patrick.net

Toll roads are fine so long as thoroughly and properly regulated.

The idea is to deregulate such things. Hopefully, privatization of roadways will lead to competition.

Captive sheeple in their sh*tboxes, currently paying over $150 avg tolls monthly just to commute on this road.

People are responsible for their own decisions.

Private toll roads are the worst idea ever. Private owners will milk the public over and over and over again. A public road is built, and when it is paid off, everyone gets to use it for fun and profit, in perpetuity. Mainyentance does not really cost all that much, gas tax takes care of it.

justme said:
Regressive tax encourages one class of people to sit on their fat asses while another class of people do the production for them.

If you look at the big picture, "Progressive" taxes do the same thing.

In fact, I have given up trying to earn more income because of the f*cked up "progressive" crap. I actively seek out legal ways to make marginal income outside of the wage trap just to get around this b.s.

Toll road is better than gas tax because it can allocate resources best. When the operation of toll roads becomes profitable, more toll roads will be built, creating competitions. The result is lower cost for all.

We should also privatize all schools.

"Now servicers have to do triage" LOL!

MEDIC!

A glimpse? You KNOW I can't stand the sight of blood?

Thanks Quiet Renter.

Administrator Says:
As for the rate, the most clever idea I’ve heard is this: pay whatever land tax you want. But every tax payment is also a legally binding offer to sell the land. So if you pay very little, you have valued your land at a low price, and someone else can just buy it from you!

This is actually in effect for transactions in many countries that tax the transfer of assets.

If you declare a low valuation for the asset, to cheat the government of transfer-taxes, the government reserves the right to buy the asset from you for that price. Very difficult to game the system.

Just a lousy $150 bucks to drive on a slightly less f@cked up road with 10% LESS traffic! Sign me the f@ck up! Yeah buddy! :)

When the carpool lanes became an obvious and complete failure coming down from Scamcouver into Portland they sold a "pass" to allow you to drive almost with a lane to yourself!

I think toll roads would also eliminate a lot of "cruising". Dickheads with no where to go and all day to get there (expired plates) and no insurance will have to hang out behind 7-11! Good riddance!

Progressive taxation (or welfare in general) is there to keep the poor eternally poor.

If you declare a low valuation for the asset, to cheat the government of transfer-taxes, the government reserves the right to buy the asset from you for that price. Very difficult to game the system.

Yep. The best policy is achieved through balance, not regulation.

SP,

>If you look at the big picture, “Progressive” taxes do the same thing.

This is all about what the slope of the tax rate function should be [the function rate=f(income), if you will]. Peter P says the slope should be flat or negative, I say it should be positive, and noticeably so. Picking the slope exactly equal to zero seems very arbitrary. I don't see slope==0 to be some god-given constant of optimality, derived from the finer or cruder points of human nature. I do think that a positive number is optimal, and strikes the correct balance between "fairness" and "mobility", when viewing the economy as a dynamical system.

Personal wealth should decay exponentially with time through wealth and inheritance taxes, so that unproductive wealth (aka. sitting on ones fat ass) is penalized. The time constant should be such that amassed wealth is mostly gone within 3 generations. Work should be rewarded through increasing pay, but one should also pay a larger share of taxes because wealth is always built on the backs of everyones labor. I personally find it foolish, egomaniacal and disengenious to think that ones wealth simply a function of ones own effort. Not that I'm accusing anyone of thinking that :-).

Patrick,

The name-your-price system of property valuation system is pure genius, but the problem is always that the system will be gamed, sooner or later. And I think I can guarantee there will be unintended consequences.

My accountant been doing taxes 40 years. He says there is constant 'flat tax' talk but every year the tax rules get more and more complex and byzantine. Witness the oct 2007 'dont tase me bro' walkaway tax free rule....(if you bought your house in certain years or walk away in certian years?)

The only way to wipe out all taxes and start over is to start a brand new country. And then after 30 years you will need better schools and have 2 wars and have new taxes every year just like the old country....

tax reform -its hopeless. Ron Paul has a better chance getting elected than any flat tax system.

Personal wealth should decay exponentially with time through wealth and inheritance taxes, so that unproductive wealth (aka. sitting on ones fat ass) is penalized.

Why?

Why not penalize welfare recipients for sitting on their fat asses and breeding future welfare recipients like rabbits.

If we cannot get a flat tax we should at least hope for a cut in marginal tax rates.

Again, justme, we should agree to disagree. :)

Peter P,

I'm always agreeable to disagree with you about taxes, or any other controversial matter, for that sake :-). But I feel compelled to provide the alternative view when you are striking left and right (well, left mostly) with your pithy one-liners.

HelloKitty,

I agree with you.

Idaho has a novel take on sales tax of food items....
All items in the store are taxed. The merchant doesn't segregate items into taxable vs. non-taxable. But on your state income tax return you get a standard credit per person to repay you for the food sales tax. Currently the "grocery credit" is $20 per person ($45 for old folks) in one's household but the legislature is talking about bumping it up. In discussions with my state senator the other day, he said this is a smart move because tourists and ILLEGAL ALIENS will pay the tax but not get the credit. :)

DennisN

what is the sales tax rate on food (roughly for all counties) for ID?

General sales tax is 6%, so that credit only works out to about $330 a year for food. That's why the legislature is working on a new bill to bump it up....something more like $60-70 per person.

NVR,

Are you talking about the Dulles Greenway? Last time I was on it, I think it was about $6 for 10 miles of road. Is that the one?

Peter P.

Can you name a single example of when, "the operation of toll roads becomes profitable, more toll roads will be built, creating competitions" has actually occurred?

For example the PA turnpike (recently sold, as I recall), was opened in 1940 and was profitable for decades. No other road ever opened.

Not trying to be troublesome -- it's a serious question.

OK let's say you can eat for $3 a day. That's $1700 a year. At Arizona's 10% tax, that's $170 a year. Per person. I'd like to see a rebate for that!

Taxing food is just ..... weird.

For example the PA turnpike (recently sold, as I recall), was opened in 1940 and was profitable for decades. No other road ever opened.

Or, existing public roads can be sold to private companies. This creates two things:

1. much needed revenue to pay down the national debt
2. competition between tool road companies

Frequently, toll roads are not constructed because of NIMBYism, not economics.

Taxing food is just ….. weird.

I agree. :)

@Ed

Yup this is the nasty beast, the Dulles Greenway. 10 miles sounds about right, it's $3.50 each way 2 axel during prime commute hours, plus another $0.75 each way if you pass through the toll extension at Tysons in Mclean to Arlington/DC. So roughly $8.50 per day x 20 commute days per month = $170.00 per month. It is privately owned by the "Toll Road Investors Partnership II (TRIP II)". This is in turned owned by an Australian private company, Macquarie Infrastructure Group. I believe our friends at KBR (Kellogg Brown and Root) also own a big stake.

And the lovely exburb of Ashburn (aka as*burn) is obviously the locale of which I speak. I live in Middleburg area (horse country, my ex loved the horses. I don't recommend the horse women,btw and OT).

The Va State Corp Commission, which is the regulating body over the road, just approved annual increases to $4.80 each way on the greenway portion by 2012.

A little known fact is it was built to some degree to divert the sheeple and sprawl away from the hamlet of Middleburg by the rich old money around. Better to point that thing towards Leesburg than be subject to development which would have resulted otherwise. This area is home to the Mars families, Mellons, Duponts, you name it. Even Sandy Lerner, co founder of Cisco, has big place here. Shelia Johnson is another Billionaire who is making waves around town with a new resort.

justme said:
Personal wealth should decay exponentially with time through wealth and inheritance taxes, so that unproductive wealth (aka. sitting on ones fat ass) is penalized. The time constant should be such that amassed wealth is mostly gone within 3 generations.

Whenever some jackass starts talking about what should happen to other people's property, I generally tend to stop paying attention. Nothing personal.

Ed S and NVR,

Goes to show exactly what happens when roads get privatized.

I have an idea: Let's privatize our FREEDOM(tm). Then you can pay for your freedom anytime you need some. Obviously, freedom is much too valuable to be squandered by the gubbermint. They are always so wasteful and stupid. Privatize the constitution, too, while we are at it. In fact, why don't we privatize Congress while we are at it. Clearly, everything will be much better if Congress is run for profit(*). We'll get the laws that we pay for, what could be better than that,

(*) Yes, I'm turning up the sarcasm to the max here. But you get the idea.

Goes to show exactly what happens when roads get privatized.

I still don't see the issue. What is so bad there?

SP,

Did we not all talk about what SHOULD happen to other people's wealth and income when we discussed property tax and income tax? I don't think it was just me (ahem). Or was the sin the explicit use of the word "should" (your emphasis)? I don't think that deserves being called a jackass. Chill, dude. Peace out.

I for one am sick and tired of having to consult the tax code before I buy stuff, sell stuff, earn money, sell stock, buy stock, buy a bond(tax free muni bond?!), or quit a job, or take a job, or get a loan, or pay a loan off.

And the 'december rush' to buy crap I can write off is redonkulous. Athough I must say, being self employed is awsome for taxes compared to W2. But you pay for it in tax hassles.

The only way to 'win' is to be super well off then youd dont gotta worry. But I STILL see these people with a 1m mortgage and a 100k heloc since that is currently the most you can write off.....so even the very wealthy are running circles around the tax code...the savings/costs are just to high to ignore the #*$(@ tax code.

Every few months I start feeling stupid when I realize that Peter P actually agrees with me and is just being the devil's advocate or the court jester, whatever you want to call it. Right??

(This one ought to be good for a "Huh?"")

:-)
:-)

@Peter P

Its like the Rhine in Germany, all you needed was some swords, some wenches to keep the swords smiling, build yourself a defendable castle and set up a gate on the river and extract a bounty from everyone passing through. What's wrong with that, anything? Its just exacting your tax from the sheeple, no? You've got to eat and you were the one that was smart enough to get the wenches for the henchmen, right? Or title from some ancestor long ago who accumulated some wealth and favor from someone.

Justme has it, where do you draw the line Peter? Just what is and should be a community function and what a governmental one? Should we outsource the entire US military industrial complex?

Now these ozzies guys talk "Reasonable return on Investment". They make arguments like, "think about the tradeoffs, how much time is saved by users, auto maintenance, gas...we offer huge value. We are saving people money and the environment while we are at it. We are green!"

That road is permanent, and I for one was not given any choice in the matter. It will be here for a very, very long time.

Its the tragedy of the commons also.

The unfortunate thing is, from my readings there is an enormous trend to deploy private equity on public infrastructure. Lots of this money chasing these deals. For instance, the Carlyle Group is chasing after a rail project here with Arab oil money. Its starts to sound almost a little tin hat, but we could end up like the Rhine in Germany, peasants paying tolls to private concerns just to move around the country. And these private concerns just happen to be owned by foreign sovereigns.

China seems awful freewheeling with all that foreign reserve, maybe we could talk them into building bridges and infrastructure for us?

ESR
I'm math challenged. Can you explain how $3 per day equals $1700 a year.
All due respect my brotha, luv your stuff.

Really I wish we had a toll booth at the County Line of highway 237.

There was a referendum in the 1990's to impose a regressive sales tax on residence for improving public transit and expressways in the county, and it included 237. It passed and so 237 got widened along with the other improvements.

But almost all the benefit of 237 comes for nonresident wave slaves (and so, their employers) who commute from the East Bay and beyond, many of them from their MacMansions in places like Antioch or Tracy or Mountain House or whatever, congesting the roads, polluting the air,creating more demand for petrol that over 2000 Americans have died for in a war to secure, and now making a groundswell for further debasement of our currency.

The least they could do is pay a toll.

I got the math wrong somewhere, it's $1095 a year. And of course the avg. american is spending more than $3 a day on food. So, just figure the amount represented by 10% tax (it's actually a bit more than that here in Arizona) and go from there.

This is one example of how regressive taxes are in the US. So, when people say a 15% flat-tax is regressive, well, sure it is, but the taxes in place now are much, much more so.

Peter P Says:
February 12th, 2008 at 10:48 am
"We do need strong military though. The world is a dangerous place. Who knows, perhaps Europe will become hostile in a few decades."

Hostile, Europe?

There's another demography genocide going on there, too. But different from China, instead of just unborn femaies, it's unborn white babies. Politically correct "real" modern Europeans truly do honor their modern values of equality and egalitarianism when they practice infanticide.

If you saw the news from France a year or two ago, it doesn't take much imagination to figure out that there's a lot of nonwhites in Europe who evidently don't feel like they're being treated like they're "real Europeans".

And why should they feel so? - they haven't adopted the infanticide ethic of their adopted countries. So it may not be too many decades before the "European Union" demographic-morphes into the "European Islamic Republic"

Sybrib - the BA is one area where a person can live without a car and avoid one HELL of a lot of expense.

As per AAA figures, a few years old, the avg. McConsumer is paying about $8k a year to own and operate a car. That's about $13k a year they have to earn, since it's after-tax money.

Cars are a huge huge money sink. You can really come out ahead going car-free and just renting one when needed for a trip, or taking a cab once in a while, etc. It is not as "convenient" as having a car or three, and people see YOU not a huge penis-extension, so it can be quite a hit to the ego, but hey, for roughly $1000 a month per car eliminated? You can do it!

And most McConsumers are not going to start crowding up the bike lanes and bus stops with you, they'll keep right on driving and spending, so don't worry about that.

So, if you go car-free, who cares if 237 becomes a toll road? So you pay a little toll once in a great while when traveling by car, big whoop. Let the wage slaves driving to/from Antioch pay it lol.

See? Just talk about going car-free and end up in moderation.

It's Un-American!