2
0

Georgism Thread


 invite response                
2022 Aug 5, 4:00pm   25,507 views  181 comments

by Patrick   ➕follow (60)   💰tip   ignore  

Having read an abridged version of Henry George's Progress and Poverty, I'm trying to clarify in my own mind exactly how it could work, and what legitimate objections might be. Georgism seems to explain property prices in the Bay Area very well, and how the higher salaries from increased productivity around here get sucked up by non-productive landowners.

These links look pretty good. I just read the first one. They all pretty long, but seem worth the read:

https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/your-book-review-progress-and-poverty
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/does-georgism-work-is-land-really
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/does-georgism-work-part-2-can-landlords
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/does-georgism-work-part-3-can-unimproved
https://www.theirishstory.com/2016/10/18/the-great-irish-famine-1845-1851-a-brief-overview/

The main impediment, politically, would be the reduction in land prices. But perhaps some tech billionaires would throw their weight behind Georgism purely out of self-interest. They would come out ahead if income tax is reduced as much as the land value tax is raised.


« First        Comments 158 - 181 of 181        Search these comments

158   Patrick   2024 Jun 7, 10:47am  





One of the big advantages of Georgism is its simplicity.

Only land and other natural resources would be taxed, and the tax rate would be how much someone bids to have monopoly use of them per year.
159   Patrick   2024 Jun 13, 4:58pm  

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2024/06/trump-drops-bombshell-proposal-allegedly-suggests-eliminating-income/


Trump Drops Bombshell Proposal: Allegedly Suggests Eliminating Income Tax in Favor of High Import Tariffs During DC Republicans Meeting


This sounds like a good step towards Georgism.
160   DemocratsAreTotallyFucked   2024 Jun 13, 5:00pm  

Patrick says


Trump Drops Bombshell Proposal: Allegedly Suggests Eliminating Income Tax in Favor of High Import Tariffs During DC Republicans Meeting


Wouldn't be nearly enough. A VAT and a business Gross Receipts flat tax might. Both at 10% rates at least.

And this:

Despite these tariffs, the prices of imported goods remained unaffected under Trump’s administration.


There are so many ways around tariffs these days. Globalism and standardized shipping containers are the main culprits.
161   Patrick   2024 Jun 13, 5:03pm  

Right, it's just a step in the right direction. The Land Value Tax is what would generate enough revenue to run the government we need. Not the one we have.
162   DemocratsAreTotallyFucked   2024 Jun 13, 5:07pm  

Patrick says


Right, it's just a step in the right direction. The Land Value Tax is what would generate enough revenue to run the government we need. Not the one we have.


Again, LVT can't be levied at the federal level, really. Apportionment.


163   Patrick   2024 Jun 13, 5:11pm  

We couldn't impose a federal income tax either until the 16th Amendment.

16th should be repealed and replaced with LVT.
164   DemocratsAreTotallyFucked   2024 Jun 13, 5:16pm  

Patrick says

We couldn't impose a federal income tax either until the 16th Amendment.

16th should be repealed and replaced with LVT.


We could for the same reasons we could impose an LVT. It's just that the apportionment clause issue made collecting both too much a pain in the ass both technically and politically.

Getting any Constitutional amendment passed and ratified these days is politically impossible.
165   Patrick   2024 Sep 5, 10:53am  

Me arguing with a communist on my Substack:

https://patrickdotnet.substack.com/p/patricknet-memes-wed-sep-04-2024/comment/67915786


I sympathize with your wanting to believe, but it's not even remotely close. Communism murdered way WAY more people than fascism: Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot. People want to keep the results of their own labor, so communists have to kill people to take their stuff to "redistribute". And after a bit of this, no one bothers to produce anything anymore because they see it will be stolen. Then everyone still left alive is poor.

But let's talk about what we agree on: as productivity increased over the last 50 years or so, workers got none of the gains. It all went to stockholders.

All that stuff produced ultimately came from land. Thing of a car. Every part of it was from land: metal, glass, rubber, even the gasoline. No one made the land, but all the profits from land go to the land owners anyway.

Or think of a landlord. OK, he built or maintains a building. That's real work and he should get paid for that part. But owning the land? That's not work. That's just taking from others, also called "non-productive rent-seeking":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking

That unearned land rent is the only appropriate object of taxation, and should be taxed at 100%. Taxing away the profits from land ownership will not hurt the economy in the least. It's not like less land will be produced.

But taxing earned income is bad, because that discourages work. And taxing sales is bad because that discourages commerce, and commerce makes everyone better off as people engage in voluntary trade with each other.

So the owners of businesses are doing something good by producing, but something bad by taking unearned profits from land ownership. Neither the pure capitalist nor pure communist is doing the right thing.

The impediment to implementing Georgism is psychological. As people start to accumulate land, they LIKE the ability to exploit everyone else without working anymore, simply by owning the land. Everyone hopes to exploit everyone else by owning as much land as possible. Mostly we see this when people buy a house. They want the price of the house+land to go up without doing any work. So pretty much everyone who buys a house instantly becomes anti-Georgist because he or she is hoping to take unearned income from others who need somewhere to live.
166   HeadSet   2024 Sep 5, 1:01pm  

Patrick says

So pretty much everyone who buys a house instantly becomes anti-Georgist because he or she is hoping to take unearned income from others who need somewhere to live.

That scenario only works if one owns a trailer park and charges trailer owners to park without providing any services. Owning the land under my house is not an example of charging someone else or getting unearned income. In fact, I have to pay the county a tax apportioned to that land so that is like Georgism in practice.
167   Patrick   2024 Sep 5, 2:16pm  

Owning the land under your house is a bet that the land value will rise due to the development of the economy nearby so that you can eventually sell it for more and profit from the work of others.

But yes, to the degree that property tax is taxing land, it is a bit of Georgism already.

The house value and improvements to the land should be completely untaxed.
168   HeadSet   2024 Sep 5, 2:38pm  

Patrick says

Owning the land under your house is a bet that the land value will rise due to the development of the economy

"development of the economy?" Try "inflation." Inflation that causes the tax to increase every other year and increases the cost of selling and replacing.
169   Patrick   2024 Sep 5, 2:53pm  

Well yes, there are both.

All assets inflate without necessarily increasing in value as the Fed prints ever more dollars.

But there is also an increase in land value as the economy around that land develops. That can run the other way as well, as in Detroit.
170   mell   2024 Sep 5, 3:07pm  

I would argue that the land value only goes up as long as the population keeps increasing. Once we reach an infection point where world population growth stalls or reverses to decline, it will likely not appreciate anymore or even depreciate.
171   FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden   2024 Sep 5, 3:41pm  

Trump is going to open up federal lands for development. it’ll be wild again.
172   DemocratsAreTotallyFucked   2024 Sep 5, 4:05pm  

Patrick says

Me arguing with a communist on my Substack:


Well, there's your problem right there.

Communists are to be shot, not 'argued with'.
173   DemocratsAreTotallyFucked   2024 Sep 5, 4:09pm  

HeadSet says

"development of the economy?" Try "inflation." Inflation that causes the tax to increase every other year and increases the cost of selling and replacing


Both you and Patrick are correct.
174   DemocratsAreTotallyFucked   2024 Sep 5, 4:14pm  

FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden says

Trump is going to open up federal lands for development. it’ll be wild again.


Sure he will.

He also just promised to young ppl he would slash the cost of a house by 50% by abolishing regulations that cause expensive housing construction costs.

But those regs are almost entirely local and state. He can't touch those even if Congress goes along.

But it is excellent politics for him to make these empty promises.
175   Patrick   2024 Sep 5, 4:22pm  

mell says

I would argue that the land value only goes up as long as the population keeps increasing. Once we reach an infection point where world population growth stalls or reverses to decline, it will likely not appreciate anymore or even depreciate.


Yes, that seems true. Detroit is confirmation. As the population shrank, driven away by violent crime, the land prices also declined dramatically.

Job density also matters. Where jobs are increasing, land prices increase, soaking up unearned income off the work of others. Which is pretty much the central thesis of Georgism.
176   DemocratsAreTotallyFucked   2024 Sep 5, 4:25pm  

Patrick says

Job density also matters. Where jobs are increasing, land prices increase, soaking up unearned income off the work of others. Which is pretty much the central thesis of Georgism.


State to state comparison would not to look at Detroit (although that stands out all on its own) but say, California or even Oregon vs West Virginia).
177   HeadSet   2024 Sep 5, 6:32pm  

Patrick says

Where jobs are increasing, land prices increase, soaking up unearned income off the work of others.

So, the many times that lands prices have decreased, does that mean that those "others" have soaked income of the landowner?
178   Patrick   2024 Sep 5, 6:36pm  

I don't see how.
179   DemocratsAreTotallyFucked   2024 Sep 5, 6:47pm  

HeadSet says

So, the many times that lands prices have decreased, does that mean that those "others" have soaked income of the landowner?


First, it's the other way around. And second, obviously what goes up can go down. Again, look at West Virginia after Obama nuked the domestic coal industry.
180   HeadSet   2024 Sep 5, 7:01pm  

DemocratsAreTotallyFucked says

HeadSet says


So, the many times that lands prices have decreased, does that mean that those "others" have soaked income of the landowner?


First, it's the other way around. And second, obviously what goes up can go down. Again, look at West Virginia after Obama nuked the domestic coal industry.

I think we agree here.

« First        Comments 158 - 181 of 181        Search these comments

Please register to comment:

api   best comments   contact   latest images   memes   one year ago   random   suggestions   gaiste