patrick.net

Probably about 2 grand return. The insulation is a given, and should be there regardless. Two things never pay: Roof and furnace. Don't get me wrong. As a buyer I would notice these things and appreciate the work it would save me.

I have the option to do a complete energy upgrade. Furnace, attic insulation, floor insulation, seal everything, duct replacement. Estimated energy savings per year is $500, but the cost is around $8k.

Maybe if you live in Vermont. Around here slap on a sweat shirt during winter. Else its money down the drain.

The readings are actually mathematically calculated. They take measurements of the current house air leakage, windows, insulation, etc. Duct testing, building air in/out/exchange. Then calculate the amount it would take and estimated savings. Having a 30 year furnace is not helping me, nor are leaking ducts and poor insulation. Granted, it all works, just not very effcient.

As for the sweat shirt comment, it doesn't really work with babies and toddlers. And in the summer when its a 100, it doesnt work out to sit your underwear as well.

Now, if were going to sell the house..... would it be attractive to the buyer, compared to a renovated bathroom or something?

my best advise is to go ahead with attic insulation, floor insulation, seal things your self a caulk gun is cheap and so are weather seal strips, as for the ducting.. skip it and put a small fan in your attick blowing out one of the top vents with a switch inside turn it on only during the summer, that will save you alot and not cost so much

by the way all you need to do to find the leaks in your house, get a powerful portable fan from HD about 50 bucks, put it in a window panel with pillows to seal and blow air into your house then use a incense stick and watch the smoke to see where the air is escaping, along door jams windows ect

Well,
I have never heard anyone tell me that they picked out a house because it had energy efficiency.

I have heard reasons like, the size of the house, the size of the yard, the location on the street, the location of the neighborhood, the price of the house, the age of the house, the building style of the house, the big trees on the street.

But not the energy efficiency.

Someone told me that he attempted to use the lack of insulation as a bargaining point about the price on a home he bought in Fremont. During the bubble, so probably the seller didn't bargain on that point.

After he bought the place, he told me he paid to have it insulated. Even the floors ! In Fremont, CA.

A number of folks have told me that since the house was old, after they bought it, they'd have to do all the upgrades your talking about.

But nobody ever told me they picked out their house, or paid a little bit more money for their house, because of the energy efficiency.

Now, I have been doing energy upgrades on my residence for a decade now, every year doing something. This year, it's updating the ceiling crawlspace insulation. But these are hedges against the dollar, as energy prices seem to go opposite the dollar. They are not upgrades thought to improve the resale value of my home.

tomme12 says

As for the sweat shirt comment, it doesn’t really work with babies and toddlers. And in the summer when its a 100, it doesnt work out to sit your underwear as well.

tomme12, it can work, and it does for most people in the world, and it did for about the first 400 years of Europeans living in North America.

sybrib says

tomme12 says

As for the sweat shirt comment, it doesn’t really work with babies and toddlers. And in the summer when its a 100, it doesnt work out to sit your underwear as well.

tomme12, it can work, and it does for most people in the world, and it did for about the first 400 years of Europeans living in North America.

Good to know for the last 400 years, Europeans living in North America have been on top of the housing market and following patrick.net. Jez... what kind of comment is that in regards to the topic?!

I just bought a home and buying a home built after 1977 was important because the houses are much more efficient than those built in the 50's in general. In my instance, I wouldn't even look at the older homes because I would rather pay up front for efficiency then paying larger utilities down the road. My home, while not up to current standards, is pretty well insulated by my standards. Extra insulation in the attic, a newer air conditioning condensor, and few south facing windows make my home stay fairly cool. My next major upgrades will be replacing the single pane aluminum framed windows with vinyl dual pane low E units. My house is in Southern Ca. and my ;ast electric bill was $110, cooling the house to 76 degrees while I am home.

I agree with surgingerman. Calk and insulate. I wouldn't worry about the furnace/AC as long as they are working and in good shape. You can now rent a machine at home depot that takes bricks of insulation and grinds it up and blows it into your attic. Easy and inexpensive. He is talking about a gablemounted attic fan. They come on a thermostat and can be hard wired in or plugged in or they even are solar powered but pricy.

Fireballsocal thanks!

I have an attic fan that is wired to a thermostat. I have it set to come on when it heats up in the attic and suck the air out. Its an old house. Everything works, but paying the PGE bill is getting old and it keeps going up! Short term, we want to move to a different house at some point. The ROI for me is not going to work in the short term, but in the long term, it would make more sense. Which comes back to the question, if I was a buyer in the market today, would I want a house to be somewhat efficient? I know if i was buying, Im going to be more picky about windows, insulation, furnace, etc.

We did a blower test and there was air coming out of everywhere. Couple old can lights, electrical outlets, door seals, attic drop down door.

By the way, the solar powered fans (at costco) do not move enough air, they are a waste from I have read.

tomme12 says

Good to know for the last 400 years, Europeans living in North America have been on top of the housing market and following patrick.net. Jez… what kind of comment is that in regards to the topic?!

The sweatshirt in the winter, and staying cool behaviors in the summer, are the most cost efficient "energy upgrades" we have in the Bay Area.

sybrib says

The sweatshirt in the winter, and staying cool behaviors in the summer, are the most cost efficient “energy upgrades” we have in the Bay Area.

In Central CA we escape to air-conditioned work or the mall if we're having trouble with $100+ monthly electric bills (I know, not very green). A pool is considered a necessity for a lot of people. In winter it would be great to burn firewood but the air quality is so bad there are many days when people in the Valley are fined for using the fireplace. There's another reason having a well-sealed home is nice, which has nothing to do with energy conservation: sound, dirt, and smell. We are a good 2 miles from a train route, but in the middle of the night it sounds like the tracks run past the window. In the autumn when the winds blow, dust kicks up from plowed fields and sifts right into our entry way and under the sills. And the cows--- oh, dear, you'd think we lived in a stockyard when the wind is just right. Or it's the farmers fertilizing the fields. Serves us right for living here, I guess. I would just venture that any energy upgrades, while not being on the radar of home buyers, might be of incalculable comfort to the homeowner.

I think this is one of those things like repainting house interior for sale.

There are buyers out there who want you to renovate before sale so they can move into a made-to-order new place without lifting a finger afterwards. I'm not sure how large a demographic this is, but I feel certain that it's size is wildly overestimated.

Personally I'd rather you not paint, because you are probably not going to pick the color I want, and then I'll have paid for paint I have to cover up. Ditto for virtually all other renovations.

I would look at energy efficiency in this sense:

Can this place be MADE efficient?

I can do a fair amount myself, or might choose triple-paned windows where you chose doubles.

But I would definitely not choose a drafty Victorian or McMansion, requiring such complete overhaul it's cost prohibitive. I suppose if you have one of those, you should at least slap on enough quick fixes to get it sold.

I'm actually living for the first time in my adult life in a house without a working air conditioner. And finding that it's not too bad with a bit of work and strategy it can be done. Mainly open up the house and let it cool down at night, then button up in the morning. Avoid heat-generating equipment like stoves & dryer during the day and I've had 110 outside and 82 inside.

No. It's because most people are horribly stupid and only care about bling.

How much would 8K effect the sale price of your house? Are we talking about a 150K house? Or a 600K house? That would definitely be something to consider.

I believe the number of people who buy based on appearance is pretty high. That is essentially the "flipper" market. But it's also the new home market and most likely a fairly large part of the market.

How many people would buy a dirty dirty car, with a fully stained interior and think "Hmm $200 of cleaning and this is good to go! Most definitely what I want!" People want something that looks like it's healthy, been cared for and where their imagination only makes things look even better. If the walls are dirty and you repaint them the wrong color, at least they're new looking. Peoples imagination will make it look even better.

Taking a bathroom which is probably an 8/10 to a 10/10 is probably over kill, but bringing up a 2/10 to a 7/10 will likely pay for itself, and bring in lots of extra potential buyers. Just the fact that it looks like it's been taken care of will make people feel better about the purchase. If the current owners think it's a POS not worth taking care of, why would you buy their POS? Why didn't they want their home to at least look nice? It's mostly physiological. I'm not saying add 80K kitchen, but do spend a bit to make it look better.

As far as the energy updates go. How many years would you be there, and is the $500/year realistic? Is that an 80% savings or 15-20%? If you're going to be there 5 years, you've saved $2000-2500 at a minimum. You'll probably be more comfortable and not be constantly fighting heat and cold drafts.

If you're handy, you could easily plug up the holes yourself as other have stated. Insulation costs next to nothing, you could just go into the attic and load it up in a few hours. You don't need to do a perfect job. Just toss it up there, and try and cover 80% of the open area. Replacing windows could be pretty expensive, but if you're bleeding energy from the roof and walls, fixing those problems might save you a lot right there. Blinds are also good creating a mini barrier between your windows and living space.

In buying a home, there are things that can be fixed and things that can't. (without huge amount of capital)

When looking at buying, I value what is really important and core. Location, size, yard bedroom/bathroom, layout, natural light. No amount of money (or it takes a lot) can fix these.

You'll have to look through the cosmetics including energy upgrades as they are the easiest to fix and add value so the return on capital investment is there.

I doubt it. How many buyers actually inquire about the energy efficiency of the insulation materials of the home? And of those who do inquire, how much less or more are they willing to pay upon finding out the energy efficiency of the materials? I doubt people are willing to pay that much more of the actual cost of the energy efficiency upgrades. As others have said, people are more affected by aesthetics. If you want to squeeze as much money out of the house, make cheap upgrades that look nice.

People might not pay a lot extra, but it might be a deciding factor between two homes. Or a nice feature of the home. But most would never know about it, it would have to be introduced by the seller.

For a money wise investor, they'll probably factor in the costs.

For a family buyer, the bathroom is probably more important, as it's something they can see and feel today.

If that's your "best" selling point, it's like going to a used car dealer and then showing you the brand shifter knob they've installed. "Really? thats the BEST thing on this car? Umm next!"

However, if you could put $1000 into insulation, and do some of that work yourself, you might see $250-300 in energy savings, which would only take you 3-4 years to pay off. Which might benefit yourself and couldn't hurt the sale.

I can't see a significant increase in price for this. now if you totally rigged up tens of thousands and there is no light bill at all then sure.

I would say having some things just in case might be a good thing as well. Case in point central air conditioning. For the most part I can live without a/c. But who honestly wants to lug a 50lbs+ a/c and slab it in the wall each time it reaches 90 degrees? Meanwhile it's limited to just that room...central air isn't nearly as common up north but it's worth the price in the long run

mdovell says

Case in point central air conditioning. For the most part I can live without a/c. But who honestly wants to lug a 50lbs+ a/c and slab it in the wall each time it reaches 90 degrees? Meanwhile it’s limited to just that room…central air isn’t nearly as common up north but it’s worth the price in the long run

Who is making you remove the window AC? You can leave them in year round if you want to. I do, but I also have a custom mount I made with aluminum and hardwood.

2 grand. What you're talking about is not that much of an upgrade. Like someone said, if you change your house to a complete no-bills-ever upgrade that's different, but insulation+a furnace upgrade is what should be done regardless.

Usually the energy savings figures are way over-inflated. That being said, I've dumped probably 10k just into the heating/cooling efficiency of my house, and I have another 5-8k to go. I save about $50/month on the electic and over $150/month on the heat, so 5 yrs payback right now. It not about the money, but about where money really goes when it leaves your house. Cutting my heating oil expense is a moral issue for me.

A new hvac system can certainly affect the sale-ability. The price depends on too many other factors to say it increases the price I think

Wow, everyone is all over the board here. Interesting feedback. I hear the redneck crowd who like sweaters and tall glasses of ice tea is considered energy efficient, then actually some more real world scenarios or answers. No offense anyone.

Since we do live in the Bay area, East bay where temps flux quite a bit. Just leaf the 100 degree temp, heading to the 70s this weekend. Winters can cool into the 30's and 40's at night. Heck, last year I saw 26 one night.

Another interesting twist I looked up was a solar lease. Looks for about $100-150 a month lease, I can cut my $350 electric bill in half. 12 month savings after paying the lease is around $1100. So if its inflated, maybe chop that down to $800 a year. (zero down, looks like early term is ok.. but still checking)

Granted, its a lease.. but why own solar equipment when it changes so often. But I still need to research if the "what ifs". As in what if I sell in 12 months. What if I early term the lease. How easy is it to transfer to the new owner of the house.... or can I buy the system off the lease and include it with the house.... (and how much?!)

Easy fixes will be done... door seals, window seals, etc. Then I may have the ducts sealed and after that think about a furnace.