patrick.net

corntrollio says

How exactly is the White House "gate-keeping" "craziness and handouts"? Isn't it Congress that makes appropriations? What craziness and handouts are you talking about? Please be specific. This sounds like it could be an interesting point if you could support it with facts and good arguments.

It's an "American" thing, a Liberal wouldn't understand.

Tenouncetrout says

It's an "American" thing, a Liberal wouldn't understand.

An American should be able to explain something that is American. Does being American apparently means being unable to make a substantive argument and just talking out of your ass?

Ron Paul will never be elected for two reasons:

1. Democrats won't vote for him because he's anti government programs (we're talking basic things like highways and public education)

2. Republicans won't vote for him because he wants to cut the military down to a sensible size.

True Story: I first met little Ronny Paul a bit after he graduated secondary school. He was a foot messenger for the administrative office of my railroad. Anyways, he was fast. I mean super humanly fast. His little legs were a blur and he challenged everyone he met to a foot race.

I asked him one day after fetching me some fresh pastries, what is your secret? He said he uncovered a secret Injun technique that transformed his legs into those of a beast when running. He would dip an eagle feather in warm buffalo shit, and keep it in his pocket. A piece of turtle shell went under his tongue and cactus needles were inserted into his foreskin.

They don't make messengers like little Ronny Paul anymore.

Kevin says

2. Republicans won't vote for him because he wants to cut the military down to a sensible size.

Yes I always wonder if this is the real problem.

I myself have to say as much as I dislike our adventurism, there's a certain appeal to having the word "superpower" attached to your country. I suspect a lot of people who would be happy to bring the army home, would still want all the fancy doodads and people standing around "just in case". If you seriously proposed cutting say 70% and reduce to a size that would be UNABLE during peacetime to just pop over and defend Kuwait or whatever there would be a LOT of opposition.

Vicente says

I myself have to say as much as I dislike our adventurism, there's a certain appeal to having the word "superpower" attached to your country. I suspect a lot of people who would be happy to bring the army home, would still want all the fancy doodads and people standing around "just in case".

I get that, but part of the issue is that our military spending, while plentiful, is sometimes stupid. It took way too long for DoD to snap out of its Cold War mentality, for example, and to realize that it had different enemies to fight. Part of this is the military-industrial complex lobbyists and the revolving door between government and the private sector -- way too many fat cats.

Some items the military buys are expensive because they meet exacting specifications and have different functions than the equivalent civilian item, but other things never made economic sense and were just a handout to a particular district, state, or government contractor.

Oddly, a lot of people say Donald Rumsfeld was the best candidate to get our military out of Cold War mode until we started two wars. He was already working to cancel some of the Cold War-era/pork barrel projects that didn't make sense any more in favor of projects that did, but the two wars got in the way of real reforms. Here is a report dated September 10, 2001: http://www.discussanything.coms/archive/index.php/t-609.html

Even in 2005, he was still working on this, although he became bogged down:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9806E2D81330F932A25756C0A9639C8B63&pagewanted=all

BRAC, which largely was a phenomenon of the 90s made a lot of sense too -- we had a lot of obsolete bases that only made sense if we were still fighting World War II. These were converted to better uses.

That can be solved by just billing people for the military.

$500/mo is the cost per household.

I'd love to get a monthly itemized bill (in plain english) from the federal and state government, showing exactly how my money was spent, in exchange for filing my annual taxes.

Electronically, of course, generated automatically by a highly efficient robot overlord/accounting computer to keep down the paperwork-associated bureaucracy.

terriDeaner says

I'd love to get a monthly itemized bill (in plain english) from the federal and state government, showing exactly how my money was spent, in exchange for filing my annual taxes.

Sure, here you go:

http://www.thirdway.org/taxreceipt

Troy says

RP's theories are great if you like the economy of 1890.

$300B economy -- in 2010 dollars.

$5000 per capita. Sign me up!

“Nessuna soluzione . . . nessun problema!„

These numbers are supposed to mean anything? 1890's technology level was much lower than today's.

The average income in the US grew much faster in the 19th century than in the 20th century.

corntrollio says

Sure, here you go:

http://www.thirdway.org/taxreceipt

Fun! How about one for California?

The "Liberal media" who allegedly hate Ron Paul and mastermind his being ignored.... does that include Jon Stewart?

Fox News: We have a top tier now of Bachmann, Perry, and Romney.

Oh wait, who did we forget, was it Rick Santorum? No....

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/jon-stewart-scolds-media-for-ignoring-rep-ron-paul-i-mean-fck-that-guy-right/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9Ufecd4Bjs&feature=player_embedded

Rand Paul was on Hannity right after election.

It's a straw poll. Relax.

It is a crazy phenomenon with Ron Paul. He gets no attention from the main stream media. They have absolutley black listed the guy. I went to click on a fox news poll on their website and I selected Ron Paul as winning the GOP debate. The results had Paul at 7000 or something similar and the next person was at 3500. A couple of hours later I went to check and the survey was gone.

Reality says

The average income in the US grew much faster in the 19th century than in the 20th century.

This is true. The underclass went from not having a pot to piss in to having only a pot to piss in. 100% increase in piss pots.

I raised the average income significantly with my monopoly ownership of all piss pot makers. Damn that fool Harrison and his cursed antitrust nonsense.

Vicente says

The "Liberal media" who allegedly hate Ron Paul and mastermind his being ignored.... does that include Jon Stewart?

Fox News: We have a top tier now of Bachmann, Perry, and Romney.

Oh wait, who did we forget, was it Rick Santorum? No....

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/jon-stewart-scolds-media-for-ignoring-rep-ron-paul-i-mean-fck-that-guy-right/

Ah, the media. Ron Paul's views on the US empire and subsidies doesn't sit well with special interest groups, and despite his low-tax leanings, is too dangerous to the establishment

It's not just Ron Paul, but any sort of reasonable ideas that defy the TWO puritan parties backed by special interests and who have a lot more in common than anybody would care to admit. Their only real differences are philosophical wedge issues like abortion.

thunderlips11 says

but any sort of reasonable ideas that defy the TWO puritan parties backed by special interests and who have a lot more in common than anybody would care to admit.

That is the platform of my anti Liberal rants.

thunderlips11 says

It's not just Ron Paul, but any sort of reasonable ideas that defy the TWO puritan parties backed by special interests and who have a lot more in common than anybody would care to admit. Their only real differences are philosophical wedge issues like abortion.

Bingo.

thunderlips11 says

It's not just Ron Paul, but any sort of reasonable ideas that defy the TWO puritan parties backed by special interests and who have a lot more in common than anybody would care to admit. Their only real differences are philosophical wedge issues like abortion.

This is exactly right. The establishment is bought and paid for, and this is why all third party candidates are marginalized and ignored too. Republicrats are all owned by banks and special interests and billionaires. It's like "Pro Wrestling". The outcome has already been determined, the rest is just for show. Primarily to make everyday Americans feel like they have a choice and their vote matters. It doesn't, and they don't.

It's like the simpsons episode where Homer and Margie vote for 2 different aliens (from another planet), while it's clear that human race is going to be put into slavery regardless of which one is elected.

For those paying attention, the extreme lack of respect Ron Paul gets from the media, helps those of us paying attention to realize just how true that is.

The question is which comes first ?

1) A strong meaningful protest by the people, leading to change ?

or

2) We continue to evolve in to a fascist state

We are kept divided (by the pro-wrestling like farce), making the unity we would need for #1 difficult to achieve

FortWayne says

It's like the simpsons episode where Homer and Margie vote for 2 different aliens (from another planet), while it's clear that human race is going to be put into slavery regardless of which one is elected.

"It does not matter which way you vote. Either way your planet is doomed. Doomed. Doomed."

marcus says

The question is which comes first ?

1) A strong meaningful protest by the people, leading to change ?

or

2) We continue to evolve in to a fascist state

We are kept divided (by the pro-wrestling like farce), making the unity we would need for #1 difficult to achieve

"We must move forward... not backwards, not to the side, not forwards, but always whirling, whirling, whirling towards freedom!!!"

The difference between me and Ron's fanatics, is I view his plight as a SYMPTOM of some problems in our political system. I do not believe for a second that if we elected Ron Paul President that we'd all be "saved". No, we'd just have an interlude of a crackpot outsider fanatic running things. Some things he'd do would be sensible, a lot of them would just be upsetting the applecart because it feels good to his followers to sow chaos. After his term(s) we'd be back to same-old same-old. Do you seriously see Ron Paul as the guy who will succeed at convincing Congress, courts, and people we must remove "personhood" from corporations, reduce lobbying influence, and take a machete to the financial sector? I don't.

Vicente says

I do not believe for a second that if we elected Ron Paul President that we'd all be "saved".

I don't think so either. I do, however, think that RP is the singularly different choice among all of the legitimate/electable Repub and Dem options. And he represents the only really different way forward post-2012.

Sure, liberals often claim to want mega-spending, and conservatives often claim to want mega-cuts but neither is going to happen. Our current environment of high unemployment and inflated asset prices (with periodic QE injections to keep things buoyed) works way to well for wealth extraction by our corporate overlords... so they will work hard to keep things that way by making sure an establishment candidate gets (re)installed in 2012. Maybe a little more bread, or maybe a little more circus, but status quo nevertheless

But I don't think our current state is a stable one that can be maintained indefinitely. As the status quo ensures that we make our slow grind back towards the 1880s, more people will get fed up with government incompetence and just plain being poor. Sure, today's soma takes the edge off of the anger, but that won't last forever. At some point things will have to change...

So again, can RP solve our problems? Probably not. Best (Worst?) case, he will weaken the corporatocrasy's stranglehold on policy enough that things will *start* to change for the better for the middle class. Worst (Best?) case, he'll pull off the e-brake and stomp on the gas and get us where we're already headed much sooner rather than later.

Anyone who believes we have to wait for change from Washington in order to save our country is in for a long wait. Whether it's Paul or someone else, change needs to come from the people.

As to the "Chaos" our current Central Government is holding us back from by not upsetting the cart, I give you the financial meltdowns of the 1920's, 1970's, 1980's, 1990's, and 2008, the lost purchasing power of our fiat currency, the endless wars on foreign soil, all thanks to central planning.

I support Ron Paul, but I will look through all the candidates from all parties before making my choice for the one who best represents me, as we all should... Your vote only counts if you cast it for the person you believe best represents you.

thunderlips11 says

It's not just Ron Paul, but any sort of reasonable ideas that defy the TWO puritan parties backed by special interests and who have a lot more in common than anybody would care to admit. Their only real differences are philosophical wedge issues like abortion.

People are rather naive if they think that the two parties are really that similar. This is just a propaganda tactic by someone trying to fool you. You can empirically show this to be wrong:

http://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2008

If your argument is that we don't have enough candidates in the other three quadrants, that's fair, but that hasn't been your argument. Ron Paul isn't outside the top right quadrant, for one thing.

That doesn't independently mean there isn't a need for a solid third party, but saying the two parties are the same will remain a crappy argument.

corntrollio says

People are rather naive if they think that the two parties are really that similar. This is just a propaganda tactic by someone trying to fool you. You can empirically show this to be wrong:

http://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2008

Those charts are pretty, and I applaud their attempt to actually quantify political similarities/differences among different politicians.

However, they are unsubstantiated, and seemingly based only on the authors' opinion(s). What do the units of the axes represent? How is the degree of left/right or libertarian/authoritarian actually quantified?

And finally, is their range really representative of the actual scale of all political beliefs/actions?

This seems to be their only explanation for ranking people who didn't take their test (basically everyone important):

http://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2

Nothing but a descriptive analysis. Did I miss something?

corntrollio says

People are rather naive if they think that the two parties are really that similar. This is just a propaganda tactic by someone trying to fool you. You can empirically show this to be wrong:

That's OK you still get to wear the hat.

terriDeaner says

However, they are unsubstantiated, and seemingly based only on the authors' opinion(s). What do the units of the axes represent? How is the degree of left/right or libertarian/authoritarian actually quantified?

What specific flaws do you see?

Again, I was responding to your assertion, which was simply that the two parties are the same. Are you saying that their metric for determining the two parties are not the same is flawed? If so, how?

The concept is certainly not new, and there are other academics who believe in a multi-axis political spectrum.

People who think ideology will fix the world are really just making circular arguments.

To be clear, I am not saying that the two mainstream parties are identical. I am saying that they are controlled by the same master (the uberwealthy), and that both enact polices that produce the same result (keep them in a comfy job, and make the uberwealthy more wealthy at the expense of the middle class).

Sure there are differences in terms of how much bread they dole out, and what type of circus they put on, but how are they really different? Pretty charts are one thing, and actual history is another.

And I'm not arguing that the multi-axis political spectrum is bogus. It is an interesting and useful model. BUT I AM saying that their metric is flawed because they give no formula for how they calculated it (at least for folks who didn't take their online test). How do figure how any politicians fit on their scale? How reproduceable is their methodology? Why should I, or anyone else, trust their black box formulation?

corntrollio says

People who think ideology will fix the world are really just making circular arguments.

You lost me here... are you accusing me of being an idelogue, of making circular arguments, or both? Please clarify.

Ron Paul is doomed because

1. He is running in the wrong party. He'd be better off as a fiscally conservative Democrat. It's closer to the libertarian ideal also.

2. He touts his beliefs in small gvt and fiscal rights, but doesn't talk about civil and human rights. A lot of Ron Paul supporters like him because of his anti-torture, anti-war, anti-tyranny philosophy. But he only talks economics anymore.

Ron Paul could win if we had instant run-off elections instead of our current Wolf's Dilemma system. Absent that change, he'd stand a better chance as a Democrat since both liberals and conservatives see him as the anti-Bush.

Yes, he would lose some votes in the primary from pro-social spending voters, but there are enough Dem voters who want smaller government to give Paul a better chance than he'll get from Repub voters.

I just don't see redneck voting for someone who is pro-gay rights, for ending marriage as a secular institution, anti-death penalty, pro-narcotic legalization, and anti-military spending.

terriDeaner says

I am saying that they are controlled by the same master (the uberwealthy), and that both enact polices that produce the same result (keep them in a comfy job, and make the uberwealthy more wealthy at the expense of the middle class).

I'm not defending either party. I'm asking, why is Ron Paul different from that? If anything, he is closely identified with Teabaggers, who have been astroturfed by the Kochs and other people that are not known to be particularly poor.

terriDeaner says

As the status quo ensures that we make our slow grind back towards the 1880s

How is today more like the 1880s? Please explain. You like stereotyping ("liberals like this...conservatives like that..."), but you don't really incorporate facts very well. It would be very helpful if you incorporated facts about the 1880s and now that how they are allegedly converging.

terriDeaner says

You lost me here... are you accusing me of being an idelogue, of making circular arguments, or both?

Neither, I was making an independent statement. However, you haven't explained why Ron Paul's ideology would be better. It seems like you are saying you want someone outside the narrow mainstream (i.e. the diagonal line on my "pretty chart"). Would ANYONE that's not on that line be better? Why would Ron Paul be better than, say, Dennis Kucinich who also doesn't really fit within the mainstream? To pull more people from my "pretty chart," why not Mike Gravel? If you really don't like that chart, use Nolan's, I don't mind -- I was just suggesting that the two parties are different, and it's largely naive people who think they are not.

corntrollio says

People are rather naive if they think that the two parties are really that similar.

They are. You can tell by the token financial reforms enacted when the democrats were in power. You can tell by "triangulation", the ongoing DNC strategy of outflanking the republicans on tax cuts and social spending.

The difference between the Republicans and Democrats is the only the speed. The Republicans want to drive 80mph down the straight through the night, the Democrats want to drive at 55mph taking in some of the sights along the way and maybe stopping when they get tired. Both are driving down the same neoliberal highway.

Abortion, Guns, and Gay Rights are more philosophical wedge issues than economic issues.

On foreign policy, the majority of Democrats and Republicans are hyperinterventionist hawks. Obama, Hillary, Biden, Frank, Pelosi, etc. all voted for Iraq, Afghanistan, the Patriot Act, and Libya at various times. None of them want these things to truly end.

Or rather, it's about what both of their biggest mutual contributors want and don't want..

thunderlips11 says

The difference between the Republicans and Democrats is the only the speed.

Right ON!

thunderlips11 says

Abortion, Guns, and Gay Rights are more philosophical wedge issues than economic issues.

Yup.

thunderlips11 says

Abortion, Guns, and Gay Rights are more philosophical wedge issues than economic issues.

They aren't economic issues at all. They are social issues.

I think the parties are quite a bit different and it's pretty easy to see if you look at charts over longer periods of time. The country changed when Reagan took office and Republicans. Clinton was able to reverse the trend, but W. put us on our current path.

If you look at important issues, there is a clear divide:

Campaign finance reform--Dems for, Reps against.
Military spending--Reps for, Dems against (or at least for a reduction. Clinton actually started to address military spending)

Social programs (Dems for, Reps against)

There are clear differences. Saying there isn't ignores history.

tatupu70 says

They aren't economic issues at all. They are social issues.

Exactly. When it comes to bread and butter, the shit that actually matters like the state of my wallet, I have little choice.

Campaign Finance Reform is and was a joke.

No incumbent wants Campaign Finance Reform.

The McCain-Feingold Reform was a complete scam. All it did was encourage more soft money donations to the parties themselves. The influence of special interests is, if anything, stronger.

Similarly, Sarbanes-Oxley was just a means of looking tough on corporate accounting while simply funneling more money into the hands of accountants and auditors. It actually stopped very few abuses, it only required that shady shit had to go through some red tape hoops. Creative Accounting lives on and if anything is more widespread than it was in 2000.

But neither party put a reintroduction of Glass-Steagal up for a vote, for example.

Not in the interests of the banking industry that underwrites both parties, even candidates in areas where the banking industry is minimal (Montana, for example).

As Carlin said, "We have the illusion of choice."

For example, I dislike free trade. What major party can I vote for, that contains a majority of candidates that will roll back the trade policy disasters of this country?

A country of 300M people and there isn't one party that isn't doesn't have moderate trade in it's platform?

Considering that Free Trade was considered a fringe idea prior to the late 60s for ALL of US history?

Sherrod Brown does not the Democratic party make.

Poor, dear, gentle, easily confused tatupu... nice to hear from you again! So then they are social wedge issues. Still...

tatupu70 says

I think the parties are quite a bit different and it's pretty easy to see if you look at charts over longer periods of time.

That's why many of us are more concerned with where the parties stand NOW relative to the future. The past is done.

tatupu70 says

If you look at important issues, there is a clear divide:

Campaign finance reform--Dems for, Reps against.

Obama Opts Out of Public Financing: Promise-Breaker or Reform-Shaker?

http://motherjones.com/mojo/2008/06/obama-opts-out-public-financing-promise-breaker-or-reform-shaker

tatupu70 says

Military spending--Reps for, Dems against (or at least for a reduction. Clinton actually started to address military spending)

Trimming the Defense Budget, Tea Party Style
http://www.theworld.org/2011/08/defense-budget-tea-party/

tatupu70 says

Social programs (Dems for, Reps against)

(This one is a little old, but you get the point...)

George Bush: a good man in Africa
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/15/georgebush.usa

thunderlips11 says

But neither party put a reintroduction of Glass-Steagal up for a vote, for example.

Bingo again.