patrick.net

Here's what their revised Charter from 2017 says (10 years after Soros article):

2. Palestine, which extends from the River Jordan in the east to the
Mediterranean in the west and from Ras Al-Naqurah in the north to Umm
Al-Rashrash in the south, is an integral territorial unit. It is the land and
the home of the Palestinian people. The expulsion and banishment of the
Palestinian people from their land and the establishment of the Zionist
entity therein do not annul the right of the Palestinian people to their
entire land and do not entrench any rights therein for the usurping
Zionist entity.
...
18. The following are considered null and void: the Balfour Declaration,
the British Mandate Document, the UN Palestine Partition Resolution,
and whatever resolutions and measures that derive from them or are
similar to them. The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and
contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes
against their will and the will of the Ummah; it is also in violation of
human rights that are guaranteed by international conventions, foremost
among them is the right to self-determination.
19. There shall be no recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity.
Whatever has befallen the land of Palestine in terms of occupation,
settlement building, Judaization or changes to its features or falsification
of facts is illegitimate. Rights never lapse.
20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be
compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances
and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas
rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine,
from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of
the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas
considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent
Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of
June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their
homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national
consensus.
21. Hamas affirms that the Oslo Accords and their addenda contravene
the governing rules of international law in that they generate
commitments that violate the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people.
Therefore, the Movement rejects these agreements and all that flows
from them, such as the obligations that are detrimental to the interests
of our people, especially security coordination (collaboration).

https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/hamas-2017.pdf

What's there to negotiate about, except unconditional surrender?

Patrick says

I think that Islam could suddenly collapse if enough people stood up and told the truth about it.

This is why Muslims murder people who tell the truth about Islam. They are afraid of the collapse of Islam.

Every religion is false. Christianity has basically collapsed because people spent the last 2 decades telling the truth about it. It's not hard to attack the nuttiness of the Bible unless EVERYTHING is a parable.

richwicks says

Patrick says

I think that Islam could suddenly collapse if enough people stood up and told the truth about it.

This is why Muslims murder people who tell the truth about Islam. They are afraid of the collapse of Islam.

Every religion is false. Christianity has basically collapsed because people spent the last 2 decades telling the truth about it. It's not hard to attack the nuttiness of the Bible unless EVERYTHING is a parable.

Do Indonesian Muslims have the same hots for exterminating the Joos? How about Albanian? Crimean Tatars? I could be wrong, but I never heard about them being hot and bothered about it.

The first minister of Scotland announced that the country is willing to be the first nation to accept refugees from Gaza and would be a "sanctuary" in what he hopes would be a "worldwide refugee scheme.

"

... "and we have millions of sheep", added the minister.

Eric Holder says

Do Indonesian Muslims have the same hots for exterminating the Joos? How about Albanian? Crimean Tatars? I could be wrong, but I never heard about them being hot and bothered about it.

I don't know, but the Indonesians had a small genocide a few years ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_1965%E2%80%9366

Well, maybe it was more of a genocide attempt. There was a film about it called The Act of Killing.

I think the problem in the Middle East, is that most Israelis are seen as invaders from Russia and Europe, because they are, and they don't allow unfettered access to holy sites for either Christians or Muslims.

People really don't know what Israel does. They've burned churches down multiple times there.

Eric Holder says

Do Indonesian Muslims have the same hots for exterminating the Joos? How about Albanian? Crimean Tatars? I could be wrong, but I never heard about them being hot and bothered about it.

The further removed from Islamic teaching, the more tolerant Muslims are.

It's the true believers you have to watch out for. They take the Koran and Hadith literally and are very quick to murder people just like Mohammed did.

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/muhammad/life-of-muhammad.aspx

Christianity has collapsed because it betrayed its principles, not because people told the “truth”. You can’t have a religion that claims to be following the will of the an ultimate being of Truth and Justice and then just claim this being just wants you to be happy so do whatever you want. In other words relativism has done all sorts of damage to the church.

The Muslims aren’t dumb enough to fall for that shit. Try telling them you can’t judge someone for being gay and they’ll laugh themselves silly as they throw you off a roof.

People want a moral code. It gives their lives purpose and makes them feel part of a group. Islam does an excellent job of providing this.

pudil says

Christianity has collapsed because it betrayed its principles, not because people told the “truth”.

I don't want to rehash this much, but there was very active atheism on the Internet for about 15 years, because Christians were getting threatening and annoying, or at least enough of them were vocal enough, forceful enough, that people pushed back.

Remember the "Amazing Atheist"? He's irrelevant now, because - well, they won.

This was a result of pushing Creationism in schools, and it really took off when George W. Bush called for "a crusade" in the Iraq war.

pudil says

People want a moral code. It gives their lives purpose and makes them feel part of a group. Islam does an excellent job of providing this.

This is true.

But Islam is also a cage from which it is very hard to escape. Your own family and friends may murder you if you even try, exactly as Islam instructs them to do.

What about Sikhism as a replacement for Islam? At least you can leave without fear of getting murdered.

richwicks says

Blue says

Forget Israel, NO Islamic country allow a single Palestinian into their country - ever. Don't you think, there has to be a strong reason why!!

This isn't correct. This is the Palestinian diaspora.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_diaspora#Population_figures

They are all over the place, but they are in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Qatar, Kuwait, Iraq, Yemen, Libya, Algeria, and many other nations that are not predominately Muslim.

So does, the Islamic Jihad spreads all over including Latin American now!
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/oct/31/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-latest-news-today-hamas-clashes-idf-gaza-aid-plan-failure

Or, Israel is a US Vassal State. That UN Veto is much more important than the $3B/yr

My point is only that AIPAC has undue influence.

Eric Holder says

What's there to negotiate about, except unconditional surrender?

Exactly. Paleban defenders "Forget" that the UN already approved an Israeli State, but the Palestinians refused to negotiate ANYTHING. They rejected so much as a few miles around Tel Aviv as a Jewish city-state. They keep starting wars and getting defeated but still want "River to Sea".

There was never an Arab Palestinian state in all history, not a one. There is no 'occupied' territory because there is no state that was occupied. Jordan illegally annexed Judea and Samaria in 1947 lacking both a causus belli or international approval, expelled the Jews in 1948, but lost physical control in 1967, and released it's claims in 1981. There is only 'disputed' territory, big difference.

Levantine Arabs have 4 states: Jordan, Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon. The vast majority of Palestinians are decended from either Bosnians brought in around 1890-1900 by the Ottomans to repopulize the almost empty Vilayets of Akko, Nablus, etc. (the Ottomans didn't have a Palestine as a province, either) or Syrians and Egyptians that came when the Zionists began building factories and draining wetlands for farms for work. Most of the native Arabs, the Bedouin, are 90% pro-Israel because Israel treated them better than any Turk or Arab Fellahin (city dweller).

As for Palestinians, Gulf Arabs have long tired of them. Kuwaiti Palestinians helped Saddam invade in 1991. Lebanese Palestinians started the Civil War there when they were kicked out of Jordan for trying to Coup the state and remove the King and Parliament for PLO rule. Syria keeps Palestinians in Ghettos because they have a habit of fomenting insurrection. Egypt has a 3-layer wall with Gaza that's closed tight 99% of the time, because everytime Egypt opens it for a few days, a few weeks later Pyramid or Red Sea resorts tourists are getting shot and planes getting bombed, what a coincidence.

Oh, and when Egypt discovers Hamas tunnels under their wall with Gaza, the Egyptians don't pump sea water into them. They pump sewage.

Attempting to Judaize Palestinians is a good idea, but Islam is so ferocious against conversion FROM Islam, it would probably start a holy war for real.

Nearly impossible to convert muslims

Only because they all feel the threat of violence from other Muslims.

But if a significant number escape Islam without getting killed, I think a huge wave would follow.

Blue says

So does, the Islamic Jihad spreads all over including Latin American now!
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/oct/31/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-latest-news-today-hamas-clashes-idf-gaza-aid-plan-failure

I guess. Just remember that Israel created this problem.

AmericanKulak says

Exactly. Paleban defenders "Forget" that the UN already approved an Israeli State, but the Palestinians refused to negotiate ANYTHING

First, the UN violated the right of self determination in UN Resolution 181 which created Israel. The Jewish population was a minority at the time, and the Arabs were the majority in the region. The majority of Arabs opposed partition, and the majority of Jews favored it, yet the Arab population was ignored.

Second, the Palestinians regularly negotiate, it's Israel that refuses to do it. What was the "generous offer" given to the Palestinians in the 1990's? Nobody knows, because it's not a generous offer and it's kept secret. It's just a claim. Hamas has offered, repeatedly, to return the hostages, of a ceasefire and it's Israel that refuses to do that. Did you know they offered this? We really do not have a press.

AmericanKulak says

There was never an Arab Palestinian state in all history, not a one.

There was never an Israel. There's no mention of it in Roman, Egyptian or Greek historical documents. The entire "state" is Jewish mythology. Name a king of Israel. Find a map of Israel at any time before 1948.

Palestine is a place, like Northern NY or the Donbass, they aren't states either, but people live there.

AmericanKulak says

Levantine Arabs have 4 states: Jordan, Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon. The vast majority of Palestinians are decended from either Bosnians brought in around 1890-1900 by the Ottomans to repopulize the almost empty Vilayets of Akko,

This isn't true. The people of Palestine have been there for 100's of years, under the Ottoman Empire. The Crusades were part of an attempt to recapture the land for Christians.

AmericanKulak says

As for Palestinians, Gulf Arabs have long tired of them. Kuwaiti Palestinians helped Saddam invade in 1991. Lebanese Palestinians started the Civil War there when they were kicked out of Jordan for trying to Coup the state and remove the King and Parliament for PLO rule.

Won't argue this. The Sunni and Shia are stupid and mortal enemies. They hate each other more than anybody else.

richwicks says

Name a king of Israel.

Solomon.

Patrick says

richwicks says

Name a king of Israel.

Solomon.

Outside of the Torah.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon

Solomon also called Jedidiah, was a monarch of ancient Israel and the son and successor of King David, according to the Hebrew Bible or Old Testament.

EVERYTHING about Israeli "history" is based on the Torah / Bible. As far as I know, there are no historical records of an Israeli state ever existing prior to 1948. I could be wrong in this, but I've never seen it. I think that Israel is about as real as Camelot.

In time, it will become established "fact" that Israel was initially a land without a people for a people without a land. We've seen this kind of junk in our lifetime. The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor for no reason at all, the US was neutral in the war - or so it's taught. The US Civil War was fought over slavery, not taxation. We went to war against Vietnam because of the Gulf of Tonkin Incident. We constantly create mythologies.

Patrick says

richwicks says

Name a king of Israel.

Solomon.

The most superficial examination reveals there are several independently verified by archeaology, including mentions by their enemies, which is the best kind of independent verification possible, being named by the opponents contemporary to your existence:


Then there are chieftains dating all the way back to the Pharaoh Akenhaten (~1300BC):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labaya
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdi-Heba

As well as the Haiburu, shephards who lived between settled states in Israel/Canaan.

@richwicks The Romans waged a war against ancient Israel, and there are non-Jewish records of that.

You could argue that Israel ceased to exist as a distinct country after the Romans destroyed the temple in 70 AD, but there is a ton of evidence that it did exist as a country before that point.

https://www.britannica.com/event/Siege-of-Jerusalem-70

Judea was a client Kingdom of the Romans in many ways similar to Armenian Client Kings of Rome/Parthia, and indeed the Book of Daniel is prophecy that the "Eagle" will (Romans) over come the Greeks (Seluecids)

The Roman Arch of Titus commemorated the Roman defeat of Israel, and even includes an image of a menorah taken from the temple:

AmericanKulak says

Judea was a client Kingdom of the Romans

You're right, the Romans called the area Judea and it was under Roman rule already by that point.

Dawson and the rest of the Repeater Gang aren't great sources for Ancient History. Or Modern, for that matter. Hama early 1980s probably doesn't get discussed, nor the Church of the Redeemer in Ain el-Rummaneh, a suburb of Beirut being gunned up by the PLO.

When Christian Militias began setting up roadblocks to identify and disarm Palestinians refugees in Beirut who arrived after being kicked out of Jordan for trying to topple the King of Jordan, the Lebanese Civil War began. Palestinians were forbidden to bear arms as refugees, and many were illegal and not supposed to be in Lebanon at all. The Muh Assad the Very Great Lion got involved on the side of the Palestinians.

Also, Judea wasn't the only area to be ethnically cleansed by the Romans for revolt. And it was done again under Hadrian.

There's another one. Try to find any reference to "Dacia" on a map or in modern discussion. You can't, because it was turned into...(fill in the blank) and it's inhabitants speak a derivative of Latin!

Finally, the Arabs celebrate Yarmouk, which is a crossing near the Dan River where they beat a hastily put together Byzantine Army and were able to occupy Syria, Israel, and Egypt as a result. Literally celebrating their Battle of Cajamarca or Conquest of Tenochtitlan, which proves who the invaders were, since they admit and celebrate it themselves.

Patrick says

richwicks The Romans waged a war against ancient Israel, and there are non-Jewish records of that.

You could argue that Israel ceased to exist as a distinct country after the Romans destroyed the temple in 70 AD, but there is a ton of evidence that it did exist as a country before that point.

https://www.britannica.com/event/Siege-of-Jerusalem-70

I'm not arguing that Jerusalem didn't exist, it's an ancient city. I'm saying I don't believe ISRAEL existed. They are conflating a people with a nation.

I'll need to read more. The existence of Israel, if it did exist, was at best, fleeting. Lasting under 100 years in eternal conflict.

RWSGFY says

This sounds like something a card-carrying member of BLM would say.

"They dindu nuffin, how dare police shoot at them!"

This sounds like something a deep state neo-con would say. "We must bomb those women and children our they will grow up and become terrorists!"