patrick.net

Zlxr says

Public transportation doesn’t work so well out here in the suburbs because the buses are hard to get to and don’t run very often. It could work a lot better if we had guys in golf carts ferrying people to and from the bus stops. I see buses all the time with only 1 or 2 people on board and it has a lot to do with people not wanting to or being able to walk a mile or half mile to the bus stop and then stand around waiting all day for it to get there.

Public transportation does not work in low population density areas. I wish "progressives" would give up on that. The battle was lost when the city plans were laid.

Undeveloped countries manage to serve their rural and low density areas reasonably well. But the wages of their drivers are like $200-$400 a month, not $60K a year + bennies like a MUNI bus driver in San Francisco. And you get 38 people packed into a minivan. (Seriously, this happened to me 3 years ago in Guatemala) Share taxis are an everyday thing for most people in the world. If gas gets to $20/gallon (in real terms), I would not be surprised at all to see them in the USA.

Zlxr says

Our house prices = being what they are - make everything else more expensive.

I would argue our high pay makes rents & house prices so expensive.

Though I suppose in our complicated economy the push-pull relationship is variable depending on the job.

I'm all for the automobile lovers having their fun and enjoying their cars. Since I like to bicycle to work I don't like that I'm subsiding them by paying for their parking and roads.

Basic economics, have people pay for what they consume. Exceptions made for some public goods where necessary. Parking lots do not need to be a public good. Basic roads accessible to all forms of transport should be a public good. Freeways and other roads only usable by automobiles should be paid 100% by the users (including the truckers etc.).

MarkInSF says

Almost all of it. Most post-WWII cities were designed with an automobile as the assumed mode of travel.

Alright! Somebody payed attention in History class.

As far as how much does a car cost, not every body is dumb enough to pay 20-30K on hunk of junk that is not a "REAL" asset, and depreciates at the rate bread goes stale.
I don't pay over 5K for any car.

kiatoa says

I’m all for the automobile lovers having their fun and enjoying their cars. Since I like to bicycle to work I don’t like that I’m subsiding them by paying for their parking and roads.

So you ride your bike to work on dirt trails made by you?

Patrick, everything gets bundled into the cost for which goods are sold. Are we to believe that the costs associated with maintaining and cleaning rest rooms are heartlessly unfair to people that don't need to pee?

repo4sale says

-No Insurance Payments since I have a $35k deposit on Hold for California DMV (I keep %).

I've thought about doing this. So you're saying you get to keep any interest it earns? How does it work exactly? You deposit the money with the DMV somehow, and then you don't have to pay any car insurance? Getting your money back from the DMV seems like it could be hard if you change your mind.

Tenouncetrout says

I don’t pay over 5K for any car.

Hey, good for you, but it means you buy used cars. Somebody had to buy them new, right?
Actually, you need much more new car purchases to have enough dependable used cars available.

So, it may work for you (and me), but not for majority of people.

BTW, I found it's better to buy a new car for 13-15k than used one for 5k.

Usually those 5k used cars are those started braking down. It's often better to buy a car under 2k, since
most immediate defective things are already fixed in them. But it's a lottery, of course, and costs a lot of time.

ekaumheimer says

Patrick, everything gets bundled into the cost for which goods are sold. Are we to believe that the costs associated with maintaining and cleaning rest rooms are heartlessly unfair to people that don’t need to pee?

I think that the guy who started this thread was saying that the bunded cost of cars is very high and we are not given the option to avoid it. You can avoid a lot of those restroom costs, maybe even all of them.

But the car thing is almost like a vast right-wing conspiracy to ensure that car companies, oil companies, and paving companies are guaranteed millions of captive customers.

Tenouncetrout says

But every job requires a car. Do you really expect people with means of transportation to take the Bus?

Nope.
My office is in old town Pasadena, I rent in South Pasadena (2.5 miles from it). It's 40 minute walk, or
for lazy me - 7 min walk + 5-10 min waiting + 10 min bus ride +3 min walk = 25-30 min.
or 15-20 min driving (which includes getting into car, driving, parking and walking to the office).

Driving is the most expensive, unpleasant, and by far most unhealthy option.

I only do it once or twice a month. 99% of my driving is done on weekends and vacations.

ekaumheimer says

Patrick, everything gets bundled into the cost for which goods are sold. Are we to believe that the costs associated with maintaining and cleaning rest rooms are heartlessly unfair to people that don’t need to pee?

There are a lot of shops with no public restrooms, but practically none with no parking space.

CrazyMan says

So you ride your bike to work on dirt trails made by you?

As I said in my post I'm all for public goods being paid for by taxes. That includes most roads. Some roads, notably those that support *only* automotive traffic such as freeways should probably be 100% paid for out of gasoline taxes or similar.

I think it is interesting how strongly some auto enthusiasts respond when the subsidies they receive are threatened. I have no proof but I suspect that some of these are the same folks who get upset at taxes going to schools to pay for other peoples kids education. Just saying ...

Anyhow, why resist paying for parking? You are going to either pay directly or as a part of the goods and services you receive. What is the difference? After all ... TANSTAFL.

I ride my bike or walk to work :)

I do agree that auto-only roads should be paid by gas tax, and probably supplemented by shipping companies and the companies that use them, quite frankly.

I live in Pasadena and I do not drive that often. In fact, I only gas up my Honda Accord about once every 4 to 6 weeks because I walk to most everything I need. I bought a Yamaha 125 Vino scooter about 5 years ago and it gets 90 mpg, so I sometimes ride it for fun or to go to the other end of the city or Glendale. This city is very progressive when it comes to getting folks out of their cars. Condos and other projects are approved only if there is parking underground so there are not lots of cars parked on the street and the projects are mixed use to encourage walking and make neigborhoods walkable.

I was in SF about 5 years ago and noticed a good idea. They had taken car parking spaces and turned them into motorcycle/scooter parking. I took some pictures in SF and made a presentation to city hall and the parking commission telling them that it was a good idea for scooters/motorcycles here in Pasadena. I suggested they take one parking spot on each side of Colorado Blvd. and turn them into scooter/motorcycle parking only. They liked the idea so much that about 2 months later they had the stripes and signs saying "Motorcycle parking only" at each end of the central business district here in Old Pasadena.

I made the choice to live in a walking/biking city because that is the lifestyle I now enjoy. I walk to my doctor, dentist, hospital, a plethora of restaurants, CVS, Trader Joe's, Von's/Pavillions (Safeway co. for you folks in Northern CA) my barber, movies, plays, borders books, Macy's, Starbucks, banks, the symphony and just about everything else I could want and they are all within about 4 blocks. There are 2 Trader Joes and 2 Von's/Pavillions within 4 blocks in one direction and 6 blocks the other direction. The light rail train is only one block away if I want to go to LA or East. It's only a 20 minute light rail ride to LA's Union Station and then I enjoy taking Metro Link (equivalent to Caltrain) or Amtrak to San Diego for the weekend or San Juan Capistrano for lunch. Of course real estate is local and it's all about Location, location, location so there is a premium for convenience and sustainable urban living. The upside is that property values for most places have only dropped single digits here since the highs in 2006/2007.

When all of these new subdivisions and malls were being built in the ex-burbs and far flung areas such as the Inland Empire, Lancaster/Palmdale, Rancho Cucamonga, Fontana, Ontario, etc., I told friends and acquaintances that those beautiful, new subdivisions of today are the slums of tomorrow and I was right.....It's just happening a lot faster than I thought it would.

I lived in the East Bay and then in Northern Napa County for many, many years on acreage and I had to drive, drive, drive everywhere......to Sonoma County, North Bay Area, etc., and after so many years that got old. Some people like that country living and I did for the time I was there, but the older I got the bigger the property appeared. It is not that much cheaper to live in the country when you factor in gas, higher insurance premiums because of forest fire danger, wear and tear on a vehicle, heating costs, etc....I retired and I traded riding mowers, weed whackers and needing a car just to drive 40 minutes to the closest large retailer, Wal-Mart for a 180 lifestyle and I'm glad I did. Like I say, it's not for everyone, but I think it's the future.

repo4sale says

-No Insurance Payments since I have a $35k deposit on Hold for California DMV (I keep %).

I’ve thought about doing this. So you’re saying you get to keep any interest it earns? How does it work exactly? You deposit the money with the DMV somehow, and then you don’t have to pay any car insurance? Getting your money back from the DMV seems like it could be hard if you change your mind.

Liability insurance is cheap......I would recommend against having 35K with the DMV. That amount hasn't changed since the 70s. In the 70s you could buy a 4 bedroom home in a good neighborhood in Pinole for that amount of money. Now that wouldn't pay for the ambulance ride and a day in the hospital for the other guy if it's your fault. Even if it's not your fault, and you get sued, the insurance will provide the attorney's and everything else. I was personally sued once about 15 years ago for being a passenger in a car but my name was also on the title. The other guy ran a red light and we still got sued.......turned it over to the insurance company and their lawyers went to work. The piece of mind you get from having insurance is cheap in my opinion. A good lawyer, expert witnesses, court costs, etc. will cost you 35k if someone is seriously injured or killed and that's before any judgement is rendered. Why would you want to risk everything you've worked your entire life (or will make in the future) for if you are found at fault? If you buy or cars outright, or it's paid for maybe think about dropping the coverage to cash you out at Kelly Blue Book value because that is more costly than the liability insurance. The only person I can see getting the minimum insurance coverage or letting DMV have the Controller of the state hold the 35K is an elderly person with no chance of every going back to work, on social security and has absolutly NO assests to their name........basically living in poverty. You can find out more information in the vehicle code, section 16500.

michaelsch says

My office is in old town Pasadena,

So what you are really saying, is you would like communities around the country, take a more preservation and a Utopian approach to neighborhoods, in more townships around the country.
Because it happens to work in your gem, of town that happens to have jobs down the street.
But is it realistic to honestly think that every town in America has to follow that model? What about the people that service the Farmers, or the Farmers them selves, how do they get to market and connect the ends of their commerce Dots?

Oh, they have to move to your town, and we'll get our tasteless fruit from Guatamala.
Hey I got an Idea, why don't they all move to Old Pasadena, and drive up real estate and drive it down at the same time. Then jobs wont be so fancy come by at your door step, now would it Bike Boy?

michaelsch says

Tenouncetrout says

But every job requires a car. Do you really expect people with means of transportation to take the Bus?

Nope.
My office is in old town Pasadena, I rent in South Pasadena (2.5 miles from it). It’s 40 minute walk, or
for lazy me - 7 min walk + 5-10 min waiting + 10 min bus ride +3 min walk = 25-30 min.
or 15-20 min driving (which includes getting into car, driving, parking and walking to the office).
Driving is the most expensive, unpleasant, and by far most unhealthy option.
I only do it once or twice a month. 99% of my driving is done on weekends and vacations.

South Pas is very nice....prices have held up there very well also. I love the Farmer's Market at the Mission Street light rail station on Thursdays. Nice atmosphere and lots of friendly people there. I take the light rail 2 stops down from Del Mar Station and it seems like most folks at the Farmer's Market either walk or take public transportation.

The original posters idea is that every store must pay and maintain their own parking lots. If you're a Costco/Safeway/Sears/Walmart, you're most likely going to have 10X the size of your building, just for parking. If you didn't have to lease *ALL* that land, pay to clean it, and maintain it, how much would goods be inside? If you forced people to pay for parking instead, how much could you lower your costs?

I'm guessing not by much, otherwise we would see cheap places, lowering their prices and tossing in a "parking" fee. If you don't want to use their parking, use street, buses, walk there, etc. Since we don't see that, it's likely not a huge burdeon. I can't see walmart not finding a way to eek out an extra 2% savings.

For the comment on electricity to charge cars, that is easy. We have enough "night time" electricity to charge 85% of our current cars on the road, if they were converted to electric over night. Charging during the day would be a no-no, unless you absolutely had to have it. All of these electric cars get plugged in and don't start charging until the power rates are lower. Where you could see a decent drop in your power bill, is if you had a 100% electric vehicle that would power the grid during the day, and charge at night. Essentially, you come home from work, turn on the a/c, stove, tv, etc and it draws power from your car. When night time rolls around and your batteries are near empty, they are fully recharged at the super low night time rate.

Yes!

If everybody realized their home economics should be treated as a business, they would do better.

It may be GREEN but to us it is just a much better lifestyle worth working toward if you are not yet off the corp. grid.

Mary Kay at PersonalSecurityZone.com

Intriguing post. I have a car, but mostly I walk or ride the bus. So in some sense, I am subsidizing other people's free parking when I walk to the grocery store.

But why does the grocery store offer free parking? It's not a vast right-wing conspiracy. Really, it's just business: People buy more stuff if they don't have to walk home with it. They just load up their carts, and so they get everything that looks good; then it all fits in the car. So it's great for business to make it convenient for people to buy too much stuff.

That doesn't mean that it provides the best value to the customers--businesses usually don't try to do that. They try to maximize profits. And one of the easiest ways to increase profits is to get people to buy more stuff by making it easy for them to do so.

Personally, I made the mistake once of picking up 50 pounds of flour at the grocery store 2 blocks away, and then walking home with it. I won't be doing that again anytime soon.

Tenouncetrout says

michaelsch says

My office is in old town Pasadena,

So what you are really saying, is you would like communities around the country, take a more preservation and a Utopian approach to neighborhoods, in more townships around the country.

I never mentioned "mare preservation etc.. Where did you get this?

Because it happens to work in your gem, of town that happens to have jobs down the street.

Being a renter I always was free to move to a reasonable neighborhood close to my current work-place that's all.

But is it realistic to honestly think that every town in America has to follow that model? What about the people that service the Farmers, or the Farmers them selves, how do they get to market and connect the ends of their commerce Dots?

If you are a farmer or similar or provide services in the country, of course you better have your own house and yard and car, and truck, and whatever you need. But, if you keep an urban job, better live urban life.

80% of Americans don't get it. They prefer suburbs and exurbs with their own cars to go literally everywhere.

In a way, I'm glad they do, otherwise I would have to pay much higher rent, the same way you should be glad there are enough idiots buying $20k-$30k new cars to provide you with reliable used ones under $5k.

michaelsch,

I'm descended from multi-generations of Oklahoma wheat farmers.

Some of them, including my grandfather, lived in town. LIved in town so the kids could walk to school and the spouse could walk to shopping and work. The family vehicle, the truck, was multipurpose commute out to the acreage and utility vehicle on the job. Even kept a few cattle out there on someone's pastureland. A percentage of the farmers, particularly the ones who farmed at night and had day jobs, lived in town, still do. Farmers who live in the country or who have garages or other space out would share their spaces to park/store equipment, sometimes for some small rent or else some other consideration.

When they got some extra money, because after all the spouse lived in town and could manage to walk to work for a cash job after the kids started attending school, they were able to get a sedan, for weekend trips or whatever.

10 ounce,

every town in America can follow any model it wants to.

If they wanna totally depend on affordable gasoline, or the 40K or whatever to get an electric car, or leaders like Pappy Bush to make war for petrol, or companies like BP to mine it in our wetlands, or the ability of its residents to spend a lot of money on a depreciating vehicle (or high maintenance cost on an already depreciated vehicle) instead of using it for investing or nicer housing or tuition or even frivolity; if they wanna depend on all their residents and workers being able to maintain, operate, insure, fuel and drive a vehicle, (even if they get a medical diagnosis where they cannot drive) to maintain their town as an ongoing entity, more power to 'em.

I don’t pay to park period, That’s what I pay taxes for.
I damn sure ain’t paying to park where I work.

If you're not paying the costs associated with your parking space, then who is? Somebody owns that space and has to maintain it.

Why should your employer provide this to you for free? The cost of parking should be borne by all employees or taxpayers equally, regardless of their ability to make use of parking, and those who want parking should have it, at no cost to them? "To each according to their needs"?

Communism doesn't work, and never has.

And I’m sorry you lost your license, your car got repoed or you can’t afford gas anymore.

There's no license to lose or car to get repoed. If you'd read my post, you would see that my eyesight isn't good enough to drive a car safely.

But every job requires a car. Do you really expect people with means of transportation to take the Bus?

"Every job requires a car" ... can be said with impunity, while "every employee must be white" is an assault on modern sensibility. What gives you the right to make a statement as bigoted as the hypothetical second one? They both exclude capable people from the workplace and from society due to something they were born with.

@Hyperbole -- I agree on the point that the stores want people to buy more. But they could do the same thing by offering free delivery for large purchases. My local supermarket (in Tokyo, where there's no parking, and there are many elderly who can't even walk there) offers this service. They could never sell 50 pounds of flour if they didn't offer this, and your supermarket would be able to sell such quantities to everyone (not just the drivers) if they did too.

One of the other things Shoup mentions in his book is that town ordinances often mandate certain amounts of parking.

Mandatory parking in residential areas also means that stores, residences, and workplaces are further apart than they should be. I'm not finished with the book yet, but I hope he also touches on the loss of community that comes from mandating lower population density.

if they wanna depend on all their residents and workers being able to maintain, operate, insure, fuel and drive a vehicle, (even if they get a medical diagnosis where they cannot drive) to maintain their town as an ongoing entity, more power to ‘em.

@Sybrib -- It's easy to say "more power to" a society like that if it's possible for you to join it. How would you feel if your job relocated to a community that you weren't permitted to live in (for whatever reason), and you had to quit your job?

It baffles me how the political correctness movement and movements to empower minorities and handicapped people overlook automobile centrism so totally.

At a typical shopping center or place of employment, the best parking spaces will be reserved for the physically handicapped, so that they don't have to endure walking that last 100-200 feet from their parking space to the store. But these people can easily drive however many miles it might be from their homes to the parking lot!

Contrast that with the person who's fully capable of walking that 100 feet, but can't take an automobile to the store to begin with. Society does nothing for that person. Is that person's "handicap" not in fact greater than the handicaps that we recognize in law and in custom?

Michinaga says

I don’t pay to park period, That’s what I pay taxes for.
I damn sure ain’t paying to park where I work.

If you’re not paying the costs associated with your parking space, then who is? Somebody owns that space and has to maintain it.

Oh brother, do you carry the chair you sit in every where you go? Bring a fork and plate to the diner? Bring your own Grocery bags to the Groce...ery...stor...

Oh never mind, I forgot I'm conversing with smug Californians, that don't feel they are worthy of any damn thing but taxes, and a short list of Liberties.

Oh brother, do you carry the chair you sit in every where you go? Bring a fork and plate to the diner? Bring your own Grocery bags to the Groce…ery…stor…

TOT, you're mising the point. No one is legally barred from sitting in a chair or making use of a fork and plate like they are with automobiles.

You see parking as a tiny, insignificant cost, on the order of restaurant cutlery; it's not.

Here's a cutlery analogy for you. Imagine you work for a company that has a sumptuous "free" cafeteria that's run by Asians and the delicious traditional food has to be eaten with chopsticks. The funds to run the cafeteria come out of the company coffers, but only chopstick-users are allowed to enter.

And then another rule is enacted that says that non-Asians like yourself are banned from picking up a pair of chopsticks and learning to use them. (OK, so this is unrealistic. Just bear with me.)

How do you feel about the cafeteria now?

This is how people unable to drive feel about automobile-centric communities and companies.

(And I actually do bring my own bag to the grocery store, because they knock 5 cents off your purcahse price if you save them a bag by doing so. But I'm happy to pay full price if I can't be bothered to bring my bag.)

Michinaga, sorry to hear that your eyesight is not good enoungh to drive. The thing is you're in Japan, and we're in US. Our situation is greatly differ from each other and thus, expect different answers and little misunderstanding since we've never experienced some of those situations here in US. Yeah, I heard something about it. Customers in some countries have pay for plastic bag in the grocery. That's just plain simple outrageous in US, while it's a simple reality in Japan.

But at least, you're lucky to live in Tokyo where public transportation options are abundant. Imagine if you live in rural area and have to commute to Tokyo everyday, and there's no sincancen station near you. You're pretty much screwed w/o a car.

US is simply little too big and wide to live without a car. You can be screwed even with a car. Not too often though.

I knew this guy who commute to washington DC from Pittsburgh PA. It took 3 hours to drive, and he did that for 3 years. Then he rented apartment in DC, commute from there, go back to Pittsburgh at weekend. I'd say, what the hell, just move here or get a job in Pittsburgh. He can't do that for some reason I don't know. A couple live in Martinsburgh WV, commute to DC everyday. It's like a 60 miles, so they had to wake up early, get their sleepy asses to the car and start hit the road before the beltway gets bumper to bumper.

Ok, screw them. It's fine to me if that's what they have to do for whatever reason they choose.
To me, I got my part of problem too. I can drive, but the wife can't due to some medical issues. She has to commute DC everyday for work, and public transportation is her only option. So, "within walking distance to the public transportation" is the critical concern to me when I look for the place to live. I had to let lots of good deals slip away from me due to the reason alone. I hated condo, I wanted to have SFH with backyard. I worked and saved like hell for years, and finally able to afford a SFH in location where I wanted to live, but I am seriously considering condo right next to subway station. That's freakin WTH situation. Did I say I hate train noise too?

There're plenty of ackward situations when you look arround. Many people got some sort of situation, disability, unaffordability or reason that prevent them do something. But the thing is, who cares? That's their problem. Do they give you a rat ass about your situation? Not really. When that happens in national level, shame indeed. But not sure what they can do about it.

Hey drivers pay for it, Please stop yer Liberal self absorbed lies.
I know it makes you sound hip and smart, but only because those people that think so, don't bother to check.

Florida registered Cars in 2008 = 15,000,000
Florida Registration fees on average = $50.00
Revenue Florida receives each year for road upkeep and repair = $750,000,000

Now mind you that's just one year.

In three years Florida has collected 2,250,000,000. This doesn't include, Fines and Tolls revenue, which I bet shadows that by many 0's.

I expect triple that in California, how many fees do you have?

Michinaga says

And then another rule is enacted that says that non-Asians like yourself are banned from picking up a pair of chopsticks and learning to use them. (OK, so this is unrealistic. Just bear with me.)

I would use my Chop sticks and pick that person's eyes out with them, and dip them in my Soy sauce, pickled ginger, Wasabi, and Sarichi sauce. Some of us Non Asians will try anything if you put enough yum on it.

SO your In Japan. Those Asian island countries the biggest expense next to drinking, is driving.
I bet it costs hundreds if not thousands for yearly car registrations, and they pay heavy for every where they park.

I don't drive at all, never learned. Grew up taking mass transit and still do. It depends on where you live, I'm sure. Some cities we've lived in that had few or no mass transit routes, I was at a real disadvantage and/or we had to drive everywhere.

In my case it is really no more expensive to live in the city than out a ways, (just comparing rents/house prices). We do not live in a downtown luxury townhouse or anything, just a regular neighborhood in the city. I'm near several really useful bus routes, and can get pretty much anywhere I want to go by bus/train, and I can walk to most ordinary errands like the grocery store. I have a personal shopping cart so I can haul a lot of groceries. Walking is good exercise.

My spouse started taking the bus to work instead of driving which saves us about $200 mo in gas alone, compared to when we lived in a city with no mass transit. Plus, the savings is even more when you consider we have less wear and tear on the car. High cost maintenance/repairs will be put off for years compared to how soon it'd be necessary if we drove every day.

So, for driving to make more economic sense, we'd have to find a house to rent or buy that would represent a monthy savings, when you added up all considerations, of probably $300 a month. We could not get a house like we're renting now for $300 less. And, if such a house existed I bet it would not be near all the conveniences, so it'd probably have to be more than $300 mo less to really make sense.

sybrib says

michaelsch,
I’m descended from multi-generations of Oklahoma wheat farmers.
Some of them, including my grandfather, lived in town. LIved in town so the kids could walk to school and the spouse could walk to shopping and work. The family vehicle, the truck, was multipurpose commute out to the acreage and utility vehicle on the job. Even kept a few cattle out there on someone’s pastureland. A percentage of the farmers, particularly the ones who farmed at night and had day jobs, lived in town, still do. Farmers who live in the country or who have garages or other space out would share their spaces to park/store equipment, sometimes for some small rent or else some other consideration.
When they got some extra money, because after all the spouse lived in town and could manage to walk to work for a cash job after the kids started attending school, they were able to get a sedan, for weekend trips or whatever.

OK, but I'm not talking about people living in small towns and doing some farming or forestry or any such work. Of course when living in small towns it makes sense to have a single family house with large yard and do at least some gardening and to have cars and trucks. But how many Americans today live outside huge metropolitan areas? 10%? For sure, not more than 15%. Sure enough more in Oklahoma, so what?

There are almost 20 million people living in Southern California. How many of them do any open space work? May be 1 million, and most of those are illegal immigrants. For the rest cars and SUVs are just for commute. BTW, before 2006 MOST of cars on the road here were SUVs. You know why? Because they were subsidized as agricultural vehicles.

John Bailo says

Non-car living is an expensive boutique lifestyle. The dwindling number of urbanites who want to live in the few remaining high density downtowns use every trick in the book to tax the rest of us to fund their decadent lifestyle. Light rail, trolleys, infrastructure — every tax-laden scam imaginable is used under the banner of some phony Green or Environmental label.
Low density suburbs are cleaner, more environmental, and more efficient for the transport of goods than any city. The use of the car to make the last mile is FAR more efficient than cramming in goods on trucks to tiny charcuteries in Manhattan.

Pure nonsense. Have you been to so called Inland Empire? There are about 4 million people living there. It's not cleaner than even Downtown LA not mentioning places like Pasadena. With the exception of Detroit and Kansas city I think all American inner cities nowadays are cleaner than many large suburbs around them.

michaelsch,

maybe you missed my point. Yes, a truck is a necessity to be a farmer. But just for the commercial aspect of farming. As a matter of fact, a small farmer's pickup truck in OKla used to be licensed as a commercial vehicle (maybe it still is?). But a farmer who lives in town doesn't need any other wheels.

When I was looking for a home to buy and live in during the 1980's, being in walking distance to public transit was a requirement for me, even though I commuted to my job in at car at the time.... because you just never know what can happen to make driving impractical. What has happened in the past 20 years was that driving has become more expensive, traffic has got worse, and public transit schedules have become more convenient: it is actually faster (and cheaper) than driving now.

10 ounce,

my California registration, including recent price increases, is about $400 per year on the 2008 model, $300 per year on the 2006 model, $125 on the year 2001 model and about $100 per year on the 2000 model. These are fixed costs and are negligible compared to the variable costs of operating the vehicles, which averages about 27 cents per mile. Turns out that the Prius is no cheaper per mile than the non-hybrid Camry, because an honest costing of it will amortize the $4000 replacment cost of the battery over the expected lifetime. (The Prius, even though it is Hip and Cool, is a stupid concept).

But with my transit pass, the variable cost of my public transit commute is about 8 cents per mile.

You can sticks and stones all you want about the registration cost in California, but if you do the math, the variable costs of fuel (that we make war for, and that we pollute the Gulf for), and the maintenace of the vehicle, swamps out the fixed cost of the registration, whether it's in low-cost Florida or high-cost Cal.

Michigana,

Yes, "more power to them".

Those people are becoming slaves of their possessions and are tended to be paranoid about....

...gas prices .... the traffic ...... the car breaking down....... etc.

People drive cars because mass transit is often inconvenient or non-existent. In many suburuban communities, the trains and busses only run once an hour in between the AM and PM rush hours. Miss the train by 3 minutues? I hope you have a book to read because you have a logn wait ahead of you. And don't think that your wait will only be 57 minutues long because if there is a delay, you could easily wait an hour and 20 minutues.

This is true. I have access now to decent mass transit but that's not always been the case. Using mass transit requires more planning but it sure makes you punctual.

Cities often cut mass transit funding at exactly the time when more/better transit is needed. Like when gas goes up or the economy tanks.

For those unfortunate people who've lost their middle finger to amputation, they can't drive at all and must rely on transit. ;-)

HousingWatcher says

People drive cars because mass transit is often inconvenient or non-existent. In many suburuban communities, the trains and busses only run once an hour in between the AM and PM rush hours. Miss the train by 3 minutues? I hope you have a book to read because you have a logn wait ahead of you. And don’t think that your wait will only be 57 minutues long because if there is a delay, you could easily wait an hour and 20 minutues.

Mass transit makes little sense, since employers over the course of a few years always move to another location. This has been true time and time again in the Bay Area. Add to that the high count of employers failures and M&A activity, mass transit becomes fruitless local government spending over the long run. It doesnt pay!

Of course some people around here really over do it, with SUVs and Benzs, guzzeling gas like drunken sailors. But that is elitist egos gone amoke.