder if God, being good, never conceived that man would choose evil. Clearly he had second thoughts about his creation.

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Genesis 6:5 KJVAAE
https://bible.com/bible/546/gen.6.5.KJVAAE

And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Genesis 6:7 KJVAAE
https://bible.com/bible/546/gen.6.7.KJVAAE

GreaterNYCDude says

PeopleUnited says

5. Humans are not innately good. Adam, Eve, and all their descendants have chosen to rebel against their Creator. Rebellion against God is the definition of evil.

I'm gonna respectfully disagree with you. We can choose goodness, which was the plan from the onset.

Yes, there is the sin nature that mares creation, but it is still God who creates, and He still does so in His image. Man is not evil, he is fallen. Only Satan and demons are truly evil. We can choose to do evil, but it goes against who we were created to be, even in a fallen state. And most men, given a choice, choose to do right.

Shaman says

God is a software architect

That’s a good analogy. He certainly did write the code and can make adjustments as needed. Plus He knows time only as another dimension so everything has already happened from His perspective.

But I don’t see life as a test, it is rather a prelude to eternity. The meaning of life is simply to honor or reject the Creator. Some might call that a test, but it is more of a revelation than a test. Your life reveals who you are. You either honor God or you rebel against Him.

There may be NPC’s (seeds of Satan planted after the fall of Adam and Eve, who grow up in the same earth/soil as everyone else, but never are able to repent and believe) but how could we know for certain if someone is irredeemable? The modern day myth/example is fictional but a picture nonetheless of redemption. When Anakin turned to the dark side he lived off of fear, anger and hate. Many would say he was irredeemable. But in his last moments Darth Vader let go of those and decided to defend life and liberty, giving his own life to save his son. The bulk of his life was spent on evil (you might argue he did evil out of love for his mom, wife, kids, country) but yet he repented. Just as with Vader it is basically impossible for us to know who can or will be saved. (But if you grow horns and shave your teeth into razors like Darth Maul it is not looking good as far as redemption prospects ;)

Another way to look at life is if a person is not motivated by love, they probably are rebelling against their Creator. God is love. Even the evil that happens brings an opportunity to practice love.

@ GreaterNYCDude

The last few verses you posted clearly say that from Gods perspective every human has chosen evil. He even called Peter Satan when Peter tried to talk Jesus out of doing what God wanted him to do. My point is that Gods perspective (the only one that matters) depicts the descendants of Adam and Eve as evil.

PeopleUnited says

@ PeopleUnited

Fair distinction.

Thankfully, Jesus reconciles us back to the God who made us.

Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
Luke 23:34 KJVAAE
https://bible.com/bible/546/luk.23.34.KJVAAE

Sums it up nicley.

NuttBoxer says

And most men, given a choice, choose to do right.

The Narrow Gate
(Luke 13:22-30)

13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

The scripture teaches that most people will never leave the path that leads to destruction. Most people choose evil (evil is not what most people think it is, it is simply rebellion against God).

NuttBoxer says

Only Satan and demons are truly evil.

And yet God promises to punish people who reject him with the same punishment as Satan and his minions.
Matthew 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Yes sacred-texts.com is an amazing website. I thank God for allowing me to read it. I fear they will take it down someday. The people in charge of this world want a monopoly on everything, including these kinds of texts. They don't want people reading, for example Pontius Pilate's letters; any supporting documents that are not scriptures. The fact Archeologists in Egypt discovered a period of bricks without straw that coincides with the Bible etc. Videos showing the location of Sodom and Gomorrah with sulphur balls like rain. The purity lab testing of this rain, the melted structures, ashes etc. This is the best video I could find on that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhTjEbNgTQM

The other video from the 1990's was the original and best. Here is part of it but I can't find the rest ..

original link
They are leaving out the best parts. The original video is 1 hour I think.

But in order to understand these things, people must read the Bible and get grounded because the orbiting texts require a lens of discernment. Some texts are very good. Others are certainly ancient scriptures and should be included in the Bible. Especially because they are directly referenced in the Bible (i.e. "is it not written in the book of _ "). But others are obvious frauds. Satan is always mixing in lies with the truth. When NDE experiences starting coming out on the internet there was a general theme. Now there are all kinds of liars and false prophets like Mary K Baxter and little children who's parents put them up to making crazy NDE stories online that don't fit in with the similarities of real NDEs.

Some introductions (Preambles) of the sacred-texts seem to talk about the earliest known originals... or try to date when the text was originally written when in most cases, we don't know when the text was originally written because texts were painstakingly copied by hand, usually by monks. Therefore it's entirely possible some of these texts were written 5,6,7 thousand years ago because there is no original. And you have to allow for some human error. For example the forgotten books of Eden.

But on scared texts website, someone needs to be well grounded in the Bible, because many of the texts are gems of truth - others total frauds. Satan always mixes in chaff to obscure the truth. Always.

Jordan Peterson discussing Old Testament stories (including Sodom and Gomorrah) with a drunken Bill Maher. Recommend the whole interview. Maher's affection for Peterson as a fellow old fashioned liberal is touching.
https://rumble.com/v31vdwe-bill-maher-jordan-peterson-club-random.html?start=3907

Lol, Maher does sound a bit soused there.

EBGuy says

Jordan Peterson discussing Old Testament stories (including Sodom and Gomorrah) with a drunken Bill Maher. Recommend the whole interview. Maher's affection for Peterson as a fellow old fashioned liberal is touching.
https://rumble.com/v31vdwe-bill-maher-jordan-peterson-club-random.html?start=3907

observation here…you guys notice how bill maher doesn’t get “cancelled” for saying things that would get everyone else canned? clubby nature if cancel culture.

FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden says

observation here…you guys notice how bill maher doesn’t get “cancelled” for saying things that would get everyone else canned? clubby nature if cancel culture.

Yeah, I don't think any tiny hat has been cancelled.

I am a lifelong atheist but I figure that is because I was raised in that environment. I often tease my devout Adventist pal that if he had been born in SLC or Islamabad he would 'believe' something else entirely. I do pay attention to Super Smart People though and many extremely smart people believe in God. One of the most recent that I have observed is Chris Langan who is purported to have one of the highest IQ's currently and is completely unschooled (un-indoctrinated). He spends a lot of time with the GOD concept and he thinks that there IS a God and that you must 'accept him' in order too 'join him' in eternity, so to speak. This bummed me out because I always thought I could slide by in that I have lead a pretty good life in the way of not having robbed much and not killed at all.
I find him interesting because Lefty Atheists think that BELIEF is for the deplorable's, not somebody way fucking smarter than them.
https://rumble.com/v18ff7w-chris-langan-on-iq-the-singularity-free-will-psychedelics-ctmu-and-god.html

EBGuy says

drunken Bill Maher

I never cared one way or another about Maher other than I never found him funny. BUT he didn't bend the knee to the Totalitarian Jabbers and that, more than anything else these days, makes him part of my team. It pervades my feelings about everything, I don't give AF about tennis but I LOVE Djokovic. I have a newfound respect for Ice Cube and I now hate Neil Young. It is a permanent line dividing everybody for me now.

I feel the same way.

The biggest risk to humanity is the sea of compliant idiots who just do whatever the "authorities" tell them to.

Robert Sproul says

EBGuy says

drunken Bill Maher

I never cared one way or another about Maher other than I never found him funny. BUT he didn't bend the knee to the Totalitarian Jabbers and that, more than anything else these days, makes him part of my team. It pervades my feelings about everything, I don't give AF about tennis but I LOVE Djokovic. I have a newfound respect for Ice Cube and I now hate Neil Young. It is a permanent line dividing everybody for me now.

^^^^^^THIS

In a way, the scamdemic revealed that a lot of what I suspected about most people or human nature in general is actually true. I previously came to the revelation that life is high school, or high school never ends. What the scamdemic further revealed is that most people are flying on autopilot - they don't know why they do what they do, or at least they don't think about it. None of their behavior stands up to any kind of logical or rational scrutiny, and when you bring that up, they get really defensive and angry. In other words, most people are sheeple, ripe for exploitation by dark triad parasites.

stereotomy says

most people are sheeple

Correct. Humans are pack animals with most members of the herd lining up behind a leader to follow. People herd up behind political parties and even sports teams - logic is not involved. In my opinion, a leader is someone who is able to get the herd members to forgo their own individual self-interest and instead work for the best interest of the leader. There are some leaders who will work for what is best for the herd, but too many just exploit. Politicos like Biden, Shiff, and Pelosi likely just figure they may as well exploit the herd, because if they don't someone else will. Even leaders that start off wanting to help the herd may tire of being altruistic when too many herd members betray them and line up behind the exploiters.

One question:

Whatever your beliefs happen to be, upon what authority do you base them upon?

Robert Sproul says

This bummed me out because I always thought I could slide by in that I have lead a pretty good life in the way of not having robbed much and not killed at all.

This is the most common belief most people have. The problem is God is perfect(without sin). He cannot be with anyone who has sin. But nobodies perfect so we're all screwed.
This is where Jesus comes in. He was God and man. Sinless, but He died like a sinner, and His sacrifice covered our sin. That's how we slide in. Accept Christ's free gift of salvation. So you're not that far off, but you need some help. We can't do it on our own.

RayAmerica says

Whatever your beliefs happen to be, upon what authority do you base them upon?

God's, but the specific measure is the Bible, our relationship with God(it's active, meaning He does communicate things to us), and the sense morality He imbued us with.

Patrick says

I feel the same way.

The biggest risk to humanity is the sea of compliant idiots who just do whatever the "authorities" tell them to.

same as it ever was

GreaterNYCDude says

What of Religous leaders who have been deified by their followers? (Muhammad, Jesus, Budah, etc.)

Which one is the only one with an empty tomb? By the way, the Bible declares Jesus to be God, and that had nothing to do with his 'followers.'

What about religious leaders who have been murdered by their countrymen? I think Jesus may be the only one.

NuttBoxer says

Robert Sproul says

This bummed me out because I always thought I could slide by in that I have lead a pretty good life in the way of not having robbed much and not killed at all.

This is the most common belief most people have. The problem is God is perfect(without sin). He cannot be with anyone who has sin. But nobodies perfect so we're all screwed.
This is where Jesus comes in. He was God and man. Sinless, but He died like a sinner, and His sacrifice covered our sin. That's how we slide in. Accept Christ's free gift of salvation. So you're not that far off, but you need some help. We can't do it on our own.

This is all just misplaced faith that you've been brainwashed into but you speak about it with certainty. It's like a disease being spread and your the spreader.

How can you not see this?

richwicks says

you've been brainwashed into

Yeah, but we are ALL 'brainwashed' into some particular rationale. Throughout human history a creation myth and belief in a deity was nearly universal.
When I was an Irritable Atheist I realized that it was just another type of 'faith' because I was supposed to 'believe' in the Big Bang and WTF did I 'know' about the Big Bang?
And now the BB is losing favor with some astrophysicists, what am I supposed to 'believe' now?

Robert Sproul says

And now the BB is losing favor with some astrophysicists, what am I supposed to 'believe' now?

Trust the science!


The scientists are never wrong, until it is discovered they were never really scientific at all.

NuttBoxer says

What about religious leaders who have been murdered by their countrymen? I think Jesus may be the only one.

Actually the Romans killed Jesus. But the Jews cheered for His execution. And ultimately He was killed as a sacrifice for our sins. So we are all complicit in His death. The thing is He is not a religious leader. He is God. A religious leader seeks to show people the way of salvation, but Jesus Christ is the way of salvation. I’m convinced that God hates religion, it always gets in the way of truly doing Gods will. Saul who became Paul is the prime example. Paul realized his true calling when he gave up his religion.