patrick.net

Peter, I've concluded the same thing, however, China is the kind of place that will up the death penalty if there is enough demand for organs. This makes it an unethical practice.

So in Britain, “Irish” is considered “other than white”. Wow.

Perhaps there is a choice for A and D, and All of the above.

Patrick, you're cracking me up.

I can't believe it, they made me feel like a nigger, how dare they?

Peter, I’ve concluded the same thing, however, China is the kind of place that will up the death penalty if there is enough demand for organs.

If they merely speed up execution for existing convictions, it is all fine. But if they convict more people that would not have been sentenced to death, we are in a moral gray zone (80% gray).

I went to England for a year in high school, and yes, the same polock jokes are told about the Irish, but I had no idea that they literally distinguish on forms.

Peter, it's getting that bad.

Politically, there is no way enforcement can be carried out without some kind of compromise for businesses and illegals. The guest worker program is necessarily. Employers can still have access to labor and illegals can be legalized as non-immigrants for now.

I agree there's no practical way to deport 10-15 million people to their countries of origin. 30-some years of deliberate non-enforcement has definitely had an impact. Even so, any "compromise" measure that wants my support has to start with two things:
1) Real border security starting now --period.
2) Violations against people/employers who hire illegals must be enforced going forward. We basically don't fine or prosecute anyone for doing this now, which means zero disincentive for them to keep doing it.

Malcolm,

That doesn't surprise me about those who go to China knowing they'll be getting the kidney/heart/whatever from a prisoner. Humans will go to desperate measures when their lives are at stake. It's a sick form of supply and demand, enabled by the Chinese government.

Where I disagree with Peter P is that the ethical question is beyond "wast(ing) organs from executed prisoners." This places a moral hazard on the government to execute more and more prisoners for money.

To get back to the immigration issue, that's my beef with all this talk about reform - most proposed solutions present a severe moral hazard. Come here illegally because we'll let you stay in the end. Same with the credit cards, car insurance for illegals. Wrong.

Hey Harm, what about employers who 'check the paperwork' with a wink knowing it is false, but because they fill out the I9 form they are never prosecuted.

Skibum, literally doctors are setting appointments around the Chinese national day, because as part of the ceremony many prisoners, some guilty of drug usage, are executed.

Patrick, if it helps any, Ireland is going through a boom, and English people are going over there, taking menial work in areas like construction.

1) Real border security starting now –period.
2) Violations against people/employers who hire illegals must be enforced going forward. We basically don’t fine or prosecute anyone for doing this now, which means zero disincentive for them to keep doing it.

HARM, I agree.

I do not know how anyone can oppose border militarization with a straight face.

Peter, the problem is they don't. They don't oppose it when the camera is on them, but somehow a few months later when it is no longer a hot issue no tanks ever show up. Remember that stupid Bush proposal for the National Guard to go, and then Mexico said they were going to call us names or something, now I don't ever hear anything about the National Guard on the border. My favorite quote from some AOL message board was, "so let me get this straight, we are sending 5,000 troops to NOT patrol the border?"

Hey Harm, what about employers who ‘check the paperwork’ with a wink knowing it is false, but because they fill out the I9 form they are never prosecuted.

Yup. Perhaps some form of tough-to-counterfeit national ID card is in order.

Bush actually said, the National Guard is going down there but will not be enforcing the border. WTF?

They don’t oppose it when the camera is on them, but somehow a few months later when it is no longer a hot issue no tanks ever show up.

We do not even need tanks. Just a three-layer, 20-feet fence with UAVs and humvees will go a long way. The scale is much smaller than the Great Wall of China.

How about this... illegals may be legalized if they build the fence for free.

Hey Harm, how about actually putting a photo on the social security card? I like simplicity.

And they all get free health services at any emergency room.

One thing though. True emergencies should not be denied care regardless.

I'd even consider putting land mines along the border but some people might think I'm a little extreme.

I’d even consider putting land mines along the border but some people might think I’m a little extreme.

Only if the mine field is protected by 20-feet fences. We do not want accidents. I am a humanitarian and I believe tragedies should be avoided if at all possible.

Every time a land mine goes off we could check the organ donor waiting list though. Wow, I just came up with like three solutions to different problems in one go.

I'd pay for the warning sign to be written in Spanish.

Every time a land mine goes off we could check the organ donor waiting list though.

What is left might not be what you want...

@Malcolm,

And they think *I'm* a hard-ass on immigration -- :lol:

I do not know how anyone can oppose border militarization with a straight face.

Botox?

Malcolm: (Referring to a far earlier post) What if they take out most of the LA area along with Long Beach? Trading LA for a forced concession on cheap oil sounds almost worthwhile...

Anyway, after reading enough Niven, I have a significant wariness of any involuntary organ donor program. (And I'd have words with any friends who thought of taking advantage of such a program.)

Well we can set up different mines to do different things, then we don't end up with a surplus of corneas, and not enough livers.

I actually don't have a problem with organ transfer from willing donors who are financially compensated. There are two types of organ transfer situations in China, and I know it since I know of a person who runs such a facility.

Type 1 is for willing donors who are doing it to better the financial future of their family, mainly to pay for kids' education. Well, at least this is a constructive way for him and his kids to get out of poverty. If you don't want his kidney, you are also blocking him the hope of upward mobility.

Type 2 is much shadier. To-be-executed prisoners are lined up for organs, and sometimes the execution schedule is arranged so that the person in dire need of that organ is checked into a facility nearby right before the execution so that the organ can be served "fresh". The family of the prisoner is NOT compensated in this case, it is the prison guards who get the cut. Worse still, since there are so many executions in China for petty crimes, particularly in more impoverished areas, and the judiciary system is next to a joke, there is a huge financial motivation to put those committing relatively benign crime on the death row.

Morality aside, the medical facility for organ transfer is not quite up to the standard. A celebrity of Hong Kong, the estranged wife of a billionaire went to such a facility for kidney transfer, and she died from complication just a couple months later. People with higher connections can secure organs at top-tier hospitals in China (e.g. 301 hospital that treats the top communist party members), but it is unusual because after all, organ transfer is a shady business. If you just have money and no connections, you can only do your transfer at such a private-run facility at your own risk, and the cost is not cheap either ($30K per kidney plus $30K for operation).

How about this… illegals may be legalized if they build the fence for free.

Sounds fair to me. One thing though --we need to make sure they complete the fence on the Mexican side of the border (wink, wink :twisted: ).

Req, I'm with you.

Statistically the type 1s end up blowing the money anyway, then they are back in the same boat, and often have health complications which further the poverty for the rest of their lives.

With all the wasted money on border control, I wonder why don't we direct the same money to setting up a couple of universities in the border just for Mexicans.

Here is the thought. You cannot stop illegal immigration from a neighboring country, that is a fact that you need to accept. So, instead of blocking them, set up a system so that those Mexicans who cross the border are at least better educated.

I say, have a quota every few years for those Mexican illegal immigrants who went through these universities we set up for them for amnesty if they come here illegally. The whole idea is, those who took the time to go through our training program (4 years, also makes sure they are older before they reproduce like rabbits) will have a much better odd at becoming US citizens. This program in itself will put more Mexicans waiting on the other side of the border.

OO, but where would you draw the line. All of the current universities in California combined couldn't handle it. The only thing I agree with you on is a quota system for immigration, and as Peter says, a very open and traceable guest worker program.

Malcom,

this is actually not true for most Chinese peasants. One hears quite a few cases of parents selling blood to fund their kids through college in China these days. Chinese parents are capable of tremendous sacrifice to pave way for their kids, that is something I don't see in other culture.

One thing though. True emergencies should not be denied care regardless.

Who gets to define what a "true" emergency should be?

I’m just reading that 4/29 stuff, never thought it was deliberate,

I think the fortune cookie reference was a giveaway. :)

Have you seen some of the 9/11 conspiracy sites? Good grief.

Just to throw in the evil twist... at the universities, the prospective illegals will be given subliminal programming. :twisted:

OO, my reference was what happens mainly in India so you are probably right. I would guess putting towards getting an education is actually a good use of the money, it's the desperate people who think a one time winfall is going to change their lives are what I am really talking about.

Malcom,

the goal is not to educate ALL Mexicans, the goal is deter, make them wait, make them invest time and energy, and selectively pick those who are better educated, have more discipline and smarter Mexicans from the general pool.

I don't want to educate them here, because that will dilute the standard of universities. It will be much cheaper to set up the universities in Mexico as well, and it is great PR program.

We will only have quota for LEGAL immigration for the Mexicans who went through our university programs down there. You limit the seating capacity right there. Then, you make the quota number still smaller than the seating capacity at these schools. The whole idea is to make it a funnel, but big enough to keep the hope alive.

Chinese parents are capable of tremendous sacrifice to pave way for their kids, that is something I don’t see in other culture.

And then they come here and use those sacrificial tendencies to bid up homes in Sunnyvale/Cupertino. :(

OO, in certain cases I would agree when we derive a direct benefit such as a student exchange. What you are proposing under the guise of self preservation of our country is now extending the welfare entitlemetnt state south. Now the don't even have to cross the border to catch a bus we'll go to them.