patrick.net

Schizlor says

I am not saying anyone’s stupid for buying, or that I don’t want to buy, or that homeownership does not have many intangible benefits (sure I’m going to love working with tools in my garage and landscaping the yard and all that)

Just so it is preserved.

Schizlor--

I agree with much of what you say, but please stop this nonsense:

Schizlor says

You don’t own the home anyway until it’s unencumbered by any lien.

Here is a whole other approach:

Imagine you won the lottery, 40Mill. Are you going to keep renting or would you buy a house?

Klarek and Schizlor - what's your answer?

Many communities and homeowner associations put up restrictions on what you can and cannot do do with your won home. So it may not be true, you can do what ever you want to your home.

And time to time we hear about this.

Colorado homeowner’s association wants American flag removed.

http://www.ldjackson.net/news-politics/colorado-homeowners-association-wants-american-flag-removed/

Eminence Police cite residents for tall grass

http://www.whas11.com/news/crimetracker/Eminence-Police-cite-residents-for-tall-grass-95553094.html

Residents of Eminence are claiming that unfair fines are being levied for grass that is too long.

Homeowner cited for backyard habitat

http:/s2.gardenweb.coms/load/wtrsow/msg071445375772.html

Vicki Wozniak's garden in this town is designed to attract butterflies, hummingbirds and other winged critters. It is one-eighth of an acre almost totally covered by sunflowers, honeysuckle, azaleas and many other plantings.

But to local officials, her friendliness to wildlife looks like a nuisance. They've accused her of failing to maintain her property, a charge she is contesting.

The first guilty violation is $100. If you get five there could be jail time included.

“homeownership pride”

Who knows, maybe by the year 2020 or 2025 if your home isnt "Green Friendly" enough by someones standards, you may be fined by the city/county.

Too rainy to mow the lawn? Syracuse homeowners could be cited

SYRACUSE -- For many gardeners, the spring rains have been a little too much of a good thing. Even on a rainy days, Shelley Griffith tends her flowers and keeps the yard neat, but she's frustrated that not everyone in her neighborhood does.

"I come from the North Country. I see pasture fields and meadows and my neighbor has a meadow," said Griffith.

Syracuse code enforcement has been cutting some slack when it came to citing unmowed lawns, but as some lawns go to seed that courtesy is ending.

"We kind of gave people a break with the rain. We'll get out there - we'll probably cite anywhere from five to six hundred in a week," said Syracuse Code Enforcement Director Mike Bova.

If your lawn is cited, the city gives the homeowner five days to get it cleaned up. If they don't, the citation goes to the law department. The law department then typically works with homeowners to make sure the lawn is being mowed. If a solution can not be worked out, a charge for a city lawn mowing crew can be added to your taxes. Codes Enforcement Director Mike Bova says it is extremely rare for the city to mow the lawn of an occupied home and that usually the issues are worked out.

This is just dumb, why would they cite someone for not mowing their lawn. What if one is used to meadows, we don't all like the same commercial flowers on our lawns.

That should end up in court.

Schizlor says

Again, a benefit is something inherent, something you have to give nothing more to achieve. A benefit to having a record contract is getting free limos, plane, and helicopter rides everywhere you need to go, on the company dime. If the company said, “yeah, you can use the chopper….as long as you gas it up, file the flight plans, provide your own pilot, and return it to where you picked it up fully-fueled and ready for the next guy”, I’d be inclined to say that’s simply an ‘option’ I have been given. It’s not a benefit if I have to do all the fucking work. It’s an OPTION. You can argue homeownership gives you more options in the home improvement department, but also more responsibilites as well. (ie, a trade-off, not a pure benefit)

I'm curious, if you changed your example slightly to getting to play Augusta, but you do have to pay the greens fees and did actually have to hit your own balls, is that an option, trade-off (let's assume they also force you to carry your own bag - oh, the humanity), a benefit, an "intangible benefit," or something else?

tatupu70 says

The only money subject to the opportunity cost is your down payment

nope

your downpayment, principal portions of your monthly mortgage payment and any capital improvements (which you hope to recoup when you sell) are all subject to opportunity costs.

SubOink says

Imagine you won the lottery, 40Mill. Are you going to keep renting or would you buy a house?

Did you know that most big investment banks don't own their buildings? They have billions and they rent. And for those who do own, they take out big loans on the properties, they don't own outright.

Food for thought, the world's craftiest financiers know that there are generally better things to do with your money than own property, even if you live in it. (here come the 'wall streeters are stupid' comments... they continue to get paid ass loads, being stupid pays I guess)

Coogan99 says

your downpayment, principal portions of your monthly mortgage payment and any capital improvements (which you hope to recoup when you sell) are all subject to opportunity costs

I'll agree about capital improvements, but principal repayment should not necessarily be subject to opportunity costs. If the P+I is the same as rent, then there is no missed opportunity...

You can argue any difference in P+I should be subject to opportunity costs although you should factor in tax savings too.

Coogan99 says

capital improvements (which you hope to recoup when you sell)

Mostly, you are hoping to ENJOY those improvements...the trick to real estate is never sell. And an improved home will bring you more rent than a run down one.

Do I care about getting $ for $ on my improvements? No. That's not why I am doing it. I want my home to be awesome, I want to live in a nice place. When I throw out the old carpet and replace with brand new hardwoodfloor, I don't care about capital gains etc...When you walk into your house, you want to feel great about it.

When you rent an updated home, all the improvements are baked into the monthly rent. Either way, you are paying for it.

ch_tah says

I never said you bashed homeownership, learn to read. I said “homeownership pride.”

Homeownership pride IS bullshit, and deserves to be bashed. If George Carlin were alive today, he'd probably go off on an epic rant about how our country is so full of morons who actually feel proud about paying a half million dollars on something with somebody else's money, which they will pay back over 30 years, plus an amount of interest greater than the loan itself. I'm somewhere between amusement and pity when someone talks about homeowner pride, like they did anything to be proud of other than believe their dipshit realtor's selling points.

You should feel pride for making an accomplishment: finishing your college degree. running a 10k, doing a thousand sit-ups, saving a cat from a tree, and yes - being smart with your money. If you want to feel proud by bucking the average down-payment in the U.S. when you purchase a house, I would never bash that. If you're proud of taking on hundreds of thousands in debt and signing your name to a piece of paper so you can paint your walls, you ought to expect to be bashed for such effortless and thoughtless stupidity.

ch_tah says

Why would you only do things to a place once you buy and not to one you rent unless there was some difference in ownership (ie some sort of pride in your home).

Boredom. A false sense of equity return. Necessity. There are reasons, rational or not, and they have little to do with pride. If you do the labor and planning yourself to finish your basement, you can be proud of that. Doing it out of pride? That's silly.

ch_tah says

That’s nice that you and Klarek are buddies and you are going to stand up for him. Care to explain why he’s so uptight and angry with the world since he won’t? Why it’s hard for him to utter a sentence without cursing?

He was vouching that the stupid personal question which you asked which wasn't true. I was using a common example of how "ownership" is a a false pride, dear to many people, and for no good reason. It can be cultural. You let that point sail clear over your head.

I've only sworn a few times in this thread, but I don't suffer fools well. It gets a bit frustrating when you have to say the same thing ten times while arguing with somebody whose agenda is either to be antagonistic, or to support their pathetic post-purchase rationalization. It's not anger so much as frustration. The anger is solely focused on the asshole realtors who ruin peoples finances by uttering stupid selling points which naive would-be customers lap up, then repeat to their naive friends. Sometimes there's a need to swear, to tell somebody they are out of their fucking mind for believing such baseless bullshit.

ch_tah says

It is semantics as Klarek was using it. Just because you and I both said the word “semantics” doesn’t mean we were talking about the same thing.

No, it's absolutely a semantics issue, and the context I used was the exact same as the one you were using. Better just to save face and stop calling it a benefit since you've already conceded to Schizlor that it is semantics, and you were twisting a tradeoff into a "benefit", which it isn't.

ch_tah says

I’m not sure why you guys get so huffy puffy about articles like this.

Because it's using fallacious and irrelevant points to argue for home-ownership. It's the most expensive purchase someone will make in their life, and first time buyers are not by definition very savvy. The lend too much trust to the criminals who work in that industry, people who peddle lines like "prices only go up" and "owning is good for your kids". So yeah, when I read shit which puffs up one's ability to paint walls or "my child's smile", like they have ANYTHING to do with home ownership, it makes me feel sick because there's some unwitting soul who is going to buy into it.

SubOink says

Here is a whole other approach:
Imagine you won the lottery, 40Mill. Are you going to keep renting or would you buy a house?
Klarek and Schizlor - what’s your answer?

It wouldn't impact my decision at all, at least I don't think it would. I certainly wouldn't blow the money on a mansion.

klarek says

Boredom. A false sense of equity return. Necessity. There are reasons, rational or not, and they have little to do with pride. If you do the labor and planning yourself to finish your basement, you can be proud of that. Doing it out of pride? That’s silly.

That's not what schilzor said. He said he would enjoy doing it. Actually, his word was "love" doing landscaping and more. Now if it's something you love, why would you only do it in a house you own but not one you rent? Clearly there is a difference. I'm sure it's not "pride," it's probably some word or phrase very similar to pride like "intangible pride."
klarek says

arguing with somebody whose agenda is either to be antagonistic, or to support their pathetic post-purchase rationalization.

Go back to the top of the thread and read my first post and then read your first post. Who was being antagonistic (aside from questioning whether the original poster actually read the article)? Who was being fair and called painting walls a trivial point?

Keep your pissed-offed-ness at realtors. I'm not one. I don't like them. I don't think the people who wrote the article were realtors either.
klarek says

“my child’s smile”

Having a home CAN be a good thing for a child. Children like familiarity. If you have a great situation like edvard, that's very similar to owning. If you move around every year, that CAN be difficult on a child. When we last moved, it took our daughter several weeks to feel comfortable in the new home. Again, just because a situation doesn't apply to you, doesn't mean it isn't true for others.

ch_tah says

I’m curious, if you changed your example slightly to getting to play Augusta, but you do have to pay the greens fees and did actually have to hit your own balls, is that an option, trade-off (let’s assume they also force you to carry your own bag - oh, the humanity), a benefit, an “intangible benefit,” or something else?

Getting to play but having to pay = option

Getting to play for FREE = benefit

(obviously we're not actually considering playing the game a burden, otherwise you'd politely decline the offer to play in the first place)

SubOink says

Here is a whole other approach:
Imagine you won the lottery, 40Mill. Are you going to keep renting or would you buy a house?
Klarek and Schizlor - what’s your answer?

Yes. But not at the moment necessarily. That's my point. Im just saying that even with 40 mil in cash, I would not consider now a good time to buy because of the option to paint the walls. I watch the market fundamentals. I always know the option to modify the property is there. It's ALWAYS there as an option. So table it, and make the decision to buy based on the market. Give me 1 million, or a hundred million, it still wouldn't sway my decision to forgo "paint the walls without asking!" and consider more pertinent things like "are property values continuing to fall at 5-10% a year?"

This whole business has gone way over the top. To clairfy again, I am NOT anti-homeownership. I do NOT contend that all benefits of homeownership are false/worthless. What I DO contend is that getting to modify your property should NOT be in the top 5 reasons you're thinking it's a good time to buy.

You tell me you have 5 great reasons you want to buy RIGHT NOW, and list, "I don't have to ask a landlord before I repaint the den", and I will laugh in your face and say that's the dumbest shit I've ever heard in my life. Period.

Schizlor says

ch_tah says

I’m curious, if you changed your example slightly to getting to play Augusta, but you do have to pay the greens fees and did actually have to hit your own balls, is that an option, trade-off (let’s assume they also force you to carry your own bag - oh, the humanity), a benefit, an “intangible benefit,” or something else?

Getting to play but having to pay = option

Getting to play for FREE = benefit

(obviously we’re not actually considering playing the game a burden, otherwise you’d politely decline the offer to play in the first place)

I've never heard or read a definition of benefit that requires it to have no drawbacks whatsoever. Since I can't play Augusta now, but if I were a rock star or whatever, and I did get to play even if I had to pay my own way, I'm pretty damn sure that's a benefit.

Maybe this will help:
dictionary.com
definition of benefit
–noun
1.
something that is advantageous or good; an advantage

ch_tah says

I do like how working with tools in your garage and landscaping the yard are “intangible benefits” at the end of your post. I guess they couldn’t also be referred to generally as “benefits” or “homeownership pride.” No, since it’s your phrase it’s ok, but when someone else says the same thing slightly differently, they are stupid.

It's obvious that saying on one hand there may be benefits to homeownership, while at the same time contesting that some of them are way too frivolous to be considered "Reasons now is a great time to buy" material, is far too nuanced an argument for you to grasp at this juncture, so we'll just agree to disagree on this.

"Now is a great time to buy! And here's why!"

"Um, I think that one reason is pretty weak to be considered a "reason now's a great time to buy. I mean, how is that ever any different? How does that make NOW a great time to buy? How is that distinguishable from any other period in time one might buy a home? I don't like that argument at all, framed in the context of it distinguishing NOW as being a great time, as opposed to any other time."

"THAT'S BECAUSE YOUR A GRUMPY DOOM-AND GLOOMER WHO WANTS TO SPEW HATE AND CALL EVERYONE ELSE STUPID AND SHIT ON OUR PARADES!! WHY DO YOU HAVE TO FORCE YOUR AGENDA DOWN EVERYONE'S THROAT??!! NOT EVERYONE HAS TO THINK LIKE YOU DO!!!"

"Ummm....I never said they did. I said the argument was a weak one. It's an opinion. If you think it's brilliant, so be it."

You might also think getting to have a nose job if you want one is a "benefit" of living in America. I don't. I just see it as an option I have as a citizen. Sure, there are some in other countries who cannot afford it or do not have access to doctor's who'll do it. Still doesn't mean I'd put, "getting to have any elective surgery you want" in my list of all-time great benefits of moving to America.

Right, all of what you said points to, in your opinion, being able to remodel a home, or do yardwork (that you love), and other "intangible benefits" are not significant enough to be one of the many reasons to buy a home. Other people disagree.

ch_tah says

Right, all of what you said points to, in your opinion, being able to remodel a home, or do yardwork (that you love), and other “intangible benefits” are not significant enough to be one of the many reasons to buy a home. Other people disagree.

If you meant to say:

....one of the many reasons 'Why it's TIME to buy', that's absolutely correct.

Schizlor says

SubOink says

Here is a whole other approach:
Imagine you won the lottery, 40Mill. Are you going to keep renting or would you buy a house?
Klarek and Schizlor - what’s your answer?

Yes. But not at the moment necessarily. That’s my point. Im just saying that even with 40 mil in cash

Wow! So now we established that you will never buy a home.
If you don't buy a home with 40Mill in Cash in the bank because you are worried that the house value may drop 10% next year then I cannot help you, brother.

Speechless!!

My prediction for you is that you will never buy a house in your life. You will be 65 years old having to pay rent every month...there goes the soc security + the 401 + the savings...

SubOink says

If you don’t buy a home with 40Mill in Cash

$40M doesnt mean you go stupid overnite as some did when they hit the lotto or other means to wealth. There is a lot of things one can do with $1.5M and one is not blow it like a crack addict. Some people are just rich and stupid.

Steven Spielberg Sells Malibu Home at a Loss

Not everyone is making money in the California real estate boom. Director Steven Spielberg just sold his oceanfront Malibu home, not his primary residence, for approximately $4.5 million or $1.5 million less than he paid for the property when he purchased it in 1992. His loss is his lucky buyer's gain.

SubOink says

My prediction for you is that you will never buy a house in your life. You will be 65 years old having to pay rent every month…there goes the soc security + the 401 + the savings…

Have we not heard this all before during the bubble, and long ago back in the early 90s from realtors.

SubOink, your predictions is based on home prices never fall and correct to long term fundemental trends. And in the long run they do correct. We seen it back in 1990s and we are seeing it once again. I been there and i lived through it.

Another costly mistake... Blow money like there is no tomorrow.

Agassi suffers a loss -- in sale of Tiburon home

http://articles.sfgate.com/2006-11-29/business/17320043_1_agassi-and-graf-mcguire-real-estate-tennis-stars-andre-agassi

November 29, 2006|By Marni Leff Kottle, Chronicle Staff Writer

It took almost four years, but retired tennis stars Andre Agassi and Steffi Graf finally have found a buyer for their Tiburon estate for $20 million, or about $3 million less than what they paid for it in 2001.

$3M Agassi will never see again.

SubOink says

Wow! So now we established that you will never buy a home.
If you don’t buy a home with 40Mill in Cash in the bank because you are worried that the house value may drop 10% next year then I cannot help you, brother.

Speechless!!

The fact that you could make a gamble like that with money that's not even yours which you'll be paying back (doubly), without regard for how in the hole you'll be, is absolutely remarkable. You scoff at prudence and you're the poster child of American consumerist foolishness.

SubOink says

My prediction for you is that you will never buy a house in your life. You will be 65 years old having to pay rent every month…there goes the soc security + the 401 + the savings…

If you're going to get personal like that, then I have to say that you're a fucking idiot. I've known him a long time, and he's never ever been anti-homeownership. Had you bothered to read, you'd see that he said the same thing up above no less than three times. He is anti stupid-people-buying-homes-for-dumb-reasons, which you seem to epitomize.

klarek says

you’re the poster child of American consumerist foolishness.

SO is in LA, should tell you something. Somethings never change. LA has always been awash with RE and mortgage industry. They are nose deep in RE and cant handle the price declines.. True today as its been true for decades past.

klarek says

SubOink says

Wow! So now we established that you will never buy a home.
If you don’t buy a home with 40Mill in Cash in the bank because you are worried that the house value may drop 10% next year then I cannot help you, brother.

Speechless!!

The fact that you could make a gamble like that with money that’s not even yours which you’ll be paying back (doubly), without regard for how in the hole you’ll be, is absolutely remarkable. You scoff at prudence and you’re the poster child of American consumerist foolishness.

What are you talking about..."with money that's not even yours"?? - READ the context. We were talking about winning the lottery!! The money would be yours. But your homeboy wouldn't even buy a house if he won the lottery (so he said) and had 40million in the bank.

If somebody tells me that he wouldn't buy a house even though he had 40million in the bank, then its clear - he is against homeownership! Period!!

How many people would not buy a house after they win the lottery?? And how many people would reason not buying because next year the house could be a little less worth??

When you own a house and live in it then its always something worth. It's worth what you would have to pay in rent if you didn't own the house. Who cares about papervalue in that case.

I don't know how that makes me a posterchild of american consumerist foolishness...then again...Sarah Palin may agree with you.

thomas.wong1986 says

klarek says

you’re the poster child of American consumerist foolishness.

SO is in LA, should tell you something. Somethings never change. LA has always been awash with RE and mortgage industry. They are nose deep in RE and cant handle the price declines.. True today as its been true for decades past.

What a dumb statement.

Let me remind you that I just bought my house...the price decline has not crushed me, neither is it bothering me as I pay the same amount in mortgage than I used to pay rent for a house way bigger and an even nicer neighborhood with the best school system (no private school required). We both work, but bank my wife's income. We could pay the mortgage from her income too.

But hey, I am the poster child of american consumerist foolishness, so don't listen to me...also I am SOOO LA.

You guys are lame and the definition of what is a "Hater".

I commented earlier but will again. Friend of mine started out in nursing same time I started in IT. She now makes double what I make, money is literally falling out of her pockets, plenty of people can afford to get into homes now, and will because they can. The particular person I mention, between her and her hub., they can afford to make payments on three homes, renting the other two. I had to sell my home, everything else was going up, for the most part, while my income was going down. It really came down to either owning the home outright in 10-15 years, or having a nice retirement nest egg in 10-15 years.