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Credit without regard to cash flow


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2008 Jun 16, 11:53am   10,311 views  91 comments

by Patrick   ➕follow (55)   💰tip   ignore  

Hi Patrick,

I’ve been following your website with some interest. I am just curious about something. Will credit scoring finally be scrutinized as one of the primary causes of this problem with a host of loans now going bad? Everything from Fannie Mae to Freddie Mac to Subprime to Alt A and even Home Equity etc., was all primarily facilitated with the use of the “statistically significant” credit score, whereas such common sense practices as actually cash flowing the borrower to see if they could actually service this debt was abandoned or ignored altogether. Is anyone looking at this to bring this to light? I think people like Fair Isaac have a lot to answer for for getting all this in motion in the first place.

To me this is no different than Moody’s taking significant fees to assign AAA ratings to Subprime mortgage-backed pools of securities that were on their way to being worthless because again, cash flow underlying the ability to service those mortgages was not even considered. Clearly this was a conflict of interest at the time by Moody’s but the fox was already in the henhouse and nobody seemed to care. Now the common taxpayer (who still doesn’t understand this) will have to ultimately bail out entities like Bear Sterns, Countrywide and ultimately the Fed plus who knows how many more because proper cash flow analysis was ignored that if done properly would have never allowed these loans to get on the books in the first place.

Is anybody even looking at this as a core cause (ie, the fact that credit scoring is very much also to blame for this) or are they just looking at other stuff? It seems like someone should bring this point to the forefront and get the Fed looking at it, or Congress, or somebody for gosh sakes.

Just a thought.

Best regards and keep up the good work!

Dave Smith

#housing

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6   sa   2008 Jun 17, 4:42am  

OT:

Do anybody know a good site & model to buy scooter/moped online (50cc & under)? I would like to buy one for my office commute. I don't need to use a freeway.

Thanks.

7   Randy H   2008 Jun 17, 5:46am  

I'll sell you my 150cc '03 Aprilia Scarabeo. I've been thinking of getting rid of it for a while now. It's never been on the freeway even though it's just barely legal. But you'll want the extra hp for even El Camino Real type driving where folks regularly go from 0 to 45mph between stoplights. A 50cc is dangerous unless you're only driving it past schools when the crossing guards are out.

Mine is just like pictured except a dark wine red color & I have the tall windscreen.

8   Peter P   2008 Jun 17, 5:56am  

For city driving, you really need a vehicle with superb side-impact crash rating. A scooter is not safe at any speed.

If you only drive for short distances, it is better to get a used large sedan because gas is not going to cost much anyway.

9   Randy H   2008 Jun 17, 6:09am  

But scooters are a blast. lol. I really enjoyed commuting from Belmont to Redwood City back when I lived down there on my scooter. Of course an armored Suburban would have been safer, but you can stay reasonably safe on a scooter. Just assume that every single other human being in sight and out of sight is trying to kill you. That includes granny standing on the curb with her groceries.

10   Randy H   2008 Jun 17, 6:09am  

Of course I didn't mean to say that I 'lived on my scooter'; somewhere an English teacher is crying a tear.

11   EBGuy   2008 Jun 17, 6:28am  

sa:
For something a little different than the rest, try an eGo. No tailpipe emissions.

12   Peter P   2008 Jun 17, 6:39am  

RE: No tailpipe emissions.

Big diesel trucks have no tailpipe emissions. They have chimneys.

13   sa   2008 Jun 17, 6:59am  

Randy,

Thanks for the offer, I live a long way from El Camino Real (Bay Area). I lived around there during dot com boom.

Peter,

I live in a town of 12,000 people and it's relatively safe driving a scooter.

EBG,

I really need it to go 35-40mph, the only road alternate to freeway has a 40mph speed and it's single lane without a bike lane.

14   Peter P   2008 Jun 17, 7:31am  

I live in a town of 12,000 people and it’s relatively safe driving a scooter.

Still... please be vigilant, my friend.

I really need it to go 35-40mph, the only road alternate to freeway has a 40mph speed and it’s single lane without a bike lane.

See. And people drive too fast in those roads.

15   sa   2008 Jun 17, 7:39am  

Thanks for your concern peter. I really need to take a video and post it for you to get an idea of the traffic around here. It's very low traffic and people (if any) maintain a huge distance between cars. I barely see a few cars when i drive back and forth.

16   Peter P   2008 Jun 17, 7:46am  

furthermore, why can’t I have a say in who my bank loans money to?

Of course you have a say. But it is your bank only if you own a controlling stake of the bank.

17   Peter P   2008 Jun 17, 7:57am  

Talk to a lawyer.

18   justme   2008 Jun 17, 8:10am  

TOB, then you can *really* live up to your name :-).

19   Peter P   2008 Jun 17, 8:18am  

LOL!

20   EBGuy   2008 Jun 17, 8:23am  

TOB,
What about credit unions? Or are they not to be trusted?
justme,
Never have bought a new car, but I will stand in line for a diesel hybrid (go VW).
My bad on abusing catalyst -- how about energy dense, sacrificial membrane?

21   justme   2008 Jun 17, 9:22am  

EBGuy,

It may take a while. Maybe better just to get the clean diesel Jetta 2.0 TDI in September. I'll stand in line with you :-).

22   Peter P   2008 Jun 17, 9:29am  

The best way to clean up the air is to charge polluters a clean-up fee (NOT tax).

The market will then compel consumers to make the right choices.

23   GammaRaze   2008 Jun 17, 9:48am  

There would be no need to worry so much about who's to blame if the parties that make bad decisions also pay for it.

For instance, if a lender makes bad loans without proper research there is absolutely nothing wrong with that AS LONG AS they suffer the consequences and not the tax-payer.

What's good for the lender is also good for the borrower.

As long as rights and responsibilities go together, the market will figure things out.

In this particular question, say lenders were completely on the hook for the bad loans. And also suppose they were misled because they relied too much on credit reports, which are faulty. Well, they would learn their lesson and adjust the way they calculate risk in the future. They would rely less on credit score and pay attention to more things.

However, this is all in the ideal free-market scenario. Since we the tax-payers will end up bailing out both sides of the equation, no lessons will be learnt by lenders and the borrowers.

Tomorrow, if there is a bubble in something, say daisies, lenders will continue to make bad loans and borrowers will continue to make malinvestments because the "compassionate" government will bail them out using the average joe's hard-earned money.

24   ShortTermCapitalMgmt   2008 Jun 17, 10:07am  

In this particular question, say lenders were completely on the hook for the bad loans. And also suppose they were misled because they relied too much on credit reports, which are faulty. Well, they would learn their lesson and adjust the way they calculate risk in the future. They would rely less on credit score and pay attention to more things.

In many cases it wasn't even a matter of poor risk management technique. The players were simply motivated to game the system in any way possible to push the paperwork through and collect their commission.

STCM

25   Peter P   2008 Jun 17, 10:07am  

As long as rights and responsibilities go together, the market will figure things out.

Even with a highly distorted reality, the market will still figure things out. It will just be a bit messy.

I see the market as a manifestation of human actions and reactions. It is simply an extension to Nature.

26   GammaRaze   2008 Jun 17, 10:51am  

Peter, the market exists. In spite of all the machinations of the control freaks who come to power, as long as there is society, there is a marketplace. To that extent, I agree with you.

I am not sure about the market "figuring it out". Are you saying the best possible outcome will always be reached regardless of whether the marketplace is free or not. I find that hard to believe.

Force and coercion, in many other countries (and this one), have caused abject poverty. Until freedom happens, that situation doesn't get alleviated. That has been observation.

27   Malcolm   2008 Jun 17, 1:49pm  

TOB, just do what I do and lend through a broker. I get 12% on my money.

28   justme   2008 Jun 17, 2:55pm  

Malcolm,

care to elaborate on what kind of broker that is?

29   Peter P   2008 Jun 17, 4:04pm  

Are you saying the best possible outcome will always be reached regardless of whether the marketplace is free or not. I find that hard to believe.

In an imperfect market, the "best" outcome is always a moving target. So yes, it will not be reached. However, the market still tries to move towards some equilibrium point at all times.

30   Duke   2008 Jun 17, 11:07pm  

Oh ho.

My little speculations on EU vs. the Fed are now being detailed by smarter and better researched people. Go Mish!

Patricks link to: http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2008/06/central-banks-clash-over-monetary.html?ref=patrick.net

Notable comment, "The outcome of the 1992 deadlock was a major currency crisis and a recession in Europe."

Things are different now. The entire EU is up against the US and we are roughly equel in economic strength. However, the US massive outstanding debt in other regions curreys support for favorable US outcomes. I had always wondered if the EU could break through to become the dominant central banking force. The answers is now clear to me. We will repeat the early 1990s. Big recession in Europe, ironically a now slightly smaller recession in the US (but still a good ol character revealing, learn-how-to-budget-and-hope-you-don't-lose-your-job recession) and rising geo-politcal tensions where oil-producing nations re-learn that fast, large run-ups in oil are not in their best interest.
The key to long term US recovery will be how well we shift back to manufactoring. The belief is that capitalism will respond faster and thus blunt the worst of our version of Japan's 'lost decade.' I tend to agree, but we will need to undo the worst of the NAFTA abuses. We cannot outsource jobs to partners that do not follow the rules.

31   justme   2008 Jun 18, 1:43am  

Duke,

I read the link and the basic premise seems to be that a differential in interest rates between Europe and USA is causing some kind of stress on the "financial system". And Morgan Stanley wants ECB to lower their interest rate so that rate(FED)=rate(ECB), ideally.

But why will that help? I just don't see it. It is possible that MS has some self-interest in rate parity, but why is this so important. Why will the weak dollar cause inflation in Europe? It should be the other way around. Or is it the Oil/$ effect? I don't "get" the big picture here.

32   justme   2008 Jun 18, 2:28am  

Put in another way:

What is it a about interest rate disparity that implies that Fed and ECB are "squabbling", or that Europe and USA are "up against each other"? Does Mish explain that?

I have tried to read the comments to the article and did not find much explanation, really.

33   lunarpark   2008 Jun 18, 2:30am  

http://www.dqnews.com/News/California/Bay-Area/RRBay080618.aspx

Bay Area home sales return to record low in May

34   EBGuy   2008 Jun 18, 3:28am  

REO Speedwagon, from the DQ report:
Bay Area home sales return to record low in May
The impact was greatest in inland counties: Solano County's foreclosure resales were 57.6 percent of the resale market; in Contra Costa they were 43.3 percent and in Sonoma 26.6 percent. It was much different on the coast, where foreclosures resales were just 5.8 percent of the resale market in San Francisco and 4.5 percent in Marin County. Alt-A Bay is next...

FYI, az_lender on the HBB has a good business lending to those who live in manufactured homes...

35   DennisN   2008 Jun 18, 4:20am  

Since when is Sonoma an "inland county"? Or did you guys move it after I left the Bay Area?

36   Peter P   2008 Jun 18, 4:27am  

Since when is Sonoma an “inland county”? Or did you guys move it after I left the Bay Area?

Soon, Alameda County will be considered inland.

37   EBGuy   2008 Jun 18, 5:12am  

Anybody want to handicap today's TSLF auction? Its a Schedule 2 with $75 billion of Treasuries to swap. Last round (28 days ago), they got bids for ~$50 billion. I am guessing it should increase around $10 billion to $60 billion.

38   Duke   2008 Jun 18, 5:22am  

Justme,

I see the issue in the EU as this:
The rate differential is having the effect of making US consumers have to spend more dollars per same item exported from EU. This is on excahnge rate alone. We are printing lots of dollars. They are printing far fewer Euros. This means the EU export driven economy (or econmies) is really hurt as th US simply either stops buying their stuff or we ask them to discount it.
In a seperate issue it is true that a weak US dollar is helping fuel a global oil/food inflation spike. Since the high inflation in the EU is mostly restricted to food and fuel we are spiking inflation there. Sadly, and as Mish correctly points out, you cannot solve an oil/food inflation of this type with monatary tightening. So, higher rates are not solving the problem at all. In stead, you simply get business contraction. That's contraction on top of what you get from the ailing export problem.
In the end, it looks like the EU will pursue their (wrong) tight monetary policy and they will drive their economy into a recession. This is turn will help the US as most people in a recession are happy for work and tend to expect lower wages and lower standards of living. The US, who is due the same expectation, can offset some of their belt tightening with the belt tightening seen elswhere.
Now, if the rates moved in conjuction they would tend to avoid the differential problems. No brakes on economic expansion, no misguided attempts to 'control (the uncontrolable) inflaton' and less of a problem to their export industries.
In the end, we are seeing that the world is still very much tied to the US cnsumer. All of the theories about decoupling are proving to be very false. Or at least, no one is willing to test those theories.

39   justme   2008 Jun 18, 6:02am  

Duke,

Sounds like EU is against lose monetary policy and the associated bailouts. And the US are for the same items. Then who is "wrong"?

40   sa   2008 Jun 18, 6:35am  

Duke,

Thanks for explaining clearly.

Would US have similar issues if they were to raise rates and commodities demand doesn't drop off from rest of world?

41   justme   2008 Jun 18, 12:41pm  

Duke,

Another thought: It seems unlikely that ECB is just being dumb about keeping their interest rate higher and thereby hurting their export industry. And why would the US care, we should be more than happy to displace their export industry with our own goods.

There is something else going on here, or maybe it is just a storm in a teacup.

My guess is the former, but that the interested parties will not speak their true motivation. Can any one put their finger on what the real and conflicting motivations are? "Follow the money" is usually a good way to find out what is really going on.

An example of a possible hidden motivation: ECB could be amplifying the US dollar weakness by avoiding to cut their own rates, with the goal of displacing the dollar as the world reserve and oil trade currency. In the long run, pricing oil in Euro will give EU larger influence on world economic mattters.

I'm not saying this IS the motivation. I'm just bringing up one possibility.

43   Peter P   2008 Jun 18, 3:17pm  

RBS issues global stock and credit crash alert

I am sure a 25% drop in S&P 500 is very scary. :roll:

44   OO   2008 Jun 18, 4:04pm  

At some point, there will be a divergence of price for physical metals and paper metals. So I don't really worry about naked etf shorts. Owning physical gold and silver is quite easy, even if you have a substantial position. Even $100M worth of gold is manageable if you are serious about going physical, silver will be a challenge at that level though.

What I really worry about is agricultural bets, which can only be done through futures, forwards, derivatives, etfs, etns etc. If naked shorts happen there, I cannot possibly hoard N bushels of corn or soybeans myself.

45   DennisN   2008 Jun 18, 6:28pm  

Corn is going to go nuts with all the Iowa flooding.

All the farmers around here in Idaho pulled their land in from being fallow this year and planted lots of corn. I'll bet they make out like bandits this year.

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