patrick.net

So I think the modern world is fucked up. All these technological advances are just temporary drug fixes. They don't solve the problem. As a matter of fact, they make matters worse by tricking people into abandoning the traditional way of life but yet failing to offer a feasible alternative.

So I think the modern world is fucked up. All these technological advances are just temporary drug fixes. They don’t solve the problem. As a matter of fact, they make matters worse by tricking people into abandoning the traditional way of life but yet failing to offer a feasible alternative.

yes, well spoken, M. Rousseau...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discourse_on_the_Arts_and_Sciences

Different Sean Says:

SF Woman wrote:

> I think the one difference between people who can become
> financially successful and those who fritter away everything
> is the ability to defer gratification, to see the larger, long
> term goals.

Then Different Sean (who should write press releases for the DNC) wrote:

> then there’s the outright poor who can’t get well-paying jobs.
> not counting countries where virtually everyone is poor. and
> the nature of high modernity capitalist markets where wealth
> is concentrated in fewer and fewer hands and real wages
> have dropped over the years.

Let’s stick to the US since I’m not going to argue that it will be tough to get a good paying job in Sub Saharan Africa.

One of the things my Dad (who dropped out of college to work full time at 20) told me is when you hear someone say they “can’t do something” it just means that they “won’t do something” (or are just too lazy to do something”).

If you work hard in America you will make plenty of money even if you have no education. My tree trimmer and tile guy both make over $250K a year and my tile guy even has a second home (with servants) back in Mexico near the town he grew up in

Governor Conan Says:

> The other thing I don’t understand is why children
> won’t live with their aging parents. It’s just plain
> immoral. When I select a wife — if such a time
> shall come — I’ll make sure that the woman should
> be entirely willing to live with my parents.

I’ll let my parents live with me (or move down to their house if they want someone other than paid help to keep an eye on them some day) since they are nice people. Many people do not do this because their parents are not nice people.

Since as SF Woman points out many people don’t know how to delay gratification so more and more woman don’t wait until after marriage (or even High School) to have kids. Most Dad’s who never marry don’t stick around and most single Mom’s end up living in a crappy place and making their kids deal with a long line of the pathetic looser type guys that can’t get a date with a woman without kids.

Most people who had crappy parents just let them die in a state run housing facility…

I talked to Kiyosaki at the bus stop the other day, you know, "off the record" so to speak.

He said that the important thing to remember is to keep your eye on the ball, and buy his books, so that he can make money off them and get rich pimping your dreams of wealth without effort.

I said, "well, what about guys like me and Surfer-X, down here in the trenches, swinging a bat the old fashioned way and racking up college credits because we bought the Boomer line about education and working hard and all that sh-t?"

He said, "f-ck 'em. Let 'em eat cake!"

Now that's fricken' hard core! Damn, he's soulless!

yay!
Just checked the CL Austin listings. There are now over 2,000 homes under 150k. That's freakin' awesome. There was like 500 just a few weeks ago. It is nice to see that at least one cool city in the country is going in a totally opposite way RE wise than here. Hell- I bet those prices will drop even more than that. Yee haw!( sorry, just kinda excited)

I was under the impression we were discussing the economics of people within the US.

OK, so in a market society with lots of advertising distractions, people who defer gratification will end up with more. QED. The ol' hoard it and never spend it Protestant work ethic prevails.

I still say it's a highly individualistic world view, and takes no account of other life chances, as Max Weber would put it. However, it is a common 'pop psychology' explanation put about a lot in the highly individualised US (and psychologists tend to work 'inside the box'), and it becomes a circular explanation, like the signs of the zodiac describing personality... In other environments, perhaps those who don't hoard fare better in an adaptive evolutionary sense? Which is why we see a spectrum of behaviours - most behaviours are adaptive in some way to some environment, past or present. Let's posit that in the wild, the person who eats what they find straight away is more likely to live, and who breed on a whim will populate the earth more successfully... 'Lifelong success' in a long-term acquisitive and materialistic capitalist society is a different thing to success in the wild where you don't know where your next meal is coming from, and you have to make the most of it... and maybe the non-delayed types enjoy their lives more from moment to moment?

Besides which, did the marshmallow experimenter control for other variables such as intelligence (and there are many kinds of intelligence), parents SES, social and cultural capital at the homes of the children, educational opportunities, individual emotional lability, and so on? Does childhood gratification patterns equate to adult gratification patterns? I find the explanation of a single behavioural variable a little unsatisfying. How many other variables did he control for? Is it causative or just correlative? etc...

And I’ll even argue that if you want to be an artist, and can’t support yourself and expect others to chip in and do so, then you are the very definition of a parasite. Pay=job, can’t support yourself=hobby.

I'm a corporate lawyer, and I expect to be helped out by generous corporations -- I find that when I lie in a certain way, they chip in and pay me a lot of money to get them off the hook. I particularly like to say things like tobacco doesn't cause cancer and that a company should not be liable for asbestos deaths. I might become a politician or politician's adviser next, and put favourable spin on wars that kill thousands. After that, I'll become a lobbyist and take bribes to piss in some politician's ear. I expect a socially useful $500 K p.a. for all the abovementioned noble duties. That's far more morally superior than just producing silly art for the sake of people's ephemeral happiness, when I could be helping big business to get off the hook with my skills in glibness, and making so many people unhappy... See what modern society values? My glib tongue is worth its weight in gold...

If you work hard in America you will make plenty of money even if you have no education. My tree trimmer and tile guy both make over $250K a year and my tile guy even has a second home (with servants) back in Mexico near the town he grew up in

hard-working public servants with degrees here are pushing to make $50K. that's their salary. maybe they should drop out and start tree-trimming businesses, i don't know...

in fact, if you look at the means and distributions of income in the US, you'll find that the average salary is still $36,764. a tree trimmer making $250 K pa is charging $125 per hour for an 8 hour day, more than most doctors with 10 years of tertiary study behind them can charge. unless they're ripping off their clientele, have quite a few employees passing the money up to them or start a franchise...

the White House reports that the average hourly earnings of non-supervisory workers was $15.54 in March 2004. however, the average pay for CEOs running $5 billion companies for the three years ending in 2002 hit $12 million.

so it all sounds a little 'bullish' to me...

And then there is everyone born after the very early 70s,..

... or late 60s

...who brown bag their lunches...

Amen

...and drive used compact cars,...

Sing it brother

but despite saving $1500-$2000 per month,

So true, so true.

... watch houses appreciate by $10,000 a month.

Sweet Jesus!

You can EASILY become poor without spending any money at all. Remember, debt = wealth.

Don't forget, the money that you don't spend today will be worth jack tomorrow:

http://tinyurl.com/mhx5l

I was born in mid-70s but I do not pinch pennies. Must be my Taurus ascendent sign.

a few useful (?) links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_inequality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_metrics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality

Wow, the blog is starting to get CHINESE SPAM! Cool. Can anyone translate this for me?:

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@Robert,
:lol: I think that's what the Japanese spam says.

Different Sean wrote:

> hard-working public servants with degrees here are
> pushing to make $50K.

SF cops make over $100K with overtime and I have many firefighter friends making over $200K a year (and working less than 15 days a month). You can make over $50K with a SF government job and work less than 20 hours a week so have plenty of time to make money somewhere else...

I "brown bagged" for years. Not so much that I'm THAT cheap but b/c NW Portland was/is legendary for PC restaurants. I mean where else can you get a "vegetarian hot dog"? I swear, after one bite I almost gagged and took it out of the bun and tossed it to the curb. A mangey mutt came by sniffed it and he wouldn't eat it either! After sampling the "vegetarian pizza" my stomach was so upset I told my co-workers to cover for me b/c I had to go home. They change ownership, management and menus CONSTANTLY. Just b/c it was edible last week doesn't mean it is this week! Oh and on top of that they're snooty.

Different Sean writes:

> Does childhood gratification patterns equate
> to adult gratification patterns?

I have never seen an "official study" but every kid I grew up with that didn’t study every night and watched a lot of TV and ate a lot of junk food when they were little then started smoking pot, drinking and having sex at 14 are not doing nearly as well as the kids who had less fun and worked harder…

Portland Sucks (there, I said it)

I'm told they have a Portland Sucks Blog. I'll have to let them know just how right they are. Right now it's like 58 degrees, overcast and drizzling off and on. We are 3 weeks away from the 4th. Great.........

DinOR,

No matter how often you bash Portland, I'll never lose my romanticised image of the PNW. But if Portland-bashing helps to scare away greedy flipper asshats from CA (who are f--king up prices there too), then I'm all for it. Bash away...

HARM,

Hey thanks! There really is no particular agenda on my part to bash PDX. It's just depression and the "tease" of having a few nice days and winding up back in "solitary" so to speak. For the most part flipper mania has been concentrated in Bend, OR and the surrounding areas but any time I hear Oregonians blame Californians my eyes involuntarily role into the back of my head! I've heard that same schpeel for so long I now finish the diatribe for them just so I don't have to hear it from somebody else.

Most of the places that still have that "Old NW Charm" are still there so don't let me spoil that for you. It's just that with all of the "in-fill" construction they are now a more difficult commute but tolerable by national standards.

Peter P,

I used to think that those 50-ish guys who build huge model railroads in their basements were eccentric and a little weird. I was looking for some airplane glue in order to fix one of my older son's toys last weekend. I went to a model railroad shop in Pasadena and didn't leave for like 30 minutes. I was visualizing all sorts of monster setups in my mind.

I used to think that those 50-ish guys who build huge model railroads in their basements were eccentric and a little weird. I was looking for some airplane glue in order to fix one of my older son’s toys last weekend. I went to a model railroad shop in Pasadena and didn’t leave for like 30 minutes. I was visualizing all sorts of monster setups in my mind.

Only 30 minutes? :)

They had a piece done on them that was actually okay and spun in a positive way.

How so?

I still do not think that boycotting housing is the right way. It violates the spirit of free market. And it will NOT work. Think virginity pledge.

That was the longest post I have ever seen…

It makes some terrrific points, too. My only complaint is I wish Robert would remove all the carriage returns before posting.

Robert Cote'

I really wish you would call into Lars Larson on 750 AM on First Amendment Friday! He has been trying to shout from the roof tops for ages on this very topic for years gaining very little traction I might add. It's frustrating not only for you but Oregonians at large (that do not benefit) from this "experiment". Namely everyone that isn't a Multnomah County resident. Yes our school system is imploding as we speak! I shudder to think what it would look like if it were not for the likes of guys like Phil Knight (Nike founder). I worked at 5th and Columbia (major Tri-Met transit mall) for several years utterly amazed at just how few passengers they actually move. Any politician that speaks out against the incredible waste is promptly tarred, feathered and run out of town. The "experiment" is our 3rd rail.

Robert Cote'

I realize that it probably doesn't get much press in SoCal but Multnomah County (Portland) initiated a 1% "temporary" income tax several years back to "augment" school funding. Please to notice that city and county employees were exempt from paying the tax! What a friggin mess. There's a reason I have always lived in Clackamas or Marion counties (even though I worked downtown) which makes me the biggest low life in most Portlanders' eyes.

FAB, you only get overtime in the SFPD if you are senior enough, or so I hear. The newer guys have to "get by" on $65k a year, plus very generous benefits, including full retirement at age 50. If you have a college degree they start you at $80k/yr! Over time is offered out on a seniority basis and the guys with 10+ years get most of it. But it gives you a reason to stick around, at least.

I don't know any firefighters making $200k/yr, but plenty make over $100k.

A firefighter and a nurse can still do very well in San Francisco. In fact, I have one couple just like that living on my block, they own their own home, have two kids in private school and appear to doing very well for themselves.

I think that delaying gratification and saving for the future is an important part of being successful in life, no matter how you define success: academically, personally or financially. But I think you also need to be able to take enough risks to get that success. And even more importantly is learning how to be happy with the blessings that have come your way. So many here complain that they can't have it all: children at a young age, time with their families, a successful career and a big house on a large lot in one of the most desirable places in the nation. It is strange to me that people even think that is possible, but I guess most of them grew up in very different circumstances than me.

This will be my last post for a while: my paternity leave is over and I don't expect to have time to post or even read once I am back to work full time. Good luck all of you in your dreams. You really can find a nice place in Charlotte for $80,000!

And I want to thank you all for helping me to keep my nerve in my TOL put, which is up 300% so far. I promise to take you all out for free sushi when I finally close the position, in Jan 07.

Robert Cote'

What makes Portland more unlivable by the day is every time a problem or complaint arises (as they do most every where) the City jumps smack dab in the middle of it and turns it into a "revenue stream". Residents up in now trendy NW (formerly a dump) complained that folks would drive in from the burbs then park in NW, ALL DAY and THEN use light rail. Well, the residents there may or may not have had a legit complaint but by this time the matter was closed. They (the City) discovered there was a new revenue stream! Whoo hoo! In a week there were parking meters all over the place and they were raking in coin on the meters AND the tickets!

Bottom line? Can folks up in NW still park in front of their own homes? Oh hell no! But the city saw a trend and exploited to the full. Truthfully this is a minor matter but it exemplifies just how these people operate and why so many people no longer go to city hall and try to resolve things on a more local level. Sad.

SQT,

Yikes! My wife would have probably shot me if I had tried that. I took a week off work right after the baby was born, then she was home alone for two months. Then I got six weeks off with Ava, our baby. The new California Family Rights Act has certainly helped me make the case, since I got 55% (less really) of my regular salary while I was on leave. In your husband's defence, that law was only passed in 2004.

Car usage is subsidized much more than transit in this country Robert. If urbanites stopped massively subsidizing suburban sprawl, it would go away, or at least be reduced.

The automobile is the experiment in human mobility that has failed, we just haven't realized it yet.

Some parents are very irresponsible and selfish. I have seen some parents who absolutely deserve to be left in public elderly facility to die by themselves.

My sister-in-law has such boomer parents, totally careless in financial planning. Her dad was making $100K+ back in the 80s as an executive in a tech firm, but amazingly they had NO savings! They bought a home, but kept withdrawing equity for their lifestyle so when they retired, they had to get my brother and sister-in-law to move in to help pay the mortgage, because their pension is not nearly enough to pay the mortgage and support their lifestyle at the same time. Get this, after paying nearly 30 years of mortgage, they still end up with only 35% home equity.

Then, both of them don't watch their diet, do whatever they wish to pursue instant gratification of senses, and deservingly end up with bad health, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, heart disease, and one of them had a stroke which left her half paralysed. Based on the way she pigs out, she is the poster child of a stroke patient. Now my brother and her wife have to be on call all the time attending to their caring needs, about three times a month, one of them needs to be sent to emergency room in the middle of the night. It is extremely hard on my brother who also has a couple of kids to raise. My brother says if this goes on for another year or so, either he will have a nervous breakdown, or he will have to drop them off at a senior facility against their will.

Parents like that end up with miserable financial and health situation entirely due to their own irresponsibility and stupidity.

Ray W Says:

They had a piece done on them that was actually okay and spun in a positive way.

I did see this piece. It was generally okay, although I thought (a) the couple seemed a bit clueless, and (b) the spirit of the piece was more or less that the BA market is SO insane that people have to resort to boycotting home buying to try to effect a change towards normalcy. True, but it shouldn't take drastic and unusual measures, if it is truly a free market going through its usual cycles.

OO,
Your brother's situation is tragic, but it does point out my HUGE pet peeve, which is how people in the US fail to take responsibility for their actions. It's fine if people choose to live unhealthy lifestyles and get horrific diseases. However, our society should not allow them to get away with paying only their nominal share into the healthcare system and expect to utilize a vast majority of healthcare resources. As recent reports on boomers' retirement savings (or lack thereof) show, this problem is particularly bad in their generation. Unfortunately, they expect our generation (X) and beyond to foot the bill. Damn them.

Sorry about morphing this into another anti-boomer rant.

the market has turned maniacal and the only way to slow it down is for people to stop buying and take some of the pressure off.

Of course this couple has the right to try and boycott the housing market. I didn't imply they were portrayed as lunatics, merely that I perceived the portrayal as a demonstration that desperate times call for desperate measures. Also, my own particular viewpoint is that yes, this may accelerate the correction process, but I expect that the correction will happen "on its own" as the market collapses on its own weight.

I guess my question is the housing market a free market? I don’t think so. There is a monopoly to some extent held by the Real Estate industry through the laws and licensing process. As far as I’m concerned RE Agents and Realtors(r) collude to fix prices and disseminate mis-information.

I do not think so. My point is that the bubble will collapse on its own weight. It is still a free market, just a little bit slow and sticky.

Of course, people are free to join the boycott. But soon enough the participants will start to try outsmarting each other.

Sorry to hit and run Robert, but the day is sunny and I want to take one of my last days of freedom to go walk around St. Francis Wood and Forest Hill, to take a look at my deam homes. So at least I posted once on topic.

This one is nice. Too bad it is about $1M more than I can dream of affording:

http://www.sfarmls.com/scripts/mgrqispi.dll?APPNAME=Sanfrancisco&PRGNAME=MLSPropertyDetail&ARGUMENTS=-N351407205,-N190234,-N,-A,-N3699199

This one is pretty much ideal. Too bad I will never get my wife to agree to live someplace foggier than Noe Valley!

http://www.sfarmls.com/scripts/mgrqispi.dll?APPNAME=Sanfrancisco&PRGNAME=MLSPropertyDetail&ARGUMENTS=-N351407205,-N191451,-N,-A,-N3699199

Of course, deep in my heart I really want other people to join the boycott - when it is time to buy... less competition. :)

Ray,

I totally agree that the housing market is absolutely NOT a free market. It's an industry that monopolizes information that its consumers need to make purchasing/selling decisions (MLS listings), and it blatantly manipulates that information to the realtors' benefit (days on market, probably monthly sales data). I won't even get started on the mortgage industry as well. On a very slightly positive note, did you see in today's WSJ that the Treasury dept. is threatening to put the clamps on Freddie Mac/Fannie Mae? There's clearly a little political pressure to regulate the industry better. I'm not expecting any positive results, though.

When confronted with this type of market maybe a boycott should be one of the tools used to break-up the monopoly.

Just try to approach this from another angle. Ask yourself if the monopoly is sustainable on its own.

If it is truly sustainable, buycotting will not help. You should seek to join the monopoly yourself. Do not fight it. Join it.

If it is not, nothing needs to be done. It will happen.