patrick.net

dunnross says

The cultural diversity that this city boasts is mostly limited to people from south-east Asia. You will say that people are willing to pay this much money, so it must be justified

For the amount of living space, SF and the Bay Area are Bargain Prices, and The Wide Open Spaces, compared to where they came from.

That is all that matters.

sybrib says

dunnross says

The cultural diversity that this city boasts is mostly limited to people from south-east Asia. You will say that people are willing to pay this much money, so it must be justified

For the amount of living space, SF and the Bay Area are Bargain Prices, and The Wide Open Spaces, compared to where they came from.
That is all that matters.

Chinese and Indian cities are only more expensive than SF relative to their salaries, but, in nominal terms, SF is still more expensive. But, housing in those countries currently is only affordable to the oligarchs. Eventually, when they run out of the last oligarch to buy, there will be a housing crash the likes of which hasn't been witnessed in the modern world.

Can't agree more with dunross. Money is limited and every one wants to be rich? Not possible. Economics 101!

dunnross says

SubOink says

have done a cross country trip and I have to say…well, Ohio is…just Ohio. Very plain and very simple. You can’t compare it. If CA was as cheap as Ohio, why would anybody live in Ohio?

This is not true. Overall there are many places just as nice or nicer than San Francisco for different reasons than the weather. Plus the weather in San Francisco isn’t so great that it justifies such high prices. The city is very provincial. There are no world class theaters, music halls or museums that you can find in cities like New York, Chicago or Madrid. The people are very rude and obnoxious. The cultural diversity that this city boasts is mostly limited to people from south-east Asia. You will say that people are willing to pay this much money, so it must be justified, but that was true back in 2006 at the peak of the bubble, as well.

I was talking about CA as a whole. I have pictures of OHIO, they look like this...cornfields...cornfields...cornfields. Then there were also cornfields. Los Angeles has EVERYTHING world class. Including the worlds best orchestra. I don't know much about SF, I only visited it once. But wine country, Napa Valley...worldclass!! ...Don't find that in Ohio. I am not sure what you would find in Ohio that is better than CA = > Prices reflect it. It's very simple.

And the weather is superb. Period! The only place that is better is Hawaii. That is, when you do nothing and hang on the beach, sip on a cocktail. Otherwise, too humid for me. Florida has very nice parts. But, its also not cheap there. Love the warm, green water there. Once again, not a fan of the humidity. Cali is the best!! :) (I wasn't born in CA so I really appreciate it)

SubOink says

And the weather is superb. Period!

Well... except when it gets so dry that the earth itself catches on fire...

SubOink says

The only place that is better is Hawaii.

Because even though gas is more expensive there, at least they have poi...

SubOink says

That is, when you do nothing and hang on the beach, sip on a cocktail. [...] Cali is the best!!

AND because no matter what, at the end of the day you can still get your drunk on and hang out with horny old sluts like this!

No offense meant to you suboink... I just couldn't help myself!

terrideaner, you should clearly move to Ohio then. It will solve all your problems :)

also, I am disappointed - no mentioning of earthquakes?? Come on, that would have been a much better shocker, given the recent events in japan.

SubOink says

terrideaner, you should clearly move to Ohio then. It will solve all your problems :)

Eh... there's good and bad anywhere you live. I just surprises me that Californians place this state on such a high pedestal when there are many obvious disadvantages to living here.

SubOink says

also, I am disappointed - no mentioning of earthquakes?? Come on, that would have been a much better shocker,

Aw, C'mon now, that angle is played out, even in the sticks... That said, that housewives garbage is beamed out-of-state such that no one is truly safe anywhere.

terriDeaner says

Eh… there’s good and bad anywhere you live. I just surprises me that Californians place this state on such a high pedestal when there are many obvious disadvantages to living here.

The way Californians vote, nothing surprises me.

terriDeaner says

Eh… there’s good and bad anywhere you live. I just surprises me that Californians place this state on such a high pedestal when there are many obvious disadvantages to living here.

My thinking here often gets to very basic facts. Facts like humans are mammals, which means we regulate our own temperature at 98F against the ambient temperature. I can live in San Francisco year round without heating or air conditioning. All it takes is a good blanket. That's pretty cool! There's a lot of comfort in knowing you could just turn off all your electricity and survive fine in just the shelter of the wood/stone/drywall around you any time of year. Obviously, there are threats against that in California, but they are almost all big disaster threats, that are arguably everywhere. Meteors hit less often, but can hit anywhere.

Anyway, weather addresses very basic human needs, which is why it is so prominent people's view of the world.

Add to that the way San Francisco is organized. I walk to the grocery store(there are two in my neighborhood, three if I'm willing to walk a mile round trip to Whole Foods). I walk to the park. I walk to baseball games, I walk to museums. I walk to work. I walk to live concerts and music. The neighborood nearest me, two blocks(about 1/4 mile), includes two cafes, a Vietnamese restaurant, two Japanese restaurants, a pizzaria(where they have an all-you-can eat $10 neighborhood night and piano player), an Italian/Californian restaurant, a Turkish/Mediterranean restaurant, two French restaurants, a bakery, a branch of the city library, two parks, one rec center where I've played basketball for over ten years, and amazing views of the city skyline, bay, and bridges.

Admittedly, some of these things just have inexplainable connections for me and cause me to smile deeply, but there are also some very basic reaons why California living is highly valued. Walking(maybe unique to San Francisco and SoCal/SilVal are still strong car driving cultures), eating, music, learning, and temperature are really enjoyable parts of living.

wagamama says

We made out by selling at the peak of the market and had 250K to put down, leaving us with a max’ed out conventional mortgage.

I'm just really confused by the post that started this thread. You're seeking "permanence" but your own experience of house owning suggests significant impermanence. I'm understanding what you wrote to mean you were owning a house and sold it in the last three years or so, moved into an apartment, and now are moving again into a house you bought for $650k.

I think money is driving your decisions and with so much of it on the line in owning a house, I think your decisions will definitely derive from your ownership. That is certainly "permanence" in that much of your thinking will now be based on the money you've spent on the house. That condition of thinking, though, has so far seemed very precarious to me.

I'm basing my comments on the idea that $650k is a large amount of money relative net worth. If someone's net worth is many millions, then maybe $650k is not that much to spend.

Isn't it strange to others that we are so willing to spend so much borrowed money on houses? I think it has reached a point of abstraction that few comprehend. This is why Patrick provides so much information here around the disparity between the very rich and the rest in the U.S. Most of us can't even comprehend what it's like to be the very rich. Our comprehension is so low, we willingly spend all the money we have plus a multiple of that amount borrowed from the very rich just to say/think we own our place of shelter. For this reason, I completely agree with someone from Ohio saying there's much to be desired in California. The condition of home ownership here is onerous, at best.

Still, we all have the potential to spend less and live more like the very rich.

uni6jon2 says

Admittedly, some of these things just have inexplainable connections for me and cause me to smile deeply, but there are also some very basic reaons why California living is highly valued.

Don't get me wrong, I do understand that many Californians (over)value things like temperature relative to other equally/more important factors that determine overall quality of life... I just surprises me that they do. After all, there is this new invention called the 'coat' that is all the rage out east!

Plus, SF weather is not all that great all the time. Unless blustery, 50ish('F) mid-June days are your idea of great summertime weather.

uni6jon2 says

Walking(maybe unique to San Francisco and SoCal/SilVal are still strong car driving cultures), eating, music, learning, and temperature are really enjoyable parts of living.

You can enjoy these things in many US cities and in cities elsewhere in the world. San Francisco, while a fun place to be, is not the only place on earth that is worth living in.

uni6jon2 says

For this reason, I completely agree with someone from Ohio saying there’s much to be desired in California.

?

The only someone here who identified themselves as being from Ohio said something quite the opposite:

StoutFiles says

It’s insane how different most of California is from the rest of the country. Here in Ohio, 675k would buy you a mega mansion…you’d have the nicest house in the county! I just can’t fathom spending that much money on a house, and as an engineer I make decent money.

The thought of putting myself in a situation where I could have almost half a million dollars of debt makes me woozy. You all should just leave CA and live like kings elsewhere if you have so much money to throw away on, as Patrick said, a big box that rots in the rain.

terriDeaner says

The only someone here who identified themselves as being from Ohio said something quite the opposite:

Yes, I'm not supporting buying a standard house at a incredibly inflated price. I've been to CA, it's nice! Yosemite was very impressive (the real jewel of CA)...but CA wasn't world's better than any of the states I've been to (around 35). Every state has its pro's and con's...but not many put you in a mountain of debt to live in a quality house in a good town.

I find it humorous that people think California is this magical place that is irreplaceable anywhere else, and all other states are basically the boonies. Restaurants and entertainment are not exclusive to California. Culture is not exclusive to California. Technology like movies, music, the internet...it's the same everywhere. Many states have good weather year round.

All it is is an overpriced, overcrowded, incredibly bankrupt state. If just some of you looking for these half mil houses would venture out of there, you could buy something equally nice for half the price and then use the extra money to vacation to places that are really worth being in. Having no debt...what a crazy thought!

StoutFiles says

If just some of you looking for these half mil houses would venture out of there, you could buy something equally nice for half the price

the problem is in Ohio they wouldn't have the job to support a half mil dollar mortgage.

toothfairy says

StoutFiles says

If just some of you looking for these half mil houses would venture out of there, you could buy something equally nice for half the price

the problem is in Ohio they wouldn’t have the job to support a half mil dollar mortgage.

Neither does CA. That is the problem. Avg. salary in CA = $68K. Avg. salary in OH = $53K.

And for the record, there are plenty of high paying jobs in OH...

toothfairy says

the problem is in Ohio they wouldn’t have the job to support a half mil dollar mortgage.

Well at least ~12% or so of Californians definitely don't have the job to support a half-mil mortgage(calculatedriskblog):

tatupu70 says

Neither does CA. That is the problem. Avg. salary in CA = $68K. Avg. salary in OH = $53K.

And for the record, there are plenty of high paying jobs in OH…

Zing!

tatupu70 says

Neither does CA. That is the problem. Avg. salary in CA = $68K. Avg. salary in OH = $53K.

actually for the area we're talking about the average salary is more like $100k

toothfairy says

tatupu70 says

Neither does CA. That is the problem. Avg. salary in CA = $68K. Avg. salary in OH = $53K.

actually for the area we’re talking about the average salary is more like $100k

OK--I thought we were talking about CA. What area of OH are we talking about then? Let's keep it apples to apples.

tatupu70 says

What area of OH are we talking about then? Let’s keep it apples to apples.

if it's apples to apples then show me which part of Ohio has an average salary of 100k
and what are the house prices like there.

toothfairy says

if it’s apples to apples then show me which part of Ohio has an average salary of 100k
and what are the house prices like there.

That's part of what I'm talking about! If you make 100k/year, why must everyone live in the designated "100k" area where houses are too expensive? Do people love debt? It's as if everyone needs to push their money as far as it'll go for a house.

I can find areas of Ohio around the big cities (Cincy, Columbus, Cleveland) where houses are overpriced...what does that prove? Every state has those areas. What I'm saying is while Cali's average salary is a little higher, the average home price is A LOT higher. You aren't getting close to good value there.

StoutFiles says

All it is is an overpriced, overcrowded, incredibly bankrupt state. If just some of you looking for these half mil houses would venture out of there, you could buy something equally nice for half the price and then use the extra money to vacation to places that are really worth being in. Having no debt…what a crazy thought!

CA has 50% better weather. :-)

StoutFiles says

What I’m saying is while Cali’s average salary is a little higher, the average home price is A LOT higher. You aren’t getting close to good value there.

When you say "A LOT," you do realize it's $54k higher versus national:

CA's median price is $249k
http://www.dqnews.com/Articles/2011/News/California/RRCA110414.aspx

Nationally, it is $195k
http://www.dqnews.com/Articles/2011/News/US/RRUS110404.aspx

For the same sq ft? The same lot size?

StoutFiles says

For the same sq ft? The same lot size?

If those questions are directed to me, you are asking for specifics of a very broad generalization. Even though I put numbers up there with a comparison of CA versus the US, it's a pretty silly comparison. CA includes Modesto where you could get a large house on a large lot for $200k and Palo Alto where you get a small house on a small lot for $1M+. You can't realistically compare averages or medians of a state the size and population of CA. Pick a section and compare that. Even SF is too broad to really compare. If you buy in the area where you're gonna get shot, the price isn't that bad. If you buy with a view of the GG Bridge, the price is very high.

ch_tah says

When you say “A LOT,” you do realize it’s $54k higher versus national:

CA’s median price is $249k
http://www.dqnews.com/Articles/2011/News/California/RRCA110414.aspx

Nationally, it is $195k
http://www.dqnews.com/Articles/2011/News/US/RRUS110404.aspx

Where do the rest of the states fall in this price distribution?

terriDeaner says

I just surprises me that they do. After all, there is this new invention called the ‘coat’ that is all the rage out east!
Plus, SF weather is not all that great all the time. Unless blustery, 50ish(’F) mid-June days are your idea of great summertime weather.

That is exactly how the costs start to even out. Coats!! Man, those things are expensive! Hats, gloves, snowblowers, house insulation(although I disagree with houses not having insulation in San Francisco because of the energy waste). A constant, costly struggle against the elements, I tell you. Some people do seem to enjoy it. Similarly a fair number of people now live in deserts thanks to technology that counteracts their own body's inability to survive the climate where they set up home.

Not to mention the annual cost of heating a house. If you're willing to wear a long sleeve shirt or, even more powerfully, A SWEATER, indoors during two months of the year, you could easily gas heat a two-story three or four bedroom house in San Francisco for $500/year.

Any adherence to traditions like "summer days are for hot weather" starts to wear down reason. San Francisco summer days are very, very comfortable but get a lot of notice because they can be just as cool in August as they can in January. Don't forget the opposite is true, though! We can have warm weather days approaching 80 in December, January, and February and that's even fairly expected after twelve "winters" of living here. This year is an extreme example and yet we've still maintained average rain levels. There's just not extremes here like most places and cities in the U.S. The weather here is not matched anywhere else in the U.S. and may only have a close approximation in the world around the Mediterranean Sea.

I've seen "walkable" city charts occasionally and there are some surpisingly walkable cities in places that would only be walkable during warm months. I lived in Portland, OR before San Francisco and, while walkable, is still far, far too big to cover the entire city walking. If you decide you want to walk to any location in San Francisco, it doesn't take much health, endurance to do it.

terriDeaner says

Where do the rest of the states fall in this price distribution?

Dunno. I don't see it on DQ. They only have CA by state; everything else is by city. It's almost as if they think CA is better than other parts of the country.

uni6jon2 says

Not to mention the annual cost of heating a house.

This is an interesting point, but I'd like to see some quantification before drawing too many conclusions. After all, the rest of the country is non-uniform in terms of winter severity and summertime heat.

uni6jon2 says

Don’t forget the opposite is true, though! We can have warm weather days approaching 80 in December, January, and February

So can many other parts of the country. And don't forget tourists can enjoy this weather here, on vacation for much less than it costs to live here year round.

uni6jon2 says

I’ve seen “walkable” city charts occasionally and there are some surpisingly walkable cities in places that would only be walkable during warm months. I lived in Portland, OR before San Francisco and, while walkable, is still far, far too big to cover the entire city walking. If you decide you want to walk to any location in San Francisco, it doesn’t take much health, endurance to do it.

I dunno, try walking from Union Square up Mason street to the Tonga Room sometime. And if walkability is your thing, try Manhattan - even smaller and flatter.

terriDeaner says

try Manhattan sometime - even smaller and flatter.

Yeah, those Manhattan prices...very affordable.

ch_tah says

It’s almost as if they think CA is better than other parts of the country.

This might have something to do with it:

Contact Us
Learn how DataQuick can drive your business faster
Corporate Headquarters
Address: 9620 Towne Centre Drive, San Diego, CA 92121
Phone: 858.597.3100

ch_tah says

terriDeaner says

try Manhattan sometime - even smaller and flatter.

Yeah, those Manhattan prices…very affordable.

So there ARE more important things to consider when purchasing property than temperature and walkability, even for Californians?! (assuming you are one, ch_tah)

uni6jon2 says

The weather here is not matched anywhere else in the U.S. and may only have a close approximation in the world around the Mediterranean Sea.

Sounds like you've found a good place for your tastes...

terriDeaner says

This might have something to do with it:

Contact Us
Learn how DataQuick can drive your business faster
Corporate Headquarters
Address: 9620 Towne Centre Drive, San Diego, CA 92121
Phone: 858.597.3100

Ah, another one of those businesses that is surviving the oppressive, anti-business state of California.

ch_tah says

Ah, another one of those businesses that is surviving the oppressive, anti-business state of California.

For now. Most of the employees there are probably forced to drive used chevys and take all of their business lunches at 'Wendy's', though...

terriDeaner says

So there ARE more important things to consider when purchasing property than temperature and walkability, even for Californians?! (assuming you are one, ch_tah)

I'm not sure what's most important. I would think they are all factors (price, walkability, jobs, weather, diversity, etc.) For now, it seems like people are willing to pay a bit more for those other factors for places in NYC and parts of CA.

terriDeaner says

Not to mention the annual cost of heating a house.
This is an interesting point, but I’d like to see some quantification before drawing too many conclusions. After all, the rest of the country is non-uniform in terms of winter severity and summertime heat.

This data on "heating" and "cooling" days is not easy to understand, but a start. I've wondered how much price/kWhr is adjusted by PGE to compensate for the fact that San Franciscans don't, generally, need air conditioning. That data is not accounted for at all here.

http://www.homeinsight.com/home-value/ca/san_francisco.asp

ch_tah says

Don’t forget the opposite is true, though! We can have warm weather days approaching 80 in December, January, and February
So can many other parts of the country. And don’t forget tourists can enjoy this weather here, on vacation for much less than it costs to live here year round.

I know I'm not taking time to write clearly, but I meant warm weather in winter months is normal for San Francisco. That was definitely not true where I grew up in Colorado, but it did happen occasionally in that very sunny state. It might even happen once or twice a year. In San Francisco, warm weather is common for weeks of the winter. This winter was a joke. We basically had no winter so far. Some would say we made up for it last August, but, again, that's us Californians complaining because it goes into the fifties(F) in August. No surprise and a good time to break out those stylish jackets(what we wear instead of coats.)

terriDeaner says

I dunno, try walking from Union Square up Mason street to the Tonga Room sometime. And if walkability is your thing, try Manhattan - even smaller and flatter.

Well, I think stats around fitness show different standards for California too. ; ) There are some steep streets here. I live on Potrero Hill, so get to walk up steep ones regularly. I need the activity, though, as my exercising time seems to be shrinking to zero. Making your commute exercise is helpful living in a lot of ways.

I love Manhattan! Wouldn't want to walk much there in January or July or February or August or November or March or December though. I already take the car barely over a mile to work most days. I haven't shown myself to be organized by priorities in that regard. I probably walk to work a third of the year at most.