patrick.net

Housing cost is about 1/4th that of Cupertino.
So many new options may be open.
Do you want a new home? Or want to design your own?
In Russel Creek, lot sizes seem to range from 4K-11K sqft.
Near by areas have homes on a full acre under $400K.
Do you like HOA, gated community, golf, want a horse?
There are more than 50 miles of foot trail in Plano. One trail goes
around Russel Creek Park.
Besides school, are there other activities you want to be near for children (so you don't need to get up at 5am to drive) like before/after school sports or foreign language?

CAtoTX says

But as for the Bay area, the weather alone doesn't pay the bills right? :-)

Everyone is different.

Find out for yourself BY RENTING for at least a whole year. Don't listen to these people about where to buy. Just go there and live there as a renter then make the decision.

Although our move was from LA to Houston 5 Years ago, there are relocation similarities.
On the plus side, as previously mentioned, are the cost of living, the people and no state income tax.
People live here; no one really comes here to vacation. Therefore, at least in Houston, traveling out of either airport is a breeze compared to the frustration getting to an out of LAX. We spend a fair amount of time getting out of town for long weekends. Trips to either coast are 3-3.5 hours flying time. No biggie after schlepping kids on 6 hour flights across the country to bond with family.

Certainly no state income tax is nice after the high cost of CA state tax. We chose to rent unsure of whether we will remain in Texas and it has worked out well for us. The present state of the economy has us anchored here for awhile though.
Don't for one minute downplay the genuine friendliness. As a native NYer, I am prone to ignoring others and minding my own business. I've caught myself a few
times unsure of whether a friendly "Good Morning" was meant for me or
someone behind me. That's something Im working on ; )) You'll come to love the way people extend themselves for you.
Now on the down side, it's not a pretty place. And yea, I realize it's all a matter of opinion but after living in Southern CA for 20 years, seeing the Pacific never gets old. But you make do, hop on a plane and spend that COL adjustment.
The heat is horrible. Energy costs are high. What I paid for my 3000 sq ft home per month is far less than what I pay for my 1800 sq ft apartment. San Fernando valley heat can be unbearable at times but this summer has been a hellhole. There has been no relief in the form of rain either.

For some reason, Texas gets a bad rap. I've, by far, met the most
interesting and diversified group of people from all over the world here in Houston. More so than the other cities I have called home-NY, Boston, Chicago, LA.

Just my 2 cents. Best of luck.

Sybrib says

Everyone is different.

Find out for yourself BY RENTING for at least a whole year. Don't listen to these people about where to buy. Just go there and live there as a renter then make the decision.

This bears repeating. I'm not sure why, but I seem to encounter a lot of people on housing forums who want to move to an area they're totally unfamiliar with and buy a house immediately. That to me is about the worst idea ever for a number of reasons:

A: It took me 2-3 years to get kind of familiar with the Bay Area. If I were to buy here I would have a good idea of where to look and what sort of communities I like. If I moved it would be the same. If you buy immediately you'd have no clue what the area was like and thus you'd be guessing

B: You might very well hate the place. I've lived all over the country- The South, east coast and now west coast. ALL are very different. People that ask questions about what a place is like and then pepper it was questions about whether it has in and out burger, the people that live there etc in my opinion are trying to find a place that's like where they moved from- which isn't going to be the case. Also- I grew up in the South and if you're from somewhere like the Bay Area, the statement about heat is not meant to be an afterthought. It gets HOT. I visited my parents in NC last summer and at 9:00 AM it was already in the 90's and brutal. I'd forgotten about that after living in Cali where its seldom over 70. This sort of weather can make a huge impact on daily life.

Thanks moran and edvard. Appreciate the insight.

We definitely plan to rent for atleast a year before we decide on buying. As you rightly point out, that will give us time to figure out if the area is for us, the kinds of neighborhoods etc.

I've lived in the Dallas area over and over again in my life. From the third grade then moved, while raising children then moved, for a total of about 20 years between 1962 to 2001. I've watched Dallas evolve from a segregated prairie backwater to a sprawling megalith of metroplex.

I'll never go back again anymore.

Dallas (by which I mean everything from DFW on the west to Rockwall on the east) is everything that is right and wrong with America. In Dallas you can find a job and a place to live with ease. It's a good place to make a living but not necessarily a good place to live.

It's a wholly and completely car-centric existence. Public transit exists but isn't a realistic option for daily living. Like LA, Dallas was built for the car.

Places like Plano have zoned themselves into permanent zombie cardom. The ungodly retail corner of Preston Rd. and Plano Pkwy (last I saw it) was not less than 24 lanes--including double left turn only lanes in 4 directions, right turn only lanes, numerous through lanes--so that if one wants to get across the street from one retail corner to the other, it is necessary to drive. From 40 acres of parking over here, to 40 acres of parking over there, across a dozen lanes of traffic.....just to get across the street. In 105 degree heat of baking concrete and traffic fumes, pedestianism is unthinkable. And unheard of.

Plano subdivisions are constructed to maximize cul-de-sacs so that few streets actually go anywhere to connect to another street, and any kind of retail business is zoned miles away from residential development which necessitates a trip in the car for even the tiniest function. Gallon of milk? Get in the car, push the automatic garage door opener, leave neighborhood, drive a couple of miles to nearest retail location, buy milk, reverse procedure.

You gonna drive, drive, drive. Everywhere, all the time, for everything. Everyday. Always.

Plano in particular has been developed with alleyways and rear entry garages. You drive behind the privacy fenced houses in the alley, automatically open your garage door, store the car, go inside house from garage. You can live for years this way without ever seeing your neighbors. In fact in such development, the ONLY way to see the neighbors is to ring their doorbells randomly and hope someone deigns to answer. Good luck with that.

I lived in Plano and ran a UPS route in Plano for 10 years. As far as I'm concerned Plano is second only to Beijing as being Hell On Earth. And that's only because the pollution in Beijing is a horror. Plano is the absolute apex of everything that is wrong with modern American urban development; waste of resources, suburban isolation, misplaced values, personal disconnection--and all of that on a sun baked prairie in a McMansion with two Bradford pear trees in the never used front yard and a boat docked at Lake Lewisville because it's illegal to keep Rv's and boats and travel trailers in your own fricking driveway in Plano.

And if you can't spend $1000 a month on air conditioning so that you can survive the April to October broiling summers, Plano and Dallas may not be be the nirvana you are expecting.

Carry on.

My family is in a very similar situation. We are Asian (Chinese and Filipino). My husband’s job relocated to the Dallas area (Westlake) late last year. We have always lived in the Bay Area, so, we saw this relocation as an opportunity for us to experience living outside of our comfort zone. I grew up in San Jose and prior to the relocation, my husband and I owned a home in the Bay Area. Also, I have family in Cupertino, so, I know your current location well. We decided for my husband to go Texas first while my son finishes the school year.

In May, we took my son out of school one month early and joined my husband in Southlake, Texas where he currently rents a house.

Here’s my two cents.
There isn’t much diversity in Texas (at least in the Southlake area) and from my experience, people seem nice.

Homes are very affordable compared to Bay Area home prices and from what I have researched, schools are great! Kindergarten is all day compared to half day in the Bay Area.

Texas is not very pretty like California. There’s lots of flat land. In the Dallas area, there is no coast nearby for those cool breezes and mountain ranges for winter skiing.

You will not get the variety of produce that you get in the Bay Area, especially vegetables.

There are so many bugs! Big, small and many I have never seen. Bugs don’t normally bother me, but it was ridiculous how many bugs I killed in a day. My husband finally treated the exterior of house with bug spray which reduced the amount of bugs that entered on a daily basis. Wasps were also a huge problem.

Be prepared to pay a high energy bill to run the AC if you want to be comfortable in your home.

The month of May was hot/humid and Tornado season in Tornado Alley! I have never seen the weather get so bad (thunder and lightning storms, tornados and warning sirens blaring). It was the first time I saw lightning strike up close. During the storm that produced tornados, we hid out in our closet with the hopes that the tornado wouldn’t touch down and prayed if it did that it wouldn’t be a monster tornado because we feared our interior closet (no basement) would not be enough protection. I have been through the 1989 California quake and I would rather experience a quake than another tornado producing storm.

My son and I left Texas in June to visit with family back in the Bay Area for the summer and we haven’t returned to Texas yet. I think we were traumatized.

Here’s my tip
It will be tempting to buy a house right away because of the affordability, but rent first and have a backup plan to return to the Bay Area.

We are spoiled here in California!

M2T,
you didn't like tornado season? Try driving to work or school when the roads have iced over.

bubblesburst says

The economy there is always fairly strong as well since so many Fortune 500 companies are based there. I did a lot of business with many of the local Fortune 500 companies and there are also many of the largest accounting and law firms in the country based in Dallas. Anyone with a fairly strong resume/background can find a job there.

Unless CA gets its act together, very quickly, we will continue to see places like Texas being a beacon of economic growth.

A relative of my partner's who lives in that part of the country just posted this afternoon on facebook, she's in the emergency room for a scorpion bite. I guess she has a laptop or iphone or some gadget with her to do the facebooking at the emergency room. Got bit reaching for something or reaching behind something while cleaning the porch.

I'm M2T's husband and living in Southlake (30 mins for Plano w/o traffic - rough guess). Been here since Dec 2010 so can give my 2 cents.

If you are being located to Plano, you don't have to live in Plano (there are many surrounding cities) but I heard Plano is nice with good schools. We drove through Plano and but honestly didn't really see the niceness (I'm sure there are nice parts but we just didn't see it!). I did see a 99 Ranch Market (!!) which I thought was amazing because there are not a lot of Asians in the area. Carrollton, a nearby city (maybe 5-10 miles away??), also has a Super H Market. Super H is a Koren market in a Korean shopping center with different varieties of Asian restaurants including Pho but didn't see a dim sum place. Super H is very nice and BIG, bigger than any 99 Ranch market I've been to and I've been to a lot. If you are looking for dim sum, good luck. There is a place in Richardson which isn't too far away (maybe 10 miles??) and it was very good (can't tell the difference with dim sum in the Bay Area so got to be good). I think there are maybe a handful more at the most in the Dallas vicinity but not sure if this is important to you (I'm Chinese but I won't die if I don't eat dim sum but do crave for it every once in awhile).
Schools and school districts are generally good and some are rated "Exemplary" which is the highest rating by the State of Texas. Not sure what Plano is rated but Southlake has all exemplary schools and is also rated exemplary (there's probably only a handful of school districts with 100% exemplary schools) so I am renting in Southlake (schools for us was paramount). I think Southlake maybe too far from Plano (30 mins??) but Coppell is closer & I believe is also exemplary (or almost - most schools were exemplary). All the cities I'm referencing (Plano, Southlake, Richardson, Carrollton, Coppell, etc) is in the Dallas area called the DFW Metroplex (no idea why it is called that). Fort Worth (the FW in DFW) is west of Dallas but I don't know too much about the city. All the cities I mentioned (expect for fw) is north of Dallas and I guess considered suburds of Dallas.

Things to expect:
1). HOT summers (it will be 107 degrees but easily add another 5-10 degrees because of the humidity). Expect 100 + everyday. At 10 pm it is still 98-100 degrees. Morning temps are in the 80's.
1.5). Did I say HOT . . . you don't need to go to a sauna...just walk outside!
2). Many chain restaurants & stores. Don't expect many mom and pop/boutigue type stores & restaurants.
3). Everything is bigger: lot sizes of home, homes itself, cars (more like big trucks & full size SUV's like Tahoe's, Suburbans, Escalades, etc), people (yes!), bugs (and many!) . . . both ground and the flying type and they make loud sounds
4). High utility bills (TV news yesterday, 8/28, talked about a homeowner in Arlington, by Forth Worth, that had a bill for about $750 in July and $1110 in August), property tax (2.5 - 2.95%). Probably unusual since it made the news but expect $500 - $700 to not be unusual.
5). Tornados (not sure if it happens every year but it happened in May and ran right thru the Dallas Metroplex area). Scored the daylights out of my wife. Keep your car garaged because golf ball size hail dented the hood of my SUV.
6). Really nothing to do. The City of Dallas is probably like San Jose but bigger - remember everything is bigger. Definitely not like SF. In SF Bay Area, you can go to the beach, beach camping at New Brighton State Beach (right south of Santa Cruz and very nice), be a tourist & go do the SF tourist thing, go to Napa for wine tasting if you drink wine (I don't drink or smoke), drive 2.5 - 3 hours and go skiing, go to Monterey, Camel, Yosemite, to anywhere in the Bay Area for dim sum, etc...and these are day trips! In the Dallas Metroplex area, there is really just flat land. I've been to Katy Trail and White Rock Lake but wasn't very impressed. Since it is so hot, you would expect a lot of parks with trees to give shade but I didn't see that.
7). Really not that pretty. A house maybe next to a empty lot, stop lights on wires, no sidewalks to walk on (walk on dirt or grass next to a main/busy road . . . just weird). Imagine walking on dirt on Stevens Creek Blvd in Cupertino or anywhere in the Bay Area.
8). Big malls in the city of Dallas. Don't like malls so didn't go inside.
9). Texans aren't "green" or cycle/conserve (watering lawns midday when it is 105 degrees . . . what's up with that!). Btw - many homes (99.9%) have all grass lawns for their yards - this is one of the 1st things we noticed when we came for a scouting trip last summer.
10). Big lot home = expect spending a whole day mowing (or hire someone). Expect to water your lawn too to keep it green (water bill!)
11). Big home = big utility bill year round (especially summer)
12). Home with pool (many homes have it) = add this as an extra home maintenance cost (don't forget summer heat evaporates the water fast).
13). Bland, bland, bland...what can I say

Some pluses:
1). No state income tax (maybe that's why they have high property tax...2.5 to almost 3%)
2). Cheaper gas. $3.35 per gallon right now.
3). Really good schools (at least in Southlake). Do your research! Teacher to student ratio is excellent. Kindergarden is full day where public schools in CA is half day.
4). People are generally nicer but watch out for the rednecks
5). Honest folks (took my car to a repair shop...they worked on it for a day and couldn't troubleshoot so didn't charge me (don't expect that anywhere no matter where I live)...then I took it to the dealership expecting them to rob me blind but told me it was just a sensor not touching or was disconnected from something and they fixed it...costed me maybe $50 or $75.
6). Some diversity (you're see some Indians and well as other Asian ethnicities because of types of jobs in the area).
7). Spent the winter here and the winter season wasn't as bad as it seems. Yes there was "black ice" but just don't drive stupidly (slowly!) and keep your eyes out for the idiot drivers (most/all cars were very careful...only a small few were driving a little fast on the freeway).

Button line is just don't expect Plano and the other suburd cities (or Dallas) to be like the Bay Area. I've traveled back & forth probably 10 times the past 12 months and it is no comparison. The only thing I really like is the schools where I'm at, and living in the Bay Area most of my life, I really don't care about spending $300 - $500k for a gigantic house/lot. You can spend a $1 mil and buy a mansion on several acres.

Sybrib says

she's in the emergency room for a scorpion bite.

Heck we have rattlesnakes in Santa Clara County. Might even find a couple on the trails in Palo Alto.

http://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/show_story.php?id=21293

Sybrib says

A relative of my partner's who lives in that part of the country just posted this afternoon on facebook, she's in the emergency room for a scorpion bite. I guess she has a laptop or iphone or some gadget with her to do the facebooking at the emergency room. Got bit reaching for something or reaching behind something while cleaning the porch.

You are forgetting that your are living above San Andreas fault line. Dude, stop treating BA as the best place on the planet.

Thanks expat - appreciate the perspective and opinion. Suburbia seems to be everywhere though and outside of San Francisco (city), the Bay area is mostly suburban though right (meaning a car based existence - not exactly too many other options?)

F2T and M2T - thank you so much for the detailed input. It's great to hear from you as you have moved from the Bay area and it's good to get a comparison. Like you mention, there are pros and cons and need to be analyzed before making a decision.

Sybrib - thanks once again for the input. Though like Thomas said, we do have critters (including dangerous ones right here in the Bay area too).

Dallas sort of sounds like where I grew up in NC- except when I was a kid there wasn't a lot in our area.Most of the growth has happened in the last 10-15 years. We grew up in a rural part of the area but whenever I drive from the airport through the city and through the suburbs its basically almost exactly as was described for Dallas: Lots and lots of cookie-cutter Mcmansion homes in culdesacs. Most have names like "Forest Walk", or "Sleepy Pines" or something like that. Whatever Mom-n-Pop eateries closed up a long time ago and have been replaced with chain restaurants that serve lots of sweet, salty, sticky food. All of the freeway exits are the same: a big cloverleaf exit that dumps out into the exact same big box stores and fast food restaurants. You never have to guess what's going to be at the next exit because the same things will be at the next one... and the next one... and so on.

There's a ton of people moving there because they want two primary things: A cheap, big house and a place to raise children. Oh- and good schools too. Other then that.... that's it. As a result most of the newer residential areas- which is basically most of the town- is sort of bland and boring. There are a lot of retirees and families from the Northeast and Midwest moving in because they've heard how cheap it is here. They just can't wait to move on down and scoop up one of those Mcmansions.

Anyway, truth be known this is how a huge percentage of America lives. Places like the Bay Area are in all reality are the exception. If you've ever only lived in a place like the Bay Area and move to one of the newer Southeastern cities with their mega-plex residential areas then yes- its going to be different. Very different. That isn't to say its all bad. Like I said- we grew up in the sticks and the primary form of entertainment was to work out in the yard. We had no cable TV. I'd probably do just fine in any of these Mcmansion areas because I don't require the need to be pacified with things to do 24/7. That said- when the day comes that we leave the Bay Area I will indeed miss it.

Texas and Plano may be great in terms of school budgets and county spending money wisely. Now. Here are some things you'd need to really think about:

weather - Bay Area residents will find it extremely hard to adjust in any other part of the US. You tend to take 47 of 52 weekends for granted, and really don't need to plan ahead. Dallas/Plano means four months are out due to very hot temps.

culture/diversity - Bay area tops this any time. TX is not as friendly, and there is a red neck undercurrent, especially when you step out of metro areas.

Universities: California is better inspite of budget cuts.

Schools: TX wins now.

Job opportunities: CA has more startups and hitech jobs however job aspirants require to have competitive educational qualifications and experience to compete with world class professionals who have migrated from all over the world and often have masters degrees.

I lived in Texas for 10 years before moving to California. Texas can be a very fun place to live if you focus on what nice things TX has instead of comparing it to CA. Texas is flat and ugly but it has awesome malls and shopping, great restaurants and a variety of food including Tex-Mex which I love and you can't get anywhere else. Yes it is hot but no place in the country has CA weather so get over it. The people are super friendly, they have a wide variety of pro sports teams, and Dallas has great music and night life. The thing I miss the most about TX is that you can buy a nice house in a good area very affordably. Also if you are religious Texas has strong and active churches and many people are involved in their church. When people find out I am in a bible study here in CA they look at me like I am a weirdo, in Texas that is very common. No place is perfect go with an open mind and enjoy the positive aspects of living there.

Moved from California to Plano (and unfortunately back again). You will love Plano. It is hotter and more humid in summer, and in winter there is sometimes snow, but actually I lived in tropical Taiwan for many years and so I loved the weather. The community is VERY livable. Plano ISD schools are some of the best in the country. It doesn't really matter which school. All Plano ISD schools are excellent. There is a mix of people from everywhere in Plano: Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese, Koreans, Africans, etc. So if you are thinking that you'd stick out or not be accepted as an Asian-American, don't worry. Also, if you are worrying about "home comfort," there are three Chinese supermarkets, and one Korean supermarket in Plano, as well as dozens of other ethnic markets, a HUGE Whole Foods, and the Central Market (which is best food store I've seen anywhere in the world). Cost of living is generally MUCH less than the Bay Area, and there was never any substantial property price bubbles in Texas. Don't overbuy (coming from California the houses look very inexpensive, but they are much less so when you add in your property tax payment). The crime is almost non-existent compared to most of California.

expat09721 says

it's illegal to keep Rv's and boats and travel trailers in your own fricking driveway in Plano

And this is very smart. I hate when my neighbor park on driveway bus size RV all year around with “ass” extended on sidewalk, forcing me to step on the street when walking dog.

July electric/gas bill arrived: $321.99 total. House 4300sf, one person stayed with baby all days, outside was 103-105F constant during a day. This summer is very hot and dry but for positive side there are no bugs because of it. A/C efficiency is very important here.

In Plano property tax average $5,000-6,000 per year for a house 3,000-4,000sf, which is still less than for a “shack” in Cupertino. TX has the second after CA population and economy may soon surpass CA (hey... China surpasses Japan!)
When we told our friends moving from NYC to CA the very first question all of them pop was “Are you crazy, it’s an earthquake zone!” Now they don’t mind visit us. Personally know people running out from Hawaii and others planning retirement in Alaska. Go figure.

Thank you all for your input.

We are currently visiting the DFW area and also went around Frisco where there seems to be more new construction. We looked at Dominion at Panthers Creek (by Darling homes) and will also be looking at some Highland communities in Frisco.

So, some specific questions:

Is it a good idea to buy new construction in Frisco (in terms of neighborhoods etc.)? The Darling homes are 300-350K. Or should we stick to older homes in Plano (looked at some of them but need updating, not as energy efficient etc.)?

Is it true that Frisco schools are a notch below Plano. Specifically, the Dominion maps to Tadlock Elementary, Maus Middle, and Heritage High. Any comments on these?

Any thoughts on Frisco vs. Plano in terms of safety, amenities, commute options etc.?

Thank you once again for your input.

CAtoTX,
Texas has less regulation in most areas compared to Calif.
This includes housing construction standards. There are some energy efficiency standards for new homes but they are far less than what Calif requires for its milder climate. In a new home you will likely see double pane windows but they can be windows with an uninsulated extruded aluminum frame. Builder will put in better windows if the buyer specifies. Same with in-wall insulation. Most will have R-13 batts but some owners will have upgraded, possibly to spray foam. You'll need to ask about the specific property.
If the house is less than 5 years old, make sure the builder is still in business. It's easy to get a contractors license, build a couple of junk houses and fold the company.

As far as commute options go you'll need to disclose the commute destination. In general, traffic flows(slows) toward Dallas in the morning and away from Dallas in the evening.

CAtoTX says

Is it a good idea to buy new construction in Frisco (in terms of neighborhoods etc.)? The Darling homes are 300-350K. Or should we stick to older homes in Plano (looked at some of them but need updating, not as energy efficient etc.)?

I worked out in the Richardson/Plano area about three years ago.
From what I remember, Frisco was the up and coming "high end" market in the metroplex. We couldn't figure out why it was so much more expensive - other than the homes were a little bigger - but not really any more centrally located to anything.

Plano had some nice areas that I wouldn't mind living in. From older subdivisions to some newer ones - but maybe a little more old school charm? It also felt like there was a little more to do in Plano. Plus, you're rights next to the technology corridor (think that's what it was called) where you had Cisco, TI etc...

I have built new homes in Plano and Frisco. Just like Plano, Frisco has an east and west side, with the west side being thought of as higher end. The previous threads all had very good info on moving there from CA. Frisco has many SoCa transplants. Which are very different from NoCa.
I think the exide battery factory on the east side has something to do with the stigma of the east side of the tollway. I built a new home at the Legacy Main area with a great builder who pulled out of the market before the housing bubble.
I think our newer home was better built than our plano home in the Coit Hedgcoxe area back in the 90's. Thicker insulation, better windows, and the very necessary radiant barrier up in the attic. The radiant barrier is a must, however you will notice many people on their front porches talking on their cell phones, as the barrier seems to block cell signals in the house.
If you buy older home in Plano with a pool, you must get it checked out as the soil shifts and a pool leak is no joke. Also be prepared in Texas to "Water" your foundation. Older homes have to be checked for foundation cracks and termites big problem in the older areas with trees.
Simply for standard of living/cost reasons, I would move back there from LA in a heartbeat. But nothing in the country is as beautiful as the bay area of California.

I think you need to keep in mind that 350k in TX is A LOT of money for a home, mainly because the taxes on a home like that could be very, very high. If the tax rate is at 3%, which is the upper end for TX, then you're looking at a $10,500 yearly tax bill. You will need to for sure check what the property tax situation is there well in advance. Don't forget that the taxes will go up with the value of the property.

Taxes in Frisco are at the 2.5 level depending on whether you are in Collin or Denton County. Actually, 350 isn't that high a price in the area you are looking. There are many multi million dollar homes in Frisco and Plano both. The median income last I checked was in the 90's. With no income tax, they get you through property tax. No doubt. But the flipside is if the value goes down, it is not difficult to get comps and get your bill reduced. I have done it with no problem. Property values do go down. Look at the history of Plano homes on the Collin County Assessor website and you will see.

And since I am so chatty this morning, I think going on Friscoonline.com is a great place to ask people who live in the neighborhoods you are looking at, what it's like to live there, their school and homeowner association experience, etc.