patrick.net

So then what are the benefits of owning, Klarek?

I happen to agree with suboink that being able to handle issues yourself is a good thing. Yes, it stinks that you are the one on the hook for the expenses, but the ability to make these decisions is a positive. It's not enough of a positive to go overpay by $100k, but it is one of the benefits of owning.

edit: Not to compare renters to a little kid in a demeaning way, but in some ways they are similar. When a kid wants to buy something he needs to ask his parents for money. When you grow up, you can buy it on your own, but it also comes with the responsibility of a job, etc. Sure, when you are renting, you can call up someone to ask them to take care of it, but when you own you have the ability and the responsibility to do it yourself. It's a nice freedom to have.

ch_tah says

So then what are the benefits of owning, Klarek?
I happen to agree with suboink that being able to handle issues yourself is a good thing. Yes, it stinks that you are the one on the hook for the expenses, but the ability to make these decisions is a positive. It’s not enough of a positive to go overpay by $100k, but it is one of the benefits of owning.

the only benefit is if it is cheaper to own than rent.

Right now ownership is way more expensive than rent which is why most people aren't buying.

ChrisLA says

ch_tah says

So then what are the benefits of owning, Klarek?

I happen to agree with suboink that being able to handle issues yourself is a good thing. Yes, it stinks that you are the one on the hook for the expenses, but the ability to make these decisions is a positive. It’s not enough of a positive to go overpay by $100k, but it is one of the benefits of owning.

the only benefit is if it is cheaper to own than rent.
Right now ownership is way more expensive than rent which is why most people aren’t buying.

Really, that's the only benefit of owning versus renting in your view?

ChrisLA says

ch_tah says

So then what are the benefits of owning, Klarek?

I happen to agree with suboink that being able to handle issues yourself is a good thing. Yes, it stinks that you are the one on the hook for the expenses, but the ability to make these decisions is a positive. It’s not enough of a positive to go overpay by $100k, but it is one of the benefits of owning.

the only benefit is if it is cheaper to own than rent.
Right now ownership is way more expensive than rent which is why most people aren’t buying.

In other words people want to buy but they can't afford to, or banks don't want to loan that kind of money to the eager ones.

klarek says

I guess you prefer footing the bill yourself for repairs, taking time off of work, etc. Cool, but don’t fool yourself or attempt to fool others into thinking that you’ve somehow achieved a less stressful way of living. Responsibility does not translate into less stress.

Footing the bills is not causing me stress. What is causing me stress is when things don't get taken care of because a landlord stalls and sends over 4 workers to get estimates all on my time - not sure where you're time saving idea comes in. I have wasted SO much time by being at the renter house and waiting for the landlord to make a decision to fix something and then ultimately getting the cheapest guy on the block to fix it. I then, had to live with it. I am glad to pay for it myself and get things done the right way, and FAST.

I find it a huge advantage despite paying for it. Hey, life costs money. You go out to eat, costs money, put gas in your car, costs money. You own a home that you enjoy, costs money. Not a groundbreaking concept really.

But when you are renting, you are at the mercy of somebody else. Mostly, somebody else that looks at the home as an investment. Somebody that cares about the return of the investment. You live in that investment, except ...its not your investment - but you are paying for it regardless.

I'd rather pay for the repairs than somebody else's mortgage.

I am not the one that is brainwashed - you are!

klarek says

SubOink says

It’s the time of renting that fuels my euphoria as a home owner. Despite the 30 year loan, believe it or not - I feel free!

That’s exactly how the banks want you to feel. Whatever floats your boat.

Moot point. The banks don't give a crap about how we feel. They just want their money. They don't care if you feel imprisoned by a mortgage or free because you own a house. They could care less.

I could also say...landlords want you to feel like renting is the way to go. After all, that's how they make their money. My last landlord paid $230k for the house 20 years ago. I have paid him $140k in 5 years in rent and btw, this was the cheapest house in this neighborhood I could find. Right now, most houses rent for more than that - So, ooo...I had a deal!! I paid his half of his house off. I feel very good about that. NOT.

bubblesitter says

ChrisLA says

ch_tah says

So then what are the benefits of owning, Klarek?
I happen to agree with suboink that being able to handle issues yourself is a good thing. Yes, it stinks that you are the one on the hook for the expenses, but the ability to make these decisions is a positive. It’s not enough of a positive to go overpay by $100k, but it is one of the benefits of owning.

the only benefit is if it is cheaper to own than rent.

Right now ownership is way more expensive than rent which is why most people aren’t buying.

In other words people want to buy but they can’t afford to, or banks don’t want to loan that kind of money to the eager ones.

I think thats the right way to put it. Poor are always eager to take on debt frivolously, and banks are slowly returning to making prudent loans they know they'll get back because government isn't going to be backing stupid loans any more, at least not to the same extend as before.

ChrisLA says

Poor are always eager to take on debt frivolously, and banks are slowly returning to making prudent loans they know they’ll get back because government isn’t going to be backing stupid loans any more, at least not to the same extend as before.

The government didn't back those loans--they were packaged into MBS and sold to investors. It was Wall Street that was backing them, in effect.

ch_tah says

So then what are the benefits of owning, Klarek?

Owning for the long term in a market with normal appreciation without sucking out the equity creates an overall lower cost of living for the owner. This can be traded at some future time for a profit on the investment's appreciation, plus earning back the dollars paid in principal.

Misconceptions about the benefits of owning center around retarded, gobbled-up propaganda like "having to call my landlord to fix things". Any renter ought to have a contract with the landlord stipulating that essential repairs be made with no hesitation. If I call my landlord about a clogged gutter, he's there within a day with a ladder. Other stupid remarks made by euphoric new owners center around "rent is throwing money away", which is utterly false since like a mortgage you are paying for the roof over your head. There are trade-offs for renting and owning, which largely center around the time spent at each. Add into it the current risks involved with owning, and you come off like a fresh victim of NAr's bullshit campaign by mocking people who rent, not having a single clue what you're talking about or doing, just like the fools that bought into the housing bubble.

I happen to agree with suboink that being able to handle issues yourself is a good thing. Yes, it stinks that you are the one on the hook for the expenses, but the ability to make these decisions is a positive. It’s not enough of a positive to go overpay by $100k, but it is one of the benefits of owning.

Like I said, that's great if you feel that way, but it smells like a really desperate attempt to talk up home ownership when you make expensive repairs sound like an asset. Do you also enjoy making decisions about whether to replace the transmission on your car? Is that positive too?

edit: Not to compare renters to a little kid in a demeaning way, but in some ways they are similar. When a kid wants to buy something he needs to ask his parents for money. When you grow up, you can buy it on your own, but it also comes with the responsibility of a job, etc. Sure, when you are renting, you can call up someone to ask them to take care of it, but when you own you have the ability and the responsibility to do it yourself. It’s a nice freedom to have.

That is the dumbest analogy I've heard this week. I'm perfectly entitled to repair and maintain my landlord's house. You're celebrating the costs of repairs while playing "grown-up". I thought that was a game that only children played.

SubOink says

Footing the bills is not causing me stress.

No shit, you just bought the house. You're really hitting the joys of ownership out of the park today.

What is causing me stress is when things don’t get taken care of because a landlord stalls and sends over 4 workers to get estimates all on my time - not sure where you’re time saving idea comes in. I have wasted SO much time by being at the renter house and waiting for the landlord to make a decision to fix something and then ultimately getting the cheapest guy on the block to fix it. I then, had to live with it. I am glad to pay for it myself and get things done the right way, and FAST.

Which is why you include a provision in your rent agreement. I doubt given your flippant and careless attitude towards buying that you did any such thing. Or if it was in the lease, you never bothered to read it.

But when you are renting, you are at the mercy of somebody else. Mostly, somebody else that looks at the home as an investment. Somebody that cares about the return of the investment. You live in that investment, except …its not your investment - but you are paying for it regardless.

You're at the mercy of the IRS, your municipality and tax collection office, your HOA, and not least of all your mortgage company which can take your house from you for missed payments just like my landlord can kick me out of mine. Oh, and that mortgage company most certainly looks at your loan as an investment.

I’d rather pay for the repairs than somebody else’s mortgage.

More realtor-speak. It's people like you that help reinforce realtor sentiment that the populace is stupid, easily manipulated, and readily consuming their garbage propaganda. Thanks to you, some poor guy out there looking to buy a house is being fed a line of insulting bullshit by a realtor who watched you gobble up the same load with a smile.

I am not the one that is brainwashed - you are!

Sure, keep telling yourself that.

SubOink says

So, ooo…I had a deal!! I paid his half of his house off. I feel very good about that. NOT.

You were paying for a place to live. Who cares where the money went? You think that's not at all comparable to buying a house and then paying the equivalent amount in interest to the banks?

Why have all these lessons come about over the past five years, yet new homeowners are even dumber than the ones of past? FFS, they've resorted to promoting the joy of repairs, maintenance, and a 30 year debt obligation. If that doesn't wreak of insecurity and desperation to justify the biggest purchase in their life made on a whim at the behest of a malignant conglomerate that spoon-fed them mindless propaganda, I don't know else would.

Economics 101.

Rent (=,) Mortgage interest + property tax + maintenance + insurance + etc... - tax deduction +/- equity. I wonder we have millions of people who don't know how to put calculator at work make the biggest decision of their lives.

I someone is still confused, if there is no at least 2 to 3% home price appreciation YOY it is much much worse then renting. Put that calculator to work.

Klarek,
So the only benefit you see of owning is that in the long-term you may have a lower cost of living? That is one benefit. You don't value the security or freedom of owning your own place? As a former owner, you didn't enjoy saying this is my home and knowing that as long as you paid your bills, no one was going to tell you how long you could stay there? You didn't ever have the feeling, this is mine. I'm not talking about the silly argument of painting the walls or crap like that, but just the feeling of knowing as long as you fulfill your obligations, this is YOUR place. Maybe it's a personal thing and maybe the feeling wears off in time, but I personally enjoy knowing that the place is ours. I like being able to tell my kids, we're "home" without thinking to myself "sort-of."

As for the made-up stuff in your comments. I've never mocked any renters. This again goes towards your "angry renter" status. You always make it out that others are picking on you for being a renter, when it's just not true. As for my "dumb" analogy, I don't think you are correct. Maybe you have a special contract with your landlord, but you typically are not allowed to make significant changes to a house you are renting. Yes, if you clog the toilet, you can call someone if needed. But what about an electrical upgrade to make your house safer? And, I'm not celebrating the cost of repairs; I enjoy the freedom. I wouldn't like having to pay for a transmission, but if it meant I didn't have to ask mommy and daddy for the keys each time, I'm glad I purchased the car. There's pros and cons to each. You can be happy being a renter; there's nothing wrong with it, and there are plenty of benefits. The same can be said about owning a house.

NJ says

I am an angry renter, if “angry renter” means the following:

1) I am pissed at the idiots and thieves who fueled the housing bubble, because it means I cannot buy property at a reasonable price at the point in my life in which I would like to buy property.

2) I am pissed at our government for bailing out these idiots and thieves, because it is a poor use of the very high amount of taxes my wife and I pay each year.

3) I am pissed at our government for making it a policy to keep the housing market inflated, because it is a poor allocation of resources generally (and see #1).

So yeah, I’m an angry renter.

(As a caveat, I am not angry at people for strategically defaulting, as that’s the most sensible thing to do once the person is in that position.)

nice well put. This is the basis for my anger also.

klarek says

You were paying for a place to live. Who cares where the money went? You think that’s not at all comparable to buying a house and then paying the equivalent amount in interest to the banks?

Why have all these lessons come about over the past five years, yet new homeowners are even dumber than the ones of past? FFS, they’ve resorted to promoting the joy of repairs, maintenance, and a 30 year debt obligation. If that doesn’t wreak of insecurity and desperation to justify the biggest purchase in their life made on a whim at the behest of a malignant conglomerate that spoon-fed them mindless propaganda, I don’t know else would.

Awesome!

Cheetah, homeownership can certainly be a nice feeling, but others may like the nice feeling of being moveable and not beholden to a mortgage.

We've moved three times now for job promotions--all across the country--and we'd be financially screwed if we had paid reallywhore commissions and transaction costs n' thangs to buy a house three times. Plus the loss of promotions and future career growth if we *didn't* move.

In theory, you never own a house in full, anyway. Gov't will tax you on property until you die. Kinda means they will take your house if you don't pay--which rhymes with renting and paying a mortgage. We still plan to buy shortly--but just sayin'.

So I just saw the same commercial now 4 or 5 times this morning on the TV for online foreclosure auctions. "If you can click with a mouse, you can buy a house," or something dumb like that. I guess this means foreclosures are going to be the new get-broke-quick scam for all the uneducated masses?

My anger comes from watching since "awakening" in 04/05 to the stupidity and craziness of a system that really doesn't seem to be working for many, yet is still blindly supported, and still seems alive and well.

Crazy is a good word for it IMO.

Phillistine, I completely agree with you. It makes no sense to buy if you are going to move. That's definitely a negative to owning. Yes, you always pay taxes, but that's pretty much true for everything, and as long as you pay those taxes, the gov't is not going to be asking you to move any time soon. In CA, as long as prop 13 holds, time and inflation make those taxes shrink significantly.

ch_tah says

dunnross

Renters should be angry at the gov-t for throwing and wasting so much of the tax payer's money on supporting the housing market, and propping up prices, even though, this, in fact, is very bad for the economy. Renters should not be angry at homeowners, because, by defaulting, homeowners are actually helping the economy get back on its feet. The lower house prices go, and the more debt is expunged, the better this will eventually be for the economy. This will happen, eventually, but all the govt intervention is just delaying the recovery, not helping it at all.

Mr.Fantastic says

ChrisLA is talking about the government’s purchasing of MBS from 2008-2010 to keep interest rates low, to the tune of $1.25 trillion. In fact, the government was using our tax dollars to become the biggest purchaser of MBS for 3 years

I'm not sure why I'm even answering you, but just for the record, Chris was saying that the banks took on bad loans because the government was "backing" them. The bad loans were made prior to 2008-2010, so there was no government backing of them. It was, in fact, Wall St.

dunnross says

ch_tah says

dunnross

Renters should be angry at the gov-t for throwing and wasting so much of the tax payer’s money on supporting the housing market, and propping up prices, even though, this, in fact, is very bad for the economy. Renters should not be angry at homeowners, because, by defaulting, homeowners are actually helping the economy get back on its feet. The lower house prices go, and the more debt is expunged, the better this will eventually be for the economy. This will happen, eventually, but all the govt intervention is just delaying the recovery, not helping it at all.

The feds are certainly working hard to postpone the inevitable.

klarek says

SubOink says

So, ooo…I had a deal!! I paid his half of his house off. I feel very good about that. NOT.

You were paying for a place to live. Who cares where the money went? You think that’s not at all comparable to buying a house and then paying the equivalent amount in interest to the banks?

Who cares where the money went? I do. And its not equivalent. Here is my specific example:

Right now I am at the absolute start of the loan, meaning the payment is mostly interest - well my interest portion/month = $1750.- , the much smaller house that I rented was 2400/month rent, the house I bought would rent for 2700/month according to zillow even though the previous tenants actually paid 2800/month (bravo zillow, very close)

Now, remember those $1750 will go down every month from here on out, so next month its 1749 etc..and they are a tax write off. So the actual cost is way less, due to the tax savings.

I really don't know how anybody can not see the no brainer part in this. I could throw out $2700/month for a lifetime, (would require to lock in a lease for lifetime so that rent never goes up) - or I could throw away interest every month which is a tax write off and even without the tax write off, its WAY less - $1000/month to be precise. And my payment won't change for the next 30 years. I locked in my rent for 30 years, then I own it.

If I rented my place out right now, I break even every month. And I just bought the place.

You can hate it as much as you want to but this makes sense to me. On top of it, I work from home :) So, I am not moving anywhere anytime soon.

ch_tah says

You don’t value the security or freedom of owning your own place? As a former owner, you didn’t enjoy saying this is my home and knowing that as long as you paid your bills, no one was going to tell you how long you could stay there?

No. You are trading some stability for the sake of some flexibility. You're still subject to losing your house due to a number of reasons. Ever heard of eminent domain? Natural disasters? Foreclosure? "This is your home" is just another tired and meaningless platitude that realtors tell to dumb potential homeowners to make their emotions trump their logic.

I've stated the benefit to home ownership above. These lame reasons you guys are giving don't help you argue your case at all.

You didn’t ever have the feeling, this is mine. I’m not talking about the silly argument of painting the walls or crap like that, but just the feeling of knowing as long as you fulfill your obligations, this is YOUR place. Maybe it’s a personal thing and maybe the feeling wears off in time, but I personally enjoy knowing that the place is ours. I like being able to tell my kids, we’re “home” without thinking to myself “sort-of.”

That's new homeowner euphoria. It's not a benefit, just an appeal to human emotion. NAr spends a lot of money to convince people to run with this worthless notion, and to massage their emotions.

Philistine says

So I just saw the same commercial now 4 or 5 times this morning on the TV for online foreclosure auctions. “If you can click with a mouse, you can buy a house,” or something dumb like that.

The cockroaches in the RE industry prey on the gullible, the weak, and the ignorant. Notice how I don't attack home ownership at all, just pointing out the obvious fallacies of these guys' arguments, but have offended their worshiped concept of ownership.

Katy Perry says

My anger comes from watching since “awakening” in 04/05 to the stupidity and craziness of a system that really doesn’t seem to be working for many, yet is still blindly supported, and still seems alive and well.

It has infuriated and awakened me too. It's not why I rent (obviously waiting for prices to correct like many here), but waiting to buy I've paid a lot of attention to how this industry works and how normal, intelligent people are temporarily turned into drooling idiots and putty for a scrupulous industry which constantly feeds them bullshit.

klarek says

No. You are trading some stability for the sake of some flexibility. You’re still subject to losing your house due to a number of reasons. Ever heard of eminent domain? Natural disasters? Foreclosure? “This is your home” is just another tired and meaningless platitude that realtors tell to dumb potential homeowners to make their emotions trump their logic.

I’ve stated the benefit to home ownership above. These lame reasons you guys are giving don’t help you argue your case at all.

I know you're a tin-foiler, but you seriously are going to mention eminent domain as a concern of losing my house? WTF, dude, seriously, stay in bed, forever, something bad may or may not happen to you at some time in the future if you don't. Talk about a stupid point to make.

klarek says

That’s new homeowner euphoria.

I guess there is no such thing as "renters euphoria" - I wonder why?

SubOink says

klarek says

That’s new homeowner euphoria.

I guess there is no such thing as “renters euphoria” - I wonder why?

Well for one, the rental market is a free market, outside of price-controlled areas. I don't expect you'd understand this, or you wouldn't have asked the question, but that's one significant difference.

The cretins that help propagate the b.s. that you eat up - thus fueling the euphoria - make thousands of dollars on your decision to buy. Follow the money. Use your brain for a second.

klarek says

Funny, you never answered my question about the joys and responsibility of having to replace the transmission on your car. Being called a tin-foiler by somebody that’s so desperate to puff up the benefits of owning that he actually includes the added maintenance costs, I consider it a badge of honor.

Funny how I did answer your question. Go back and re-read. In sum, I don't like paying, but if the responsibility of paying comes with the benefit of freedom, I'll pay for it. Search for "mommy and daddy" and you'll find it. Funny also that you bring that up to respond to how stupid your eminent domain remark was. Relevance?
And I don't think I puffed up the benefits of owning. To each his own. Suboink mentioned something he thought was a benefit of owning and I agreed. You see it differently. I'm not sure why you think your way is the only way. Plenty of people enjoy doing yard work and other stuff around the house.

klarek says

So yard work is another reason to own? You guys make home ownership sound worse than it is. “But I can pull weeds! But I can spend $2000 to replace the HVAC!”

Or you could be in the house in 100 degrees hassling your landlord to please fix the A/C (been there, done that)...after 2 weeks of 100 degrees you would beg for just paying 2000 and repair it yourself...

You forget that spending money on the house is only one part of the equation. The other part is using your brand new remodeled kitchen. Swimming in you brand new pool. Enjoying the look of new windows. Does it cost a lot of money, yes but you are still enjoying it 24/7.

SubOink says

Or you could be in the house in 100 degrees hassling your landlord to please fix the A/C (been there, done that)…after 2 weeks of 100 degrees you would beg for just paying 2000 and repair it yourself…

Maybe you think there's a magic homeowner fairy that flies in and fixes all your shit when it breaks, for free.

The AC in the house I'm renting crapped out in August 2009, during a week where it reached over 100 degrees every day. If I were under the spell of the RE industry, I might have thought that it was because I was a renter, that my landlord had an extra AC unit somewhere, and wanted me to be miserable. After all, that helps him pay his mortgage. No. The entire unit was replaced in 48 hours, as soon as you or I could have done it had either of us owned the house. Did I not mention above, twice, that you use your rights enlisted in your lease? Is spending $300k on a house the only way to retro-vindicate your perceived victim status as a renter that didn't do his homework? Surely buying a home without doing your homework will work out so well.

Mr.Fantastic says

Klarek is pretty much destroying ch_tah and SubOink’s arguments. Totally shredding them.

Not really.

klarek says

Surely buying a home without doing your homework will work out so well.

It sounds to me that klarek is the one that didn't do his homework when he bought a home, after all, he is the one that is no longer a homeowner. It explains the bitterness.

Well said.

Clarence 13X says

This is why I never debate with Kevin, too many fact based statements….I’d rather watch and learn…:)

I didn't go back to see that he wrote all of that until today. I didn't even know I was debating him! I just thought I was commenting about what I thought. He put a good bit of thought and effort into all of that. You gotta appreciate that.

SubOink says

It sounds to me that klarek is the one that didn’t do his homework when he bought a home, after all, he is the one that is no longer a homeowner. It explains the bitterness.

I sold for a profit and rented while the market tanked. People like you were telling me that I was giving up something, the joy of ownership and a bribe from the IRS (for being a good little debt prisoner), and that it was stupid.

You can only list burdens and liabilities as reasons that owning is a good thing, shows what you guys actually know. Part of new homeowner euphoria is that kind of condescending snobbery where you view renters as sub-human, or less than owners. Hence the negative connotation with "is no longer a homeowner", like I failed at being awesome. I have a much better understanding of what home ownership means than you, and am 1-0 so far. Talk to me when you sell for a profit.

klarek says

That was a dodge. Do you feel the joy and responsibility of owning a car when you pay for a new transmission?

So yard work is another reason to own? You guys make home ownership sound worse than it is. “But I can pull weeds! But I can spend $2000 to replace the HVAC!”

You’re living up to the stereotype of naive homeowners getting high off of the euphoric farts your agent let out at the closing table as he earned his commission check off of another naive client.

How was that a dodge? Like most things in life, there are good aspects and bad. I like the freedom of my own car, but I don't like having to pay for fixing the transmission. I traded cost for freedom, in that example. Why is that concept escaping you? What in life comes with absolutely no downside? If you dwell on the negative, everything is terrible.

Actually our agent told us very little, and what he did tell us, we ignored. Our current pleasure with our house comes from how we feel each and every day. We never even think about the annoying process of buying the house. I don't know what happened to you, but your negativity is just overwhelming. I really don't see how or why you get out of bed each morning.

You know what Klarek, go ahead and be a curmudgeon and chicken little the rest of your life. I'm going to enjoy mine instead.

klarek says

You were using it as a reason that it’s better than renting, to not have somebody else tend to and pay for the repairs. I asked what the benefit is in that aspect, and now you’re saying it’s a worthwhile trade-off. If that’s not a dodge, then it’s an admission that you don’t really know why renting is better than owning, and pointing out any difference you can to substitute for not having a thoughtful opinion.

I never said having to pay for repairs was a reason why buying is better than renting. I said the freedom to do what you want is a reason why buying better than renting. There is a difference. You keep dwelling on one small aspect that comes with that freedom. Your parlor tricks of trying to say I said something I didn't and then claiming I'm dodging what you made up are pathetic.

klarek says

Your hyperbole suggests that I have struck a nerve. Don’t like the truth much, do you?

Ummm...go look up hyperbole. You cite eminent domain as a reason why you could lose the house. Thus, chicken little is an apt description. You dwell on the negative of everything related to owning. Curmudgeon is a perfect fit. No hyperbole here.

It took you all that to say a basic catch phrase, "nothing in life is guaranteed." Way to go!

bubblesitter says

I still have to see a 0.00001% hike in my rent this year. LOL.

Same. But that wasn't the point of him posting it, it was to distract from having just been nailed for his bullshit. S.O.P., he just changes the subject.

klarek says

bubblesitter says

I still have to see a 0.00001% hike in my rent this year. LOL.

Same. But that wasn’t the point of him posting it, it was to distract from having just been nailed for his bullshit. S.O.P., he just changes the subject.

Nothing new there...