patrick.net

HeadSet says

Do 90% of the US population live in houses and not apartments (I actually do not know the stats)? An electric car is great if you have a home where you can install a Level 2 charger. If you live in an apartment with no Level 2 capability, you are limited to charging a Tesla soley at superchargers, which will greatly shorten the battery life. If you buy a Chevy Bolt (which I think is marketed toward apartment dwellers without home Level 2 access) it has circuitry to save the battery at L3 sites by limiting the charge power. That means 1.5 to 2 hours per stop to charge the Bolt on long trips. For around town, the Bolt would need 2 hours to charge for every 230 miles or so.

You are right - having a place to charge is definitely optimal if you want an EV. Not sure the percent of drivers that have access to home charging - maybe 60%?. I drive over a thousand miles a month and charge the Tesla about 2-3 times a week in my garage overnight.

I leased a Chevy Bolt for 3 years before I got my Tesla. The thing was a fun little hot hatch and perfect for my 50 mile roundtrip work commute, but terrible on road trips. Not only was the Bolt smaller, less comfortable with less storage than the Tesla, it took 3-4X as long to charge on unreliable non-Tesla super chargers. I took the family to Vegas in the Bolt once and it added about 90 minutes to our trip. Never again.

When we took the Tesla to Phoenix last month, we made it in the same amount of time it normally takes us in my wife's ICE car. But I was much more relaxed and rested in the Tesla letting autopilot do most of the driving with a smoother and more comfortable ride. We packed 4 roller bags, 4 backpacks, large cooler and a couple bags of groceries and Christmas presents and still had more room for storage and didn't use the frunk.

I don't know if all states have it, but here in IL we have MFT (motor fuel tax) as a percentage of gas pumped in your tank. They will come after EV's in the future. While they're not huge, they still cause wear and tear on infrastructure. This is an exaggeration, but say 20-30% of the population got EV's. That's a massive blow to that tax, yet there's more cars using the roads and not paying for it.

It's the wild west in that regards. They could easily do an extra EV tax as a line item on your electric bill to where the car is registered, milage tracking or even the creep GPS tracking method. Enjoy it now, but if you have those taxes for ICE vehicles, they're coming for EV's. If they do it as a percentage of electric bill, it could be more expensive to drive than gas as it would be based on whole home electric use. Or they make you install an EV charging meter.

I think EV's are fun to drive, but at some point on per mile basis the government will try to make EV's roughly the equivalent cost of a ICE "fuel" up. It actually could end up being more depending on how your state decides to tax it: https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/stateline/2022/10/10/as-electric-vehicles-shrink-gas-tax-revenue-more-states-may-tax-mileage

Fact is you cannot use the roads and basically pay little to nothing to use them. There is no bridge fairy, they have to be maintained. Roads don't repave themselves. All cars basically have GPS in them if bought in the last decade including all Teslas. I'd be getting a hybrid with an ICE if I needed to buy today and not full EV. My extra 2¢ novel on the topic. Greenies/Liberals will fight it, but the road building lobby is massively Conservative/Right leaning. We shall see, but methinks this prediction is coming soon to all states. EV's are going to be a case of liberal policies shooting themselves in the foot I think.

WookieMan says

Fact is you cannot use the roads and basically pay little to nothing to use them.

All roads outside of neighborhoods will become toll roads with all cars having a version of the automatic "EasyPass" to trip the charges.

I know the Hipsters will call me a Liar for saying so as they find some convoluted way to explain off their PG&E rate plan how their at home charging doesn't cost them.

Even if they don't have rooftop solar. Maybe even positive cash flow for them to charge their EV if they have rooftop solar, they'll argue. How the solar didn't cost them a thing to install (those are financed even if it's not called "financed"). They are soo smart, soo savvy, sooo Bay Area Silicon Valley Smug smarter and better than all the rest of us podunk folks.

Whatever.

My Prius prime gets 55 mpg in pure gasoline mode. I paid $3.799 this week for gasoline in San Jose. About 7 cents per mile.

According to the website, my Prius Prime will consume 0.25 kw-hr to travel one mile. Paid my PG&E bill last week, average cost was $0.40 per kwhr. This roughs out to 10 cents per mile, about 40% higher cost than gasoline.

And NO, I will not save $ with some kind of other "EV-charging-at-home" plan which sets punitively high rates for when not charging the EV. And this is for a small (sh*tbox) home with modest electricity use (no AC, no electric kitchen appliances, no electric heating, no using the clothes dryer except when it rains). And NO, I WILL NOT upload my PG&E bill to prove it. If you don't believe me, whatever.

We do get free charging at the workplace, which we use as often as we can get a charger (you gotta get up early in the morning to beat the others for that privilege!), but I don't think that factoid is an honest reply to your question.

I wonder about the 25 miles per 100 kw-hr benchmark. Is it true all the time, - like even in the cold weather?

Patrick says

the one on the bottom is cheaper, bigger profits. Seen this too many fucking times. And when you call them out on it, they spasm screaming "this is DIVERSITY you bigots".

B.A.C.A.H. says

My Prius prime gets 55 mpg in pure gasoline mode. I paid $3.799 this week for gasoline in San Jose. About 7 cents per mile.

Hybrids are the way to go. EV's are fun to drive for sure, but subsidies will stop and I don't know why anyone in their right might would pay $50k+ for a sedan or small SUV. Electric rates/charges will go up for EV cars registered to your house. Get a Honda or Toyota sedan and you're $25k in the green out the door. Over the life of an EV, you're not going to get that money back and you'll still need to charge it at your house for sure.

Even with high gas now, it's really not that bad. Both have tires and brakes. Wheel bearings. I've never heard of a modern ICE engine shitting out if you take care of it. Maybe cheap things like an alternator or starter, but it's not complicated with sealed transmission and most part easily making it 200k miles.

B.A.C.A.H. says

My Prius prime gets 55 mpg in pure gasoline mode. I paid $3.799 this week for gasoline in San Jose. About 7 cents per mile.
According to the website, my Prius Prime will consume 0.25 kw-hr to travel one mile. Paid my PG&E bill last week, average cost was $0.40 per kwhr. This roughs out to 10 cents per mile, about 40% higher cost than gasoline.
And NO, I will not save $ with some kind of other "EV-charging-at-home" plan which sets punitively high rates for when not charging the EV.

That was a pretty epic rant; hard to argue with anything you said. I'm afraid to look at my electric bill this month as I'm sure I'll be hitting that $.40 per kwhr (not a net positive solar producer during the winter). Pretty wild that EV-2A rate schedule is $.55 per kwHr PEAK (4-9pm). Yeah, no thanks. The California Dream is over (hello NEM-3 !). Irony is that folks with cheap electric rates ($.15 per kwhr) would do well (or at least better) with an EV.
That said, I'm California poor and may try to cash in on the $4k used EV federal tax credit. Just gotta find a dealer...

B.A.C.A.H. says

My Prius prime gets 55 mpg in pure gasoline mode. I paid $3.799 this week for gasoline in San Jose. About 7 cents per mile.

I don't have solar, but have the EV plan with SDG&E and pay $.14 kwh during super off-peak when I charge overnight. I get about 3.3 - 3.8 miles per kilowatt. So about 4 cents a mile.

Hybrids are great bridge vehicle to transition, but they are way more complex to build and maintain compared to a straight-up BEV. Obviously batteries are still massively expensive, but EV's have way less moving parts and components to wear out. No transmissions, oil changes, brake jobs etc....

Tesla continues to do amazing things driving down the price of batteries and getting more range. Imagine where we will be in another 10 years?

We don't need the government forcing this. EV adoption will happen on its own through market forces as EV's truly become superior in every way.

socal2 says

I don't have solar, but have the EV plan with SDG&E and pay $.14 kwh during super off-peak when I charge overnight. I get about 3.3 - 3.8 miles per kilowatt. So about 4 cents a mile.

Oh my! 81 cents per kwHr peak during the summer.


https://www.sdge.com/residential/pricing-plans/about-our-pricing-plans/electric-vehicle-plans

EBGuy says

Oh my! 81 cents per kwHr peak during the summer.

Thank God I don't have (or need) AC. I would be broke! As it is, I am always chasing after my kids turning off lights during On-Peak times. Ceiling fans running all night is not too bad.

We get the Super Off-Peak rate through 2:00PM on the weekends so we do all of our laundry on the weekends. We run the dishwasher at midnight too.

Since I went with this plan, my consumption went up over 20% but my bill went down a few bucks taking advantage of the lower rates at night.

EBGuy says

socal2 says

Oh my! 81 cents per kwHr peak during the summer.

May god bless you, if there is any ;)

socal2 says

Obviously batteries are still massively expensive, but EV's have way less moving parts and components to wear out. No transmissions, oil changes, brake jobs etc....

Engine and transmission can last 1/4 million miles and 20+ years, especially without government mpg regulation forcing manufacturers into small displacement turbos. No lithium battery can last 20+ years. Brake jobs are necessary on BEV's every year due to rust/sticking thanks to lack of use. "Less moving" is not a good thing when it comes to brakes. The heavy weight of massive battery wears out tires and suspension components faster, and especially wears out public roads fast, which requires asphalt and concrete to repave, both of which generate enormous amount of CO2 in production. What the heck are the refineries supposed to do with gasoline as byproduct in the production of asphalt, synthetic rubber and plastic? Making Molotov Cocktails?

Reality says

No lithium battery can last 20+ years.

We will see. The original Model S's on the road now are about 10 years old and I am not seeing a bunch of reports of major battery degradation yet.

True about the weight of the car and impact on infrastructure. That will get better over time with less batteries/weight as they improve drive train efficiency and energy density. Tesla already uses less batteries than most other EV's in the market and gets better range.

DeficitHawk says

I think people who own a home and have a garage where they can charge, and who also own more than one car for the family (so the other car can be a gas car) can make good use of electric cars.

This is spot on. I appreciate your thoughtful post. You are 100% correct that electric vehicles can make an excellent 2nd vehicle in a large number of households. They can make a great vehicle in a bunch of other circumstances, too.

Unfortunately, electric cars have become a yet another political hot topic. The over-eager government (and certain types of people) pushing electrics are actually creating stubborn resistance. Jumpstarting an industry to get above a point of sufficient quantity can be a useful strategy, but I don't think electric cars need so much push that a whole bunch of people have a bad experience.

About to become more expensive to charge the EV.

EV Charging Station SPACs go SPLAT!

https://wolfstreet.com/2023/11/17/the-collapse-of-ev-charger-spacs-chargepoint-ceo-sacked-cfo-out-revenues-plunge-losses-mount-shares-96-from-peak-evgo-not-far-behind/

PumpingRedheads says

About to become more expensive to charge the EV.

EV Charging Station SPACs go SPLAT!

https://wolfstreet.com/2023/11/17/the-collapse-of-ev-charger-spacs-chargepoint-ceo-sacked-cfo-out-revenues-plunge-losses-mount-shares-96-from-peak-evgo-not-far-behind/

Chargepoint is a fucking joke: their shitty chargers are just 6kW, which means it takes fucking hours to add any meaningful range.

Reality says

Brake jobs are necessary on BEV's every year due to rust/sticking thanks to lack of use.

I'm not sure about lack of use part: I once was at a stoplight next to a ModelX and noticed that the front brake rotor had a very pronounced ridge around the edge, meaning they were at least 1-2mm down from the original thickness. Now, this is not unusual for ICE cars and on average happens after 50-80K miles (depending on the pad compaund), but having this much wear doesn't really fit with the "EVs don't use brakes at all" narrative. Of course that ModelX could've had 400K miles on the clock - we'll never know.

Eric Holder says

Chargepoint is a fucking joke: their shitty chargers are just 6kW, which means it takes fucking hours to add any meaningfu

Most of them are. Especially public (government) bathrooms...er, chargers.

Happy Juneteenth EV Fluffers!

Demand Power Charges Are the Achilles Heel of a Nationwide EV Fast Charging Network

Factors that impact DCFC profitability include low utilization percentages (due to the high percentage of home charging and that EVs represent less than 1% of the total US vehicle fleet)….and also high operating costs from demand power charges. Demand power is typically the highest electricity usage during a 15 minute period in a billing cycle and utilities charge a premium for it. By measuring spikes in power demand and charging a higher fee to supply it, a utility is better prepared to deliver electricity under all power demand scenarios and be able to afford to invest in the infrastructure to do so. The cost of demand power at my office location is $3.41 per kW….which is 22 times more than the overall cost of electricity.

The challenges for achieving DCFC profitability might be one reason this country’s largest EV manufacturer fired their entire 500 member charging team. Perhaps it was discovered that this division was an important drain on profitability, and why Wall Street does not appear to recognize its robust charging system as an important source of future profitability.

The cost to construct, operate, and maintain a DCFC station is significantly higher than for a gasoline station. If DCFC stations cannot be operated profitably, what does it mean for the viability of the transition to an electric vehicle world that many are aspiring for.

https://www.realclearenergy.org/articles/2024/06/18/demand_power_chargesthe_achilles_heel_of_a_nationwide_ev_fast_charging_network_1038939.html

For reference: https://www.ampcontrol.io/post/the-ugly-truth-of-demand-charges-and-how-to-save-money

Most people charge at home at night when the car is not in use and the electricity rates are the lowest.

It costs me about $8.00 to fill up my battery each week charging at home. It costs my wife $70 a week filling up her Hyundai at Costco and we drive the same amount of miles.

@socal2 what’s your 1kwh price and battery capacity in kWh units, how many miles does it give per charge, what’s your ice mi/gal
Mine take 100h on regular wall socket which draws about 12A on s3 plaid. Mostly use charge point.

@Blue - I pay $0.13/kWh for Super Off Peak (midnight to 6AM) and (midnight to 2PM on weekends).

My battery is 81kWh and I plug into my existing dryer outlet in the garage which is 220V at 30 amps. So I get about 22 miles/hour hour charge. I typically charge 2 nights a week to stay in the super off peak times keeping the battery between 20 and 80% full.

@socal2, your $.13/KWh makes a big difference, good for you. Down here, pge charges $.42-48 depending on the tier. I have a feeling, can go up even more soon. In terms of the price EVs are not super economical down here. But this doesn’t stop super enthusiasts around who get free charging at work. Based on what I know most places offer 7kw (I read 6 on display, because of the load) for 4 hours max. One has to run around to pull in and out to avoid fines. At best it helps 10 to 20 miles per charge. One has to look for the next 4 hr slot. Most likely one ends up stick around 10 to 12 hr to get two charges. I guess, it’s good for the employer!

socal2 says

It costs my wife $70 a week filling up her Hyundai at Costco and we drive the same amount of miles.

And what was the price difference between the cars? Is it similar sized to your Tesla? $70/wk is kind of a lot for any Hyundai that I know of unless driving 800 miles a week which is unlikely in most scenarios.

I drive a V8 Armada, so shitty gas mileage and I don't even spend $70/wk living 20 miles from the nearest big stores or things I need to do/get. Wife drives a 4 Runner and goes to the gym every morning 20 miles each way and then drives her territories of IL and Wisconsin. I think she even struggles to get $70/wk and she drives a lot more than most.

I don't know if it's a CA thing with gas prices, but in IL ICE is substantially cheaper than an EV based on price alone. I can fuel up for 5 years here before any model of Tesla is a break even. Don't have to charge every night or at work. I can go a week and take 3 minutes to fuel up one time. I know there's a gas station near if running low. There are zero chargers where I'm at.

Not an EV hater as I've driven them before. The economics of them doesn't make sense. This is one of those CA centric things in my opinion and it looks like they're gonna tax you cats as I've been saying. You don't get to use the roads for free. You will be paying more per mile than an ICE vehicle on top of the higher purchase price soon.

I know the green push has nothing to do with your driving a Tesla. You like it. Which is fine. I need to tow 200-350 miles. No EV is remotely close to doing that and I'm talking 3-5k gross weight. Nothing extreme.

I am on a trip to Maryland, DC areas. I get gas for $3.25 at Costco! Still see EVs around. I’d suspect that they might have bought them for non economical reasons like fun, lifestyle etc.

Blue says

socal2, your $.13/KWh makes a big difference, good for you. Down here, pge charges $.42-48 depending on the tier. I have a feeling, can go up even more soon.

I would not recommend getting an EV if you can't charge at home. It's doable to rely on Tesla Superchargers, but it takes away one of the greatest conveniences of driving EV's. California just changed electric rates statewide that screws new solar homes, but locks in and even lowers my hourly rates. I have SDG&E and they have an "EV plan" where they charge higher rates during the day and give you lower rates at night.

I did the math 6 years ago when I got my first EV (Chevy Bolt) and the math worked for me in terms of gas and maintenance savings.

WookieMan says

And what was the price difference between the cars? Is it similar sized to your Tesla? $70/wk is kind of a lot for any Hyundai that I know of unless driving 800 miles a week which is unlikely in most scenarios.

A mid range Hyundai Santa Fe is $38K. Premium Santa Fe's run as high as $51K in SoCal. A new Model Y is $45K.......but there is also a $7,500 federal subsidy that brings the price down to $37,500.

Then I get over $200/month in gas/maintenance savings. The cheapest gas I can get at Costco is $4.55/gallon.

So even without the $7,500 Federal subsidy, the cost of owning/operating a Tesla is less than a mid-range Hyundai after 3 years.

I get it that you are constantly towing and an EV won't work for you, but the MAJORITY of drivers will never tow a thing in their entire lives.

socal2 says

Most people charge at home at night when the car is not in use and the electricity rates are the lowest.

Marie Antionette 'Let them eat cake'.

Most ppl in California are renters.

Of course, my post wasn't even about that. It was about DCFC profitability.

But as usual, socal2 engages in red herrings, whataboutisms and non-sequitors when he doesn't like where the subject is going.

I've been looking at the Ford F150 powerboost. It's a V6 twin turbo with an electric motor in between the engine and the 10 speed transmission. It's also basically a rolling generator with a 3.6 (upgradeable to 7.2) KW inverter. You can crank the AC in a large 3rd wheel for a 3 day weekend and burn 1/3 to 2/3 a tank of gas and it's quiet. It's also way more efficient than the tri-fuel generator I bought last year and only ever so slightly less efficient than a good diesel generator.

Over 600 mile range. 430HP, aluminum body and over 500ft/lbs of torque.

I'm only waiting to hear about the 2025 models before I buy. Rumor is it'll come with a 50KW battery (instead of the small one it has now) that will give it an electric only range of 30 miles in best case conditions.

I can easily putter back and forth to my aging parents house on electric only to check in on them. The build I'm considering is a wee bit over $85K MSRP but I know a place that will sell it to me for 4% below invoice. I think it might qualify for the Federal subsidy (with the larger battery) and they do allow incentive stacking without any BS. This place basically doesn't even have a service center, their business model is to move trucks as fast as possible with the lowest overhead possible.

I think PHEV is the near future vs. fully electric. I think Teslas are numero uno with respect to electric but aren't built very well.

Speaking of shitty builds RAM is out with a PHEV with over 600HP but it's an all electric drive train and they have a jeep V6 onboard as a generator. Again, with a range over 600 miles. But I would never buy a Stellantis vehicle. Rumor is they are fucking up builds on purpose to have an excuse to move production out of the US entirely. Either way they are pieces of shits. Much like my 90s jeep was.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

Of course, my post wasn't even about that. It was about DCFC profitability.

Don't believe anyone is arguing that you can save money on fuel/electricity if you have to rely exclusively on DCFC. The Tesla Supercharging prices in California are about the same as a gallon of gas. I only use them for pure convenience or on a long road trip. Over 98% of my charging is done at home.

just_passing_through says

I think PHEV is the near future vs. fully electric.

PHEV's are twice as complex and super expensive. Why bother with a hybrid when you still have to do all the maintenance on a gas engine, oil changes, transmissions and brakes?

The other OEM's simply did not invest in batteries like Tesla has and are stuck with the worst of both worlds.

socal2 says

money on fuel/electricity if you have to rely exclusively on DCFC. The Tesla Supercharging prices in California are about the same as a gallon of gas. I only use them for pure convenience or on a long road trip. Over 98% of my charging is done at home.

AGAIN...you can't keep on subject.

That has nothing to do with the profitability of DCFC charging stations. Nothing.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

AGAIN...you can't keep on subject.

That has nothing to do with the profitability of DCFC charging stations. Nothing.

WTF are you talking about?

The thread subject is: *Which is more expensive: charging an electric vehicle or fueling a car with gas?*

I am sharing 6 years of personal experience where I am saving over $200 month on fuel driving an EV and charging at home.

socal2 says

WTF are you talking about?

The thread subject is: *Which is more expensive: charging an electric vehicle or fueling a car with gas?*

I am sharing 6 years of personal experience where I am saving over $200 month on fuel driving an EV and charging at home.

Amazing.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

socal2 says

WTF are you talking about?

The thread subject is: *Which is more expensive: charging an electric vehicle or fueling a car with gas?*

I am sharing 6 years of personal experience where I am saving over $200 month on fuel driving an EV and charging at home.

Amazing.

It HAS been amazing driving my Tesla these past years.

So much power, enjoyment and cost savings!

socal2 says

HAS been amazing driving my Tesla these past years.

So much power, enjoyment and cost savings!

So fucking what, Marie Antionette? Totally off topic. Again.

The_Deplorable says

Yeah - that is absurd.

Should have just given the money to Tesla to continue to build out the Supercharger network.

Just like the government should have given Elon Musk money to increase Starlink for rural internet access instead of spending Billions on Fiber Optic.
https://twitter.com/JesseBWatters/status/1803583502174028210

socal2 says

Should have just given the money to Tesla to continue to build out the Supercharger network.

With what team? (Then again, why do I bother. You didn't read this the first time)

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

The challenges for achieving DCFC profitability might be one reason this country’s largest EV manufacturer fired their entire 500 member charging team. Perhaps it was discovered that this division was an important drain on profitability, and why Wall Street does not appear to recognize its robust charging system as an important source of future profitability.

socal2 says

Just like the government should have given Elon Musk money to increase Starlink for rural internet access instead of spending Billions on Fiber Optic.

What fiber optic? They built out some. A fraction of what is needed.