patrick.net

StoutFiles says

Because I was beginning to think everyone considered that logic to be foolproof and it was scaring me.

It has a small hint of truth to it, in that there can be a contagion to highly discounted housing prices, but for a single community economic base area only, and only if the number and magnitude of the discounts get up to a critical mass. This helps explain why banks and the government wouldn't want prices to drop too quickly. Not just because of the negative feedback loop that would result (more and more walk aways) but also because too many deeply discounted homes at once, might overwhelm the buying and investing side.

It's true that markets do tend to over do it in both directions. But real estate is unique. Real Estate is highly highly leveraged and it is illiquid. And real estate has utility as housing giving it intrinsic value tied to the rent that can be obtained for it.

There is A LOT OF CASH OUT THERE, and it's not all in the hands of banks that are sitting on it. Much of it is in the hands of rich individuals and funds, looking for somewhere safe to invest it. They can put a certain amount in bonds so that they will clean up BIG TIME under MCMsingers deflationary scenario. But then they need to offset those investments partly with equities and also with real assets such as gold or real estate.

Those investors are the support under the real estate market.

But the inflation/ deflation question is interesting. We have deflation in housing, and maybe in certain imported items, and close to deflation in salaries. But inflation in most everything else.

(using a simple price definition for inflation and deflation)

marcus says

We need a new category for nominating entire threads.
Just in case, I think I will set aside 50K, you know, so that in the event that MCMsingers “reasoning” is correct, I can buy a million dollar (today’s prices) house with cash. Or maybe if they still do financing then I will buy 5 million dollar houses and rent 4 of them out.

Anything I said shouldn't be taken as professional financial advice.

But I will say to be careful at which bank you keep your money. Ideally a Swiss Bank which is solid - would be good. Maybe even convert some of the money into Swiss Francs. Switzerland is never in much financial trouble whenever their is a global crisis.

If you also feel a little uneasy with fiat currency - consider some investing in silver - it is being undervalued for a long time. Avoid gold, it's being over valued. Don't invest in metals by paper. Have the metal on reserve at your OWN safe. Also consider the possibility that the Federal Reserve may enact siezures of these metals as they did in 1933 with gold along with 10 year prison penalties for failing to hand it over. They contracted the money supply & created deflation which was a big fuel of the depression, though not they only fuel as a
the stock market manipulation was also a big part.

Maybe the international bankers could care less about profiting from this type of crash & deflation in order trigger defaults so they can take over everybody's property. Maybe they are more concerned with crashing the dollar to get more closer to the possibility of a one world government. I don't know but I will say that they are very greedy for power and they achieve power over stock market manipulation along with manipulating the currency's value which causes defaults from the easy loans they offer during the bogus phase of prosperity. History tends to repeat itself although I do acknowledge the possibility that they might want to profit by crashing the dollar & over throwing the US government.

But they have kept the dollar as the world currency for quite sometime & display a interest in keeping it that way.

Consider protecting yourself in both ways if you feel both sides of predictions have their merits. You want to always put yourself in a position where you will win most likely regardless of what happens.

marcus says

Real Estate is highly highly leveraged and it is illiquid. And real estate has utility as housing giving it intrinsic value tied to the rent that can be obtained for it.

real estate by definition is also immobile.

Location location location.

90% depreciation in Las Vegas doesn't mean shit to LA since there is 3 hours of nothing between Victorville and Blue Diamond Rd. Until gas is free and/or the speed limit is 300mph Las Vegas might as well be on the moon.

We have deflation in housing, and maybe in certain imported items, and close to deflation in salaries. But inflation in most everything else.

I'd like to think that my thesis that housing will go down as imported stuff goes up is solid. We'll see. We're kinda in terra incognito wrt the economics of our situation. Japan has had a massive budget deficit but a trade surplus. We've got twin deficits, and I'm not smart enough to see 5+ years down the road. Don't think anyone is, actually.

@marcus

I agree. What you say has a lot of truth. I'm not saying real estate is worthless - I'm just saying it has been over valued. The upside of real estate is that if's tangible & can generate revenue. The downside is maintenance & being illiquid. It has it's merits but also it's flaws.

MCMSinger says

Anything I said shouldn’t be taken as professional financial advice.

Not to worry, I was kidding. Some of what you say is pretty reasonable. But you have a strong tendency towards extremes, and toward conspiracy paranoia.

What if that stage of fake prosperity (circa ~1987 - ~2007) happened quite naturally? Because of greed, not just greed but greed for easy money, the entitlement of the elite, deregulation, growth of the finance industry in place of manufacturing, imbalances in international finance, and many small but significant forces of corruption in our government ?

Why does it need to be some plan for world government, or to steal assets from the middle class (not that trends towards those things happening don't exist.) Sometimes when the rich are busy getting richer, the middle class getting fucked over is just an unintended consequence, rather than something they plotted all along via trilateral commission or free masons, or the the federal reserve via Bohemian grove or whatever your favorite conspiracy theory is.

This kind of stuff is just insane:

MCMSinger says

The women’s right movement was funded by The Rockefellers to be able to tax half of the population & to have kids in school at an earlier age so they can indoctrinate them how to think. Feminism was a CIA operation to destabilize society between the genders & break up the family. Please research the REAL agenda behind movements before proclaiming how positive their effects have been.

IT destroys any credibility you might have for your more reasonable assertions. Likewise your criticism of fiat currency and banking way too extreme for me. But you will find that many around here see the problems, although frame them quite differently, and acknowledge that some of us or maybe all of us are going to pay the piper somehow.

I think the government is trying to figure out how to do it very slowly, and to prevent it from hitting the rich.

I think the original post brings up some decent points, but it gets overshadowed by the excessive drop prediction. A 300k house dropping 95% would turn into a 15k house. A 19 y/o kid working at Taco Bell could afford to buy that. That's not an insult to someone working at Taco Bell, but it means an incredible amount of people would be able to afford to buy...aka increased demand. What happens when you increase demand? Prices go up. Prices would never get that low to begin with, because once they hit a level that becomes attractive, people will start buying and the prices stop falling and turn in the other direction.

The only way prices can drop 95% is if we have a massive population outflux and wage decline of around 70-80% (wages don't need to drop AS much since the housing market is currently overvalued). That's what deflation is, but I see in your later posts you argue that wages won't fall. That just doesn't make sense. If I made the same salary I do now, and there were 15k houses on the market...i'd own 5 of them, with no mortgage.

To use your own point against you - math doesn't lie, only opinions do. Historically house prices follow incomes, and there is a simple economic principle behind that. Everyone needs a place to live, so it's always going to be a decent chunk of your overall expenses. Like I said, if there was a 15k house on the market and I still had the same income, I could pay for the house in cash, still have plenty of savings, and then probably retire in 5 years because my expenses would be so insanely low. I don't make enough money to be able to retire at 35. I would then be contributing nothing to society. That scenario is just as much a fantasy as the people who were hoping to live off their house appreciating indefinitely. There is just no logic behind it.

RealisticOptimist says

The only way prices can drop 95% is if we have a massive population outflux and wage decline of around 70-80%

or gasoline that costs $100/gallon, middle-class tax rate at 50%, subsistence food at $1000/month.

Not much left over for the rent/mortgage in that world, and that's not a future that is that improbable.

Historically house prices follow incomes, and there is a simple economic principle behind that. Everyone needs a place to live, so it’s always going to be a decent chunk of your overall expenses.

This is true as far as it goes, but existing housing has a very low cost of production. The money we pay on rent and mortgages is simply set via an informal bid system, with the rent set at what somebody else is able and willing to pay + some delta.

There is just no logic behind it.

The logic, as I see it, is the middle class being taken out into the fields and shot.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jul/03/business/la-fi-hiltzik-20110703

Wage collapse, sky-high energy prices, no deus-ex-machina technology to save us, dollar collapsing, we could see immense reversals.

Granted, the PTB does not want to see this happen, but the current system is running pretty deranged at the moment. I have no idea what's going to happen this decade.

Troy says

The only way prices can drop 95% is if we have a massive population outflux and wage decline of around 70-80%

or gasoline that costs $100/gallon, middle-class tax rate at 50%, subsistence food at $1000/month.

Valid points there. Yeah, if the cost of everything else continues to go up, then yes, there is only so much money to go around. I hope Im not around when that happens, because our country will be in very bad shape if it does.

Troy says

Granted, the PTB does not want to see this happen, but the current system is running pretty deranged at the moment. I have no idea what’s going to happen this decade.

Also true - our system is a bit messed up right now. I don't think it will get THAT bad, but like you said, who knows what's going to happen.

Im pretty cynical, but I'm a little more optimistic about the future. There are definitely some massive changes up ahead, but I think we'll slowly adapt to them and come out ok. This decade will definitely be interesting.

Wow. This much discussion about a Robert Pretcher prediction?

Last time I checked, Pretcher was still a permabear, and had a fairly poor record as a forecaster.

What about Ronald McDonald?

What does he forecast?

@Troy

>I’d like to think that my thesis that housing will go down as imported stuff goes up is solid. We’ll see. We’re kinda in terra incognito wrt the economics of our situation. Japan has had a massive budget deficit but a trade surplus. We’ve got twin deficits, and I’m not smart enough to see 5+ years down the road. Don’t think anyone is, actually.

I agree here (usully do with most stuff you write anyay). A bit busy now so I can't check so often.

@nomograph.
I have used Clambo because I dug a lot of clams and I liked them.
I have never even heard "Clambo" spoken anywhere in my life, I have no idea what some urban dictionary has to say about the name.
Maybe I'll be Clamboslice instead. These are meaningless pseudonmyms, anyone who is trying to make a statement with his pseudonym is over-doing it in my view.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/florida/fl-no-propertytaxes-20110701,0,5803073,print.story?source=patrick.net

"When Michelais Josemond bought his two-bedroom condo in Tamarac four years ago, he paid $185,000 and had a property tax bill of about $2,500.

Today, his apartment is worth $18,000 and his tax bill is zero.

He is among the more than 18,800 homeowners in Broward County and 16,700 in Palm Beach County--living in houses, condos or coops--who are not required to pay property taxes because the value of their units is less than their $25,000 homestead exemption."

There you go. Unbelievable fall in value. We shall see what the nationwide vs local market outcomes will be over the coming decade.

Dire scenarios where homes drop 90-95% and food/gasoline costs rise 1000% would affect everyone on this board fairly equally.. those that are renting now and sitting on a nest egg would be forced to spend their life savings on food and gasoline...

Those with mortgages would like dominos stop paying fairly rapidly... In fact, it would make sense to rush out and get a huge home equity loan right now if the above scenario were destined to occur even if you owned your home outright. Because if all homes lost 90-95% of their value our entire banking system would collapse and even if you had $500K in the bank in cash your ATM card wouldn't let you withdraw it.

So stop pretending any of the above scenarios would be good for anyone on this earth... only the top 1% would find a way to survive and profit... The frugal savers would unfairly suffer along with the home debtors...

Los Angeles Renter says

Dire scenarios where homes drop 90-95% and food/gasoline costs rise 1000% would affect everyone on this board fairly equally.. those that are renting now and sitting on a nest egg would be forced to spend their life savings on food and gasoline...
Those with mortgages would like dominos stop paying fairly rapidly... In fact, it would make sense to rush out and get a huge home equity loan right now if the above scenario were destined to occur even if you owned your home outright. Because if all homes lost 90-95% of their value our entire banking system would collapse and even if you had $500K in the bank in cash your ATM card wouldn't let you withdraw it.
So stop pretending any of the above scenarios would be good for anyone on this earth... only the top 1% would find a way to survive and profit... The frugal savers would unfairly suffer along with the home debtors...

I agree with you mate. I don't think I ever said that deflation would be better - I just said that their is more risk of deflation & it seems to be
in the best interest of the few .01% to collapse the system in this manner.

I believe I clearly said that deflation will hurt the majority of people not inflation. Deflation as I said before will be more destructive than inflation because with inflation you can start all over again - this time more wisely but with deflation you have to go through a complete collapse of the entire financial system until you can move on to growth.

And I think you are quite smart with pointing out how banks will collapse all over - it's exactly what happened in the great depression albeit not all banks collapsed - The ones that remained were under the control of the royal elites & those banks took over the assets of the collapsed banks for pennies.

That's what they do; They first bankrupt a business or stock that they want to buy before actually buying it. That's how they buy artifiicially low which results in a profit once the manipulation wears off.

And yes, savers are going to lose all their money. FDIC is not going to do anything.

And also yes, Be very carefull what bank your money is in.

"Banks lending money that they don't even have in their reserves is not rational."
True but fractional reserve banking is what we generally have.

As much as I might think the housing market will go down saying 90-95% off of peak is just too much. Even if we examine the worst hit markets (Phoenix and Vegas..throw in Detroit for the heck of it) nothing is even close to that.

Unless there is something major like a nuclear accident or a volcano I doubt such amounts are possible. I'm not even sure if any areas in the country has that amount even on a historical basis..maybe Love Canal but I don't know if stats of that area were even kept after the 80's...

The only incident I can recall where prices had a sharp drop on a somewhat expensive item is this
I have an old Egyptian colleague that was there when Israel gave back the Sinai. When the settlers left..they outright left. Very little attempted to be salvaged to take with them and much was sold off for pennies on the dollar (this was not the case with Gaza decades later.infact it was the opposite) He told me you could buy a Benz for $50..that's how eager they were to get rid of things. Even factoring in inflation that's still dirt cheap.

Although I don't think it will help it drop to 90% from peak it will be interesting to see what happens if/when a bank (not saying all) starts unloading the shadow inventory.

I love it

Patrick, you know perl right ? I used to know a little. Pretty powerful for dealing with so called regular expressions. But then this task sounds like a pain, probably.

Sad that there are such aholes around here. Kind of confirms what I say about how republicans are often poor sports. THey don't play fair, for obvious reasons.

That's okay, I just added 2 new members to my ignore list. If you can delete them totally (anyone from their IP address ?), I would.

marcus says

Sad that there are such aholes around here

Personal attack.

marcus says

Kind of confirms what I say about how republicans are often poor sports. THey don't play fair, for obvious reasons.

I'm a republican. This country was built upon a republic which is a open and free society. A republic means everybody gets to rule fairly. A democracy means 49% control 51%. Worst form of government.

But now both political parties are about the same thing for the most part but understand a democracy is against the very foundation of what this country was built on.

marcus says

If you can delete them totally (anyone from their IP address ?), I would.

Giving orders, eh?

What's the url for this video?

marcus says

Fine, delete my comment, or me, or better still this entire thread, but I'm not the one showing disrespect for this forum.

I bet you want this entire thread deleted because you would hate to see the housing market crash more.

Nothing wrong with that but it's not nice to demand censorship and act like a tyrant as if you own this forum.

And dude relax. It's pointless to get emotional over disagreements on the internet.

marcus says

your behavior is the behavior of a scumbag

Personal Attack.

It is fairly lame to take on somebody else name and picture...

^ Nice to know.

Troy says

90% depreciation in Las Vegas doesn't mean shit to LA since there is 3 hours of nothing between Victorville and Blue Diamond Rd. Until gas is free and/or the speed limit is 300mph Las Vegas might as well be on the moon.

Well, it looks like the property bust in Las Vegas is already spreading to Dubai, nearly 12,000mi away. It must be due to all the Vegas casino chips that are making their way to Dubai, these days:

http://arabnews.com/economy/article467308.ece?source=patrick.net#mainContent

It look like we have our forums version of a bizzaro
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bizarro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6ROXLtorwY

Let me know if that user changes it back.

I'll change it back to MCMSinger if you disapprove that much.

Take things easy, it's just harmless pranks. Be laid back... I'm willing to follow the rules & show respect to moderators.

That is the day my grandson will buy couple houses on his birthday's gifts..then housing will bubble again..fun

Sir John Templeton opined exacly the same (regarding housing dropping to ten cents on the dollar during the coming bust), and he made that statement in an interview in 2003! He also, however, made the claim that gold was overvalued at the time so it's obvious that he's not omniscient. Still, with a name like his I believe his ideas deserve attention. What would happen is that all lending in the RE sector would completely cease and that combined with Great Depression (the GreatEST Depression?) dynamics, you'd end up being able to buy property for 10% of the peak price IF YOU WERE LUCKY ENOUGH TO STILL HAVE MONEY.

Sir John Templeton WAS a big fan of beach-front RE, however, and he said that he thought that it was a good investment, so it's not like he openly said RE would crater 90% everywhere. I don't think 90% in some areas is insane at all - as other posters have already demonstrated, look at Vegas, Florida, the list is endless. Here in the exurbs of Minneapolis we've seen 50% drops as well in areas. Ireland is now down 40%, EVEN THE SACRED COW HEAVEN-ON-EARTH Australia is now going down, down, down.

The bust is on, and there is ZERO indication it's over.

"Back in the old days... Minium wage workers bought their own homes within 2 years either with full cash payment or with just a very small loan with a large cash downpayment."

Since you've mentioned this twice now (granted in different threads) can you provide an actual place and time where this was true?

If I bring up the national minimum wage vs median house price you would probably counter that the states have different rates and that all markets are local.

Trying to suggest that economic times are worse now than the 60's ignores quite a bit about the 1960's

1) We don't have a draft now. How good can a economy be if you are 18...can't even vote and yet are pulled off to fight anywhere in the planet?

2) It's much easier to move around now. If you have a cell phone and email address you can move nearly anywhere in the country and still stay connected. In the 60's if you were homeless for any reason that totally cut you out of all communications. Yes I have seen people that are homeless use cell phones..heck I've seen 8 year olds on bikes talking on them too.

3) The labor market was smaller in the 60's due to a lack of civil rights and womens rights and one might also add gay rights to it. So better for whom? What were the chances that a women would go to college in the 60's compared to today? If a women is older, single and with no children that would be looked the same today as then? Not a chance. If you were to tell any African American that times were better in the 60's you'd get a tongue lashing!

It is extremely easy to suggest that times were better back then but it was a bubble based on baby boomers. 75 million people of the same ages at the same times nearly assured that given products would boom. Baby food in the 50's, cars in the mid 60s, higher ed late 60's early 70s, housing in the 80s.

Minimum wage workers are a minority within the country and the evidence I illustrated clearly indicates that with age the percentage drops. More importantly why would someone making such a wage want to buy a house given that they are on the bottom so to speak? Otherwise that means that with promotions and raises that the person would have to sell the house to move on and this is harder due to all of the maintenance. It would make more sense to rent rather than to own.

As for higher education...again...
Let me put it in a simple way.

You don't have the money to start up a business so you look for a job.
Employer wants X on your resume
You do not have X
What's your recourse?

You can ramble all you want about how you believe it is a joke. But if it is a joke then why do employers ask for it? Do you want a job or not?

Sometimes I witness the same arguments being said about the job market and usually the breakdown is against higher end and for more equity but it doesn't totally make sense.

They want something
1) Easy to get
2) That employs large numbers of people - to lower unemployment and act as security
3) That has good pay and benefits

If a employer has a large number of people in a given profession then it means the individual demand is low and thus is hard to have good pay and benefits. If you are a factory working making widgets and the output on each person is the same then this holds true. The opposite might be Alaska where it is largely single men that work in the oil industry. It certainly is not an easy job and being up north is not one that a person can easily go to. The more training and experience required for a given profession the less people are able to do it (and the higher the pay, bennies etc)

I get the impression you make minimum wage (which is fine man it's a job and the only way to go is up) and don't have a degree (don't feel bad, plenty don't). Eventually the whole jealousy thing ends. Life isn't high school.

mdovell says

I get the impression you make minimum wage (which is fine man it's a job and the only way to go is up) and don't have a degree (don't feel bad, plenty don't). Eventually the whole jealousy thing ends. Life isn't high school.

I own my own business and do just fine. If anything I bet you fear making minimum wage; insults usually reveals a person's psyche.

Jealousy? lol I went to college bud... and graduated with an MBA. And I learned far far more valuable life skills outside the classroom. You are right - life isn't high school but neither is college mate.

Sheep always falsely think others should be jealous of them. Usually these types of people I have found to be the most jealous of others. Ironic, right?

Concluding point: Why are you so argumentative over such trivial things which are not even about the main point of this thread? But more importantly - why are you giving a double shot at one of my quotes a second time?

And by the way I already discussed and debunked everything you just wrote. Looks like you're just arguing because it's what you like to do. I'm not going to bother because I already did before upon your request.

But If you want to believe in your philosophy, that's fine with me. They only problem I have is with mindless babble about who's perspective is superior.

Why don't we both just accept that we have different perspectives based upon our different experience in this world which formed our beliefs? Unless of course - you dislike the main point of this thread in which case you resort to arguing too much off topic.

-Bye

Real estate values will drop 90-95% from their highest peak? It is already happening in parts of Detroit, where people can buy certain properties for less than $1,000.

Do you think all American cities will resemble Detroit then?

It is possible that many American cities will resemble Detroit due to lack of diversified local economies, long-term structural unemployment, and loss of certain jobs that will never return.

MCMSinger says

to pay off $140-160 trillion...

Where did this number come from? Please provide the source. Is this the notional principal of derivative contracts? I have heard doomsday people quote this figure before, but it doesn't make sense because the mark to market payments are the exposure, some contracts are offsetting, and derivatives are a zero sum game so there are winners and losers.

schmitz_kris says

Sir John Templeton opined exacly the same (regarding housing dropping to ten cents on the dollar during the coming bust), and he made that statement in an interview in 2003! He also, however, made the claim that gold was overvalued at the time so it's obvious that he's not omniscient. Still, with a name like his I believe his ideas deserve attention. What would happen is that all lending in the RE sector would completely cease and that combined with Great Depression (the GreatEST Depression?) dynamics, you'd end up being able to buy property for 10% of the peak price IF YOU WERE LUCKY ENOUGH TO STILL HAVE MONEY.

Interesting but even more interesting how nobody ever takes predictions with a good possibility of happening seriously but always take the predictions with very little possibility or none - very seriously and passionately.

And usually but not always the majority of failed predictions come from either shills, incompetence or people who can't open their mind to other possibilities.

And I checked out his credentials and they are very impressive. He has had a very high prediction accuracy.

His main advice: Be very picky on the location & try to buy as close to 1/10 of the peak "value" (fake value).

I've learned that he predicted financial chaos worldwide very early during the bubble years. Market analysts like him are extremely rare after I checked his credentials and his accuracy...

And by the way - even though gold went up since 2003 when said it was overvalued - doesn't mean he is wrong... It just might mean that the gold bubble went on longer and will crash in the future someday. I also have believed gold to be overvalued. I believe silver is a much safer bet.

Don't mean to toot my own horn but it's interesting to see how closely my predictions and beliefs match up with a billionaire with a impressive track record. And by the way - I never heard of him before. I came up with these predictions based upon my own analysis of everything related to finance and economics.

I also think the herd is very quick to demonize others for being negative if they predict a crash when actually that's positive... Because if you know whether something is going to go a certain direction or has a great possibility - you can plan ahead to make the event turn out to be in your benefit. So no luck is involved, you can create your own fate.

But most people don't think this way.

If you see a lot of people going one way - go they opposite way. You will be right most of the time because the herd usually gets slaughtered.

PRIME says

to pay off $140-160 trillion...

Where did this number come from? Please provide the source.

http://www.mckinsey.com/mgi/publications/gcmannualreport.asp

http://www.mckinsey.com/mgi/reports/pdfs/GCMAnnualReport/Mapping_the_Global_Capital_Market_2006_Update.pdf

Note: This figure is often quoted as asset value but the value is artificially propped up because it's propped up value equals a debt. They are actually toxic debt assets.

bgamall4 says

And people, there is going to be another bubble.

If that happens - dollar will defiantly lose a lot of value.

MCMSinger says

Homes are usually 5-6 times average income today. Basically double.

huh? Maybe during the bubble. Not usually.

You have been proven to be completely and utterly wrong. Own it.

Per CS we just hit brand new lows, and we are DOWN 4% Y-O-Y across the country.

Down 4% is NOT flat, it's DOWN.

My area, Minneapolis, is down double digits Y-O-Y (-10.something+%).

Would that be considered flat, semi-flat, basically flat, roughly flat, flat but on a somewhat downward slope but with a hint of flatness...

What exactly kind of "flat" would that be?

@tatupu

Neighborhood in Roslyn, NY

Median family income (in 2009 inflation-adjusted dollars)
67,040

Median value (dollars)
300,600

Clearly 5-6 times year income. This data is from the government census. And don't come back with a smart-aleck rebuttal; Government statistics are not accurate.

I can show you countless examples with median asking prices on homes that are currently on the market.

PersainCAT says

even assuming zero taxes and buying a cheap house it seems unresolvable that someone on minimum wage could save 40% of their income a year to come up with $480 for a home.

Only to people of this "modern" era. People weren't raised up on learning to save in todays society.

But I think it's interesting that people are simply attacking an insignificant detail of the main subject of this thread - instead of discussing their perspectives on the MAIN subject... Fractional Reserve banking collapsing home prices.