patrick.net

Forget about foreclosures, there isn't enough equity in them to buy at phase one (from the buyer) which is usually the best way to buy. Why bother to buy REO's right now, buying now will only buffer the crash. For gods sake we waited long enough for the crash to begin, why not wait for the end. So take your shoes off, kick back in that nice comfortable sofa and watch "As the market crashes" on the tube and thank god you weren't one of the poor statistics that will be taking the biggest finacial asskicking of their pitiful life!

Why bother to buy REO’s right now, buying now will only buffer the crash.

allah,

This is a "forward-looking" thread. Note the term "POST-Bubble". I agree we're only in the beginning phases of the crash and we have a loooong ride down to the bottom.

I have a thought. Bare with me, I might be off the wall, but how about this:

If the market gets anywhere near as bad as many of you think it will, and it becomes an exaggerated buyer's market, then would there be an opportunity to create some kind of buyer's aggregate?

Essentially, a reverse on the multiple bids of the past. Instead of one ASK and multiple BIDS, how about one BID and multiple ASKS.

With a little bit of cleverly designed web thisandthat, we could create a buyers auction tool. As a buyer, you would offer up a BID of what you want to pay, and then tick off a bunch of common attributes that you demand for that bid. Obvious things like school district, BR, BA, all the normal MLS listed stuff. You can be as narrow or as wide as you want.

Then sellers throw in ASKing prices, and describe their properties according to your search attributes. Of course, you'd have to visit each property, but the sellers would be trying to entice you to come to their property with everything they can fit into your demanded attributes, most obviously being price.

The most attractive part is that the way transaction custom and law works, there is nothing preventing you the buyer from being as discriminatory as you want, or selecting any ASK you want for any price, even if you choose to raise or lower it without telling other sellers.

Also, you could sit there as a buyer without an agent, just a RE attorney, and put a lot of pressure on the sell-agent or seller to give on commission in terms of price you pay. The seller will be pissed about paying commission anyway because their agent won't have done much of anything to sell the home in this scenario...the seller will have to do the active ASK offers (I doubt agents would comply).

-- OK, maybe this is fundamentally flawed, but I'd love to hear if there's anything here. And, it would require a substantial BUYER'S market to work, otherwise sellers just ignore the whole shebang.

But then I always aspired to be a Good Witch.

I just wanted to be a good astrologer and/or feng shui master. :)

We will all soon be buying from our friendly neighborhood RTC (Resolution Trust Corporation that is). I remember the last time they were around I was very young and had no money and they were giving houses away for pennies on the dollar. Now my pockets are loaded and I'm waiting for their arrival which I predict will be here before the end of 2007. Look at this 31% of the people who took this poll are either realthors or speculators.

"FB" = "F@cked Borrower".
Term originally coined by SoCalMortgageGuy from the Ben Jones blog. He now has his own RE Bubble blog: http://anotherfuckedborrower.blogspot.com/

And btw, DL = David LIAR-eah
BB = Ben Bernanke, aka "Heli-Ben"

@skibum,

Can you still receive mail sent to your old email address? If so, I'll send you my email address, you reply with your new one & I'll do it for you.

OT, but just another point on the whole "properties are still going over asking" crap that Trolls and Newsletter authors are pushing.

I looked at and followed the home below, which is now in escrow for the 3rd time, and then tracked it for many months.

If it closes, it will show that it sold for 100% of list, at $1,395K in their "data".

I know for a fact that this home was listed for a maximum of $1,495K, because this buyer kept RAISING his price in successive relistings when it didn't sell. Each time he did some minor improvement, like re-sodding the yard, then relisted at a higher price.

I am encouraged to see that he finally has had to DROP from ORIGINAL LIST to get a firm offer.

BTW, this should go in their "data" as sold for 93% of list. (IMO it should have sold for about 65% of list, but that's another story).

--data--

Original Price: $1,395,000
Current Price: $1,399,000
City: Corte Madera
Address: 61 Granada Dr

MLS#20606266
Type: Single Family Home

Cross St.: El Camino
Directions: Paradise Dr., R. El Camino, L. Granada
Bedrooms: 5
Full Bathrooms: 3
Partial Bathrooms: 1
Listing Date: 02/28/2006
Yr Built: 1958

Interior Square Footage: 2462
Lot Square Footage: 6316
View: Yes
Fireplace: Yes
Pool: Yes
Garage: Yes

BTW, this should go in their “data” as sold for 93% of list. (IMO it should have sold for about 65% of list, but that’s another story).

IMO it shouldn't have sold at all!

Talked to a guy that just sold his house. He said that the houses that are nearby for sale are asking $828,000, and they are sitting, so he decided to ask $779,000. He got 2 offers for $785,000 the next day, then they both came back with offfers of $792,000, he just picked one. Now it will look like it sold for overs asking, but really he dropped the price by $49,000. This is in the 95124 area.

I went to UT Austin (McCombs) - Austin is a great city, just not quite as multicultural as SF or NYC yet, and still feels like a small place. Enchanted Rock a fun place to go, so is lake austin and i love Trudi's! But the heat...

but really he dropped the price by $49,000.

Actually, he dropped it by $36k

Going to foreclosure auctions is a bad idea if you are not doing it for living.

You have no idea what the true value of the house is, know little about the legal pitfalls and paperwork, and the disgruntled homedebtor may decide to sarbotage the home just before they leave, or you may get competitive at the court house subsiding to the adrenaline rush...

When the market tanks, you will have plenty of chances to pick and choose. Leave the foreclosure stuff to the professionals.

I think just as a rule of thumb, don't buy any subdivision built after 2003, and particularly those built AFTER the market turns.

This has happened multiple times overseas, and I don't see why US will be an exception. What typically happens elsewhere is, after the market turns, the developers have to cut back significantly on areas that you don't see to make up for the price reductions. So they may substitute lower grade water pipes for more durable ones, cut corners on insulation, basically anything that you cannot inspect with naked eyes during a walk-through.

Those built in the most bubblish times are of inferior quality because they are hurried to the market.

LILLL,

In a normal market that is the best way to buy a foreclosure. You find someone in distress and you find out how much equity they have. Then you make a deal with them taking a good part of their equity and leaving them with something so they can start over and not have their credit destroyed....but when they have no (or negative)equity in the house, because they used a no-down-payment-suicide loan, you cannot make a deal with them. In fact, there was an article recently about how these foreclosure tycoons are having to tell most of the people that call them that they cannot help them due to low/no/negative equity. If I come across that article I will post it.

allah,

what I am particularly concerned with is, those who will have to go upside down on their homes in this environment typically don't care about their credit record or future life any more, because there won't be any.

How do you stop the disgruntled home debtors from sarbotaging the home? I mean, if I decide to sarbotage my home before I move out, there are a few things I can do without alerting the inspector.

KurtS,

Most of what lists in that neighborhood are "me too" listings, and way overpriced for the value, even given a bubble mentality. I suspect those older, poorly maintained homes will get hard during the correction.

Then again, when I see one pop on at substantially less than the overpriced me-toos, it sells in days. I guess these are the smart sellers, using the other delusional sellers to anchor their price.

This is actually why I am skeptical of claims that prices will fall in anything other than a slow, jerky, sticky, uneven and unpredictable manner. I wouldn't be surprised to see this particular CM neighborhood go flat for a couple of years before really declining substantially, and maybe only by 15% then.

those who will have to go upside down on their homes in this environment typically don’t care about their credit record

Alot of them had no credit before they purchased the house.

How do you stop the disgruntled home debtors from sarbotaging the home? I mean, if I decide to sarbotage my home before I move out, there are a few things I can do without alerting the inspector.

Houses usually do get sabotaged before they go into foreclosure. Usually it happens when they are struggling to make the payments and they are fighting with each other because one of them regrets letting their spouse buy the house. They fight, kick holes in the walls, break glass....it's not a pretty site. It is not all physical damage though, it is lack of maintainence also. Ever been through some foreclosed houses? The inside of the house tells quite a story!

If you buy from someone before they go into foreclosure, you are helping them. There should be no reason for vindication. One thing you can do though is keep their money in escrow with a contingency until they actually leave.

Randy,

So far, my observation is, school district seems to be the most important support factor for certain neighborhoods.

Lots of inflated homes out there no doubt, but some neighborhoods move much faster than others. Down in South Bay, Palo Alto and Cupertino seem to be the two holding up the best in terms of transaction and price. Saratoga is doing quite ok as well, for the LG-Saratoga Union high school district. There is a big difference between parts of Los Gatos that fall in the LG-Sa school district and the part with Campbell/San Jose. I went to a couple of open houses with better school districts, no shortage of eager parents.

I suspect that up the peninsula, Hillsborough, Marin may be seeing the same thing. It seems that RE these days all boils down to school districts.

Randy,

get hard during the correction and slow, jerky, sticky

Sounds funny.

You don't seem to be much of a bubblehead at all. Why do you believe real estate will be sticky given the enormous runnup with time-bomb loans and an already all-time-high inventory? Remember, sticky can only happen when sellers take their houses off the market because they can't get their price....when people don't have that opportunity, they must sell or foreclose.

allah,

I'd say it depends on the neighborhood. Maybe there are more smart bubblesitters than we realize, or just flat out more wealthy people to go around, for a few select spots in the Bay Area.

I think we discussed this a while back with Fewlish, SP. I still maintain that for certain desirable pockets of South Bay where annual properties on the market may be less than 1,000 combined, I don't see a 2200sf-on-15000sf home dropping below 1.2 or 1.3M. That price point may have turned out to be a permanent plateau for such homes. Now they are asking for 1.5-1.7M, so still a 20% drop, but not much more than that.

So far, my observation is, school district seems to be the most important support factor for certain neighborhoods.

To me, trees are more important.

I went to a couple of open houses with better school districts, no shortage of eager parents.

When is the deadline to register for school this fall?

Any nice neighborhoods with bad school districts? I really do not care much about school. Safety is far more important.

i have a feeling that good school districts will not hold up in the near future without major local tax hikes. Boomers will prevent this from happening.

All of a sudden I’m not having much difficulty visualizing buyers asking their realtors “Don’t show me ANYTHING that was purchased in 2005″.

Don’t show me anything purchased in 2004.
Don’t show me anything purchased after 2000!

Absolutely. Make that 1985, since housing almost doubled as fallout from the 1987 stock market crash. 1971 would be even better.

Having found the mythical 1985 purchaser, I would draw a line gradient on a graph from the 1985 price where y/x=averaged annual CPI and draw a little X where it intercepts 2006 and make an offer accordingly.

it gets worse!

Randy H Says: I have a thought. Bare with me...

there IS a nudist beach near here, i suppose :oops:

John,

most of these folks buying into the traditional blue-ribbon areas are trade-ups rather than first time buyers (well, we also have stock market lottery winners from time to time, although they are harder to come by these days).

Most people buying 1M+ properties are not first time buyers, and as long as they can unload their condos/THs/beginner homes to true beginners, they just plough in their equity into their next home.

Also, the homes available in these select pockets are quite limited, compared to the number of people who desire to move there, for schools, or prestige, or safety, whatever.

I do think we are entering a phase in history that there will be a wider dividing line between the haves and have nots. Walmart is suffering, Tiffany's, LVMH are having record sales growth. High-end retailers like Abercrombie & Fitch are all doing well. If you try to book an European tour with Tauck, it is not possible to secure a seat unless you do so half a year ahead.

Will this trend reverse? I am not sure if it will within our lifetime, although I dislike it just as much as the next guy.

Also, there is an article in BW earlier about the highest earners of this country have seen their annual earnings grow by 350%+ in the last decade while most people only saw a single-digit increase. Numbers may be slightly off, but you get the picture.

DS,

I stand corrected. I always get "bare" and "bear" wrong. There should be a third spelling of that damned word.

allah,

You don’t seem to be much of a bubblehead at all. Why do you believe real estate will be sticky given the enormous runnup with time-bomb loans and an already all-time-high inventory? Remember, sticky can only happen when sellers take their houses off the market because they can’t get their price….when people don’t have that opportunity, they must sell or foreclose.

Prices are already well into a phase of demonstrated stickiness. I ensure you that there are plenty of recent buyers who are not FBs. I realize that homes are priced on the margin, but homes are not easily direct substitutes for one another either. Differences in neighborhoods, and more importantly the wealth profile who tend to self segregate into those neighborhoods, is a stark intrinsic value discriminator.

Anecdotally, I work with many of the folks who have traded up 1,2,3 times into $2Mish homes, yet they also have well over 50% equity stakes and pay little more than they did on their starter condos years ago. We're talking about owneroccupiers who are paying maybe 12% AGI to PITI. We were paying about 14% before we sold in 2004.

These people will not sell if prices correct by 50% unless forced to by non-financial motives; things like moves for family or better career opportunities elsewhere (which will need to be even that much better to compensate for the hit they'll take on their sale).

This is all moot anyway. RE transactions are sticky almost by definition anyway because of the non-liquid nature of the market and quite substantial transaction frictions. The time-lag to RE transactions alone causes a high degree of marginal pricing stickiness.

And I'm not a bubble-head; and I'm proud of that. I am a rational market observer who has come to the conclusion that most residential real-estate in this area is overpriced and will revert to mean. No faith there at all. Just logical deduction.

JH,

Like I said though, I still cant believe these people are in for more than 70% equity.

I work with a lot of folks who have 70% equity stakes in $2M+ homes. We had 60% in the home we sold in '04, and we are not that special. Lots of folks are smart with their money.

--Also, there is an article in BW earlier about the highest earners of this country have seen their annual earnings grow by 350%+ in the last decade while most people only saw a single-digit increase. Numbers may be slightly off, but you get the picture.--

So if the US’s median house is at 220K, but the salaries are stuck at the level they were 5-10 years ago, how can these folks afford to buy the drastically higher priced homes?

The FT had some of the same data (along with the evidence that US corporations now constitute the largest portion of global output since WWII, and earnings of US corps are growing faster than anytime since 1947; which is astounding when you factor in the size of today's global economy and ferocity of competition. In 1947 lots of our main competitors today were still smoldering.)

The distribution is bimodal. That explains nearly all of your dilemma. There is a secular shift occurring in the structure of asset ownership in the US. It is quite possible to end up in a situation where real-estate is permanently higher than median affordability. Many European countries provide real-world examples of such, because they have permanently bimodal wealth structures.

I don't want this to happen to the US, but that's the answer to the scary fundamental driving some of this (the non-speculative part).

Are they on fixed loans? Why would they want to trade up into these properties with a new huge tax load?

Yes, fixed loans. Often well engineered to amortize aggressively. Why? Because they make that 350% referred to above, so their marginal dollar is worth far less than those stuck on the other side of the divide. That's what salary inflation does in a bimodal model. I know people in corporate finance who have seen their salaries balloon by 50-70% since 2001; and these are middle-managers not execs. The execs make obscene coin.

I know price stickiness pisses people off. I would just like you who insist it's not going to be sticky this time to consider this, please:

Every single RE downturn has exhibited sticky prices in the past. SO, if you're arguing it is "different this time", then you're arguing for a "new paradigm". Yet, you bristle whenever anyone suggests other "new paradigms" which you don't agree with.

So, if your new paradigm whereby now RE is no longer sticky holds, then you have to either

a) prove it with consistent theory, or
b) disprove alternative paradigms you don't like instead of just labeling them "new paradigms" and dismissing them.

Consistency is a bitch.

JH,

LOL, you're talking about my wife, btw. Regardless, I'll let your statements stand on their own. Invest in a public company with weak corporate finance, accounting and control at your own peril.

Is OO the same old owneroccupier ?

News,

I agree that we are coming to the end of a tremendous corporate earnings growth cycle, in fact the strongest in 50 years. We are due for a recessionary period.

The question is whether rising US corporate dominance -- which is tremendous, I'll dump some data I read this week below -- was just a strong cycle or represents a secular trend that will last for decades. I can find reason to justify both outcomes, depending upon how "macro" I look at things.

--

2001: US corps represented 7% of global output
2005: 12.2%. many times higher than any other single country, and growing at a rate an order of magnitude faster than any other country, including the Asian Tigers.

Fastest rate since the post war rebuilding boom starting in 1947.

2001: profits were $714.5bn
2005: $1,595.4bn; 123% increase

Largest growth in the US manufacturing sector, enough to offset the weakness in technology earnings and US auto manufacturers.

Top 15% US workers saw real wages grow by over 350%
Lower 85% saw their wage share of GDP decline from 58.6% to 56.2%, despite the fact real labor costs rose only 0.3%.

The wage differential is even more disgusting when you consider that the real cost of financing for corporations dropped from 5.6% to 4.1%, meaning that corporate costs are flat to slightly falling, while profits are exploding, yet workers are being paid less (unless you're in the top 15%).

Sources: FT, Global Insight, US official economic data, and UN economic commission data.

Randy,

I also cast my vote to "It's different this time". No one has a firm handle on what will be the effect of toxic loans. It's the wild card.

Has anyone noticed how quickly things seem to have changed since the stock market melt down began ? Even the NAR and DL seem visibly scared. HB stocks have been hammered even more. Every news is bad news.

The stickiness is not completely independent of sentiment and psychology. If the sentiments change drastically, stickiness would be under pressure.

Speaking of accounting firms, I can't help but be amused at Ernst & Young's retraction of their report on the size of China's nonperforming loans. "We hope this won't affect our business in China", says the spokesperson, as she touts the official $164 billion figure as correct. "We don't know how that $911 billion figure slipped passed our review process."

Yeah... can't imagine how that happened. I know who's numbers I'm not going to be trusting anytime soon.

Great thread HARM! Nothing to contribute, but enjoyed it all.

JH,

I can’t get my mind around this. I think of things as P&L. How much money is made, and how much it cost to make it. I find it fascinating how complicated this has become.

With all due respect, if you don't know the why and how of these things then you might consider tempering your animosity towards those working in that field. Cost accounting is not financial accounting, despite your protestations to the contrary. Or would you prefer that everyone who doesn't understand engineering simply lump it all together and dismiss those who study their entire lives to excel in their given specialty with an equal "perception of efficacy"?

Yeah, oo is me.

I am starting to think that this country needs a fundamental shift of wealth distribution, or something crazy like this may actually stick for many years to come. If we go down this path without turning back, this may mark the beginning of new serfdom for the mass.

Let me explain why. My wife and I went to her class reunion last week. We are obviously not in the most profitable industry although we do ok, but there are quite a few people in her class, in their mid-30s, earning seven figures, yes seven, including bonus, before tax of course, doing investment banking and hedge funds. There are folks we know for a long time that did well, there are also folks that we haven't kept in touch who did well. All of them live in CA (LA and SF) and NYC. And of course these people own their homes outright, since they are already in a tax bracket that mortgage deduction doesn't matter any more.

It seems that we are in a very perculiar state of economy. There are a bunch of top earners, and increasing number of them (although a very small percent of the total US population) earning insane compensation packages, while the mass earn less and less, adjusted for inflation. Since these jobs tend to concentrate in certain areas, and everyone wants to live in certain enclaves, and houses are priced by the marginal inventory, it is very likely that we may even see APPRECIATION for a bunch of middle upper class properties while the general housing sector suffers. It doesn't take a lot of them to keep the housing price of certain enclaves permanently high, and over the last few years we seem to have a lot of these ultra-high earners manufactured by the Wall Street.

It is the polarized income distribution, aka, the disappearing middle class of America that is causing this very odd housing situation. Housing is simply a symptom.