patrick.net

RayAmerica says

You'll need to read Paul's epistles to the Galatians and much of Romans in order to interpret WHO that verse is actually describing)

No one replaced the genetic descendants of Abraham. Read Revelation it will prove it to you.

RayAmerica says

Not one comment on the above history of the modern secular/political movement of modern day Zionism. I wonder why that is?

Because you're starting at the end, and we're starting at the beginning and why.

I guess the Greeks were bad for seeking to take their land back against the Ottomans in the 19th because they last time THEY ruled themselves was in the last century BC or so.

The descendants of Abraham in which the blessings were bestowed were on the REMNANT of the faithful, not on the disobedient that were merely the physical 'seed' of Abraham. Had they been the spiritual seed of Abraham, which is that they were believers in God's truth, they would have known who Jesus was, precisely what Jesus was declaring in the following exchange between him and physical 'seed:'

37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

The two of you are believing Dispensationalist theory that was invented in the 19th. Century, which elevates the non-believing, Christ rejecting Jewish people, above the true children of God, which are those, both Jew and Gentile alike, that are found in Christ.

From Galatians chapter 3:

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

And ...

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The New Testament interprets and defines the meaning of much of the Old Testament. That is exactly what is being declared in the above Bible passages. It is defining who the true children of Abraham are, and it is not physical, unbelieving Israel. It is clearly defined as those that are in Christ.

RayAmerica says

The descendants of Abraham in which the blessings were bestowed were on the REMNANT of the faithful,

RayAmerica says

and it is not physical, unbelieving Israel. It is clearly defined as those that are in Christ.

That makes no sense.

"For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" and the context is clearly in reference to the literal seed of Abraham.



It makes no sense in the "Church is Israel context".

"The Church, you yourselves are enemies of the Gospel. But They, which is really the Church of you Yourselves, are saved for the sake of the Patriarchs"?

"A partial hardening has come upon them, which is you the Church whom I'm also talking to? To make you, the Church believers jealous of themselves, since you are also Israel?"

So the Church is the enemy of the Gospel, but saved for the OT Patriarchs sake?

That's far from a plain reading, and one hell of a tendentious twisting.

Kulak,

I noticed that you didn't address the BIBLE passages above which clearly defines that the SEED of Abraham are those that are found in Christ.

When the Jews professed that THEY were the seed of Abraham to Christ, what was HIS response? He clearly was defining the seed as those that are of faith, not of those that are merely the physical seed.

Do I understand that you are saying that ALL JEWS, whether they are believers in Christ or not, are all saved?

RayAmerica says

I noticed that you didn't address the BIBLE passages above which clearly defines that the SEED of Abraham are those that are found in Christ.

Absolutely not. Go earlier in Romans for the Context, Romans 11:1-2 (NKJV):

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him?https://app.logos.com/books/LLS%3AKJV1900/references/bible%2Bkjv.66.11.1?registration_source_host=biblia.com

ESV for comparison:
11 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham,[a] a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+11%3A1-2&version=ESV

The Chapter STARTS with Paul addressing the Church when talking about the literal descendents - like himself - of Abraham.

Let me ask you a question - What tribe of Israel are you in? Benjamin? Judah?

Furthermore, what is the point of the story of the grafted on wild branch and the natural branches if not to contrast the Church in Christ with Physical Israel?

Romans 11 only makes sense if Israel means the physical Seed of Abraham, and "You" and "Grafted on wild olive branches" and "Church" means those in Christ.

You are choosing to completely ignore Paul's writings in Galatians (and Romans) as stated above, and, you've ignored the discourse between 'Abraham's seed' and Christ in John chapter 8.

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” - Gal. 3:28

What Paul is clearly saying is that the Jews are NOT cut off from Christ, but they are not in a higher position just because they were born Jews, as the verse above clearly declares.

Do you believe that ALL Jews are saved? Yes or No?

RayAmerica says

What Paul is clearly saying is that the Jews are NOT cut off from Christ, but they are not in a higher position just because they were born Jews, as the verse above clearly declares.

Paul is saying that Jews are PARTIALLY hardened until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, and then all of Israel will be saved.

It also warns Church members not to treat Jews with arrogance or hardness, lest they upset the Lord.

Because in the OT, except for very few exceptions (such as Rahab the harlot), salvation, via the prophets and the word, along with God's sovereign grace, was only made available to the Jews.

When the Jews predominantly rejected Christ as Messiah, God's grace was then also extended to the Gentiles. Both Jews and Gentiles equally need Christ, without which there is no real hope for anyone.

RayAmerica says

Do you believe that ALL Jews are saved? Yes or No?

Not what I think, it's what Jesus revealed to Paul.

It's literally, and in plain words, in the chapter I posted above.

Again, are you saying that that verse means that ALL ISRAEL, including those that reject Christ, will all be saved?

RayAmerica says

Again, are you saying that that verse means that ALL ISRAEL, including those that reject Christ, will all be saved?

Paul says the current members of the Church whom he is directly speaking to were consigned to disobedience so that they might be saved, and so "They" (who is clearly not those in the Church whom he just addressed) - might be shown mercy and ALL will be saved.

He comes out and says it bluntly.

He also says they will be saved for the sake of the promises made to the Patriarch, and God's Words are irrevokable. Even though for now they are enemies of the Gospel. He can't say it plainer.

From Romans Chapter 9:

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

CLEARLY defines who "Israel" is, and, states emphatically that "not all Israel ... are Israel."

So, the 'all Israel shall be saved' is defined by the above!

This is why "Jews are cursed" websites and tweets avoid Romans, because if they mention it and people look it up, without the Replacement heretic trying to trick the plain meaning, they'll see the plain truth of the Mystery God revealed to Paul.

If "not all Israel ... is Israel," WHO is the Israel that shall ALL BE SAVED? It is the Israel of FAITH, and NOT the Children of the flesh.

I have news for you friend ... what I am declaring to be true is backed up by orthodox Christian doctrine that was 'replaced' by the fiction, invented primarily by John Nelson Darby, and made popular by the Scofield Reference Bible notes. Prior to that, Dispensationalist doctrines cannot be found anywhere in orthodox Christian writings or commentaries, going back all the way to the earliest writings and throughout history. It is a modern day invention, pure and simple.

What I find interesting is that Dispensationalism has always been scorned upon by European Christians, including, Charles Spurgeon, who viewed it as modern day heresy.

RayAmerica says

From Romans Chapter 9:

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

CLEARLY defines who "Israel" is, and, states emphatically that "not all Israel ... are Israel."

So, the 'all Israel shall be saved' is defined by the above!

Excellent! This Paul explaining that God will save whom he wants, and not according to the expectations of Men. It goes on to talk of Esau, who was given his own inheritance despite being the Eldest, for it was God's Sovereign Will. That is what 9:7 means.

However, in Romans 11 Paul clearly explains - and the OT shows repeatedly - that for the Sake of the Patriarchs, the Seed of Abraham will be saved in the end.

I suspect that is that the partial hardening will be lifted, and we see in modern times more Jews converting than any time since the days of Jesus.

RayAmerica says

I have news for you friend ... what I am declaring to be true is backed up by orthodox Christian doctrine

You mean back when the Bible was unavailable to most, and to be read only under "Guidance" of Middle Men.

The plain meaning of the Word trumps any Theologian's take.

RayAmerica says

What I find interesting is that Dispensationalism has always been scorned upon by European Christians, including, Charles Spurgeon, who viewed it as modern day heresy.

Many had Indentity a mile wide and an inch deep, but it's men like Spurgeon who lit a strong fire in many men.

But you claimed that "all Israel shall be saved," when Paul writes that "all Israel is not Israel."

Again, clearly Paul is declaring that the "Israel" that he is referring to are those that are of faith, and that those that are NOT of faith, are NOT ISRAEL. Only those that are in Christ are the Children of God ... period.

RayAmerica says

Again, clearly Paul is declaring that the "Israel" that he is referring to are those that are of faith, and that those that are NOT of faith, are NOT ISRAEL. Only those that are in Christ are the Children of God ... period.

No, because he just said that they are saved for the sake of the Patriarchs.

And, he's contrasting the Church members with whom he is addressing, with a "They" that is the descendents of Abraham

"They are beloved for the sake of their Forefathers"

Who is "They" here? It's physical descendents of Abraham.

When will the partial hardening end? When the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Kulak,

You are way off base on this. Paul, and Christ in John 8, are making it perfectly clear that the true seed of Abraham is found in Christ alone.

You can believe what you want. That is your right.

RayAmerica says

You can believe what you want. That is your right.

Yes, we're in disagreement here.

I think we can agree that the most important part is to have Faith in Jesus.

I just would point out, not to rekindle or worry the argument, but in earnest burning to mention it, one extra factor in the point I made above:
AmericanKulak says

"They are beloved for the sake of their Forefathers"

Is "spiritual Israel" or the Church beloved for the sake of Abraham and Jacob? Why would a Moro or Igbo or Frank be beloved because of Abraham or Jacob? They would be saved by their Faith in the Mosiach, as would a Christ-believing Jew. More evidence Paul must be refering to the Physical Seed of Israel.

RayAmerica says

The New Testament interprets and defines the meaning of much of the Old Testament.

Just read revelation it proves the end of all the promises of Genesis, Daniel and Jesus.

AmericanKulak says

This is why "Jews are cursed" websites and tweets avoid Romans, because if they mention it and people look it up, without the Replacement heretic trying to trick the plain meaning, they'll see the plain truth of the Mystery God revealed to Paul.

Well said. Paul himself disproves the replacement crowd with his writings.

PeopleUnited says

It’s one giant circle jerk where Zionists are the cause of all of our problems. Gee where have we heard that one before?

They complain they keep being thrown out of nations and they are absolutely blameless victims.

You know this is ridiculous. There's a problem with their culture and they haven't addressed it in 100s of years

What they are doing in Gaza now will hurt them for centuries and the descendants will have to deal with it and they will say that what Israel did wasn't wrong. That's an error.

Was what Europeans did to the Natives wrong? Was slavery wrong? White people are made to feel so guilty over last horrors, is that a trait within the Jewish culture?

I can't change the past but look at the present. We can change that, but slaves are so habitual. In time you will discover you were on the wrong moral side it's obvious you are. The side that creates propaganda and lies is always in the wrong to do it.

RayAmerica says

Jews did not kill Jesus – US House of Representatives

So this was never actually said by the House right? Just a hook for the OP?

GOP lawmakers, conservative influencers slam ‘insane’ Antisemitism Awareness Act, warn it could silence Christians

Christians aren't 'antisemitic' for saying Jewish leaders helped get Jesus killed, Daily Wire commentator Ben Shapiro said.

Shapiro, an Orthodox Jew and Harvard University law school grad, said the bill is “obviously unconstitutionally vague,” on his show Thursday.

He also said the New Testament clearly said the Jews did hand over Jesus to Pontius Pilate to be killed. “Christians saying all that stuff [about Jewish leaders having Jesus killed], doesn’t make Christians antisemitic,” Shapiro said.

More here: https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/gop-lawmakers-conservative-influencers-slam-insane-antisemitism-awareness-act-warn-it-could-silence-christians/

NOTE: I am not a fan of Ben Shapiro, but on this issue, he is 100% correct, IMO.

RayAmerica says

NOTE: I am not a fan of Ben Shapiro, but on this issue, he is 100% correct, IMO.

He's controlled opposition. He just spent years extolling free speech, to fire Candice Owen because he disagrees with her view on Israel.

Does t actually have the principles he claims to have.

1 John Chapter 2:

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

This verse clearly describes that a person that denies Jesus as the Messiah is not only a liar, but an antichrist. What does Revelation say about liars?

" ... all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." - Revelation 21:8

So how do these verses fit with 'all Israel shall be saved?' They don't, but in fact describes those that deny Jesus as the Messiah as an antichrist, and also, that without Jesus they don't have the Father either!

NuttBoxer says

So this was never actually said by the House right? Just a hook for the OP?

All it does is enshrine TRUMP's EO 13899 into law.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/6090/text

On December 11, 2019, Executive Order 13899 extended protections against discrimination under the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to individuals subjected to antisemitism on college and university campuses and tasked Federal agencies to consider the IHRA Working Definition of Antisemitism when enforcing title VI of such Act.

(b) Constitutional Protections.—Nothing in this Act shall be construed to diminish or infringe upon any right protected under the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.

Passed the House of Representatives May 1, 2024.

And the 1A protections are built in.

Again, it's to stop the University Admins from using bullshit excuses like against Jewish Students and Faculty.

RayAmerica says

NOTE: I am not a fan of Ben Shapiro, but on this issue, he is 100% correct, IMO.

Shaprio has been consistent for almost a decade on being Anti Anti-White Propaganda:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHFj1jSnuM8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSXgySmO8Z8

Rightly dividing the word of truth. If the Holy Spirit is in you, He will guide you. If not, you will remain lost until God calls you out of darkness. But Gods promise of salvation to all who call upon Him does not replace the promises of God to Abraham’s physical descendants. They are the natural branches.

https://www.gotquestions.org/all-Israel-saved.html

The classic text (Romans 11:16–24) depicts Israel as distinct from the Church: the “natural branches” are the Jews, and the “wild branches” are the Gentiles. The “olive tree” is the collective people of God. The “natural branches” (Jews) are “cut off” the tree for unbelief, and the “wild branches” (believing Gentiles) are grafted in. This has the effect of making the Jews “jealous” and then drawing them to faith in Christ, so they might be “grafted in” again and receive their promised inheritance. The “natural branches” are still distinct from the “wild branches,” so that God’s covenant with His people is literally fulfilled. Romans 11:26–29, citing Isaiah 59:20–21; 27:9; Jeremiah 31:33–34, says:

“And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: ‘The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.’ As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.”

Here, Paul emphasizes the “irrevocable” nature of Israel’s calling as a nation (see also Romans 11:12). Isaiah predicted that a “remnant” of Israel would one day “be called the Holy People, the Redeemed of the LORD” (Isaiah 62:12). Regardless of Israel’s current state of unbelief, a future remnant will in fact repent and fulfill their calling to establish righteousness by faith (Romans 10:1–8; 11:5). This conversion will coincide with the fulfillment of Moses’ prediction of Israel’s permanent restoration to the land (Deuteronomy 30:1–10).