patrick.net
An Antidote to Corporate Media
1,260,588 comments by 15,051 users - DOGEWontAmountToShit, Patrick online now
invite response« First « Previous Comments 28 - 67 of 137 Next » Last » Search these comments
There is no excuse for not having a floor plan. It doesn't take 10 minutes to look at a house. Sometimes it is a 40 minute drive each way, 10 minutes to wait on the realtor, etc. If there are 50 houses that might be reasonable in an area, then that is a lot of driving around. Floor plans are pretty important & they vary quite a lot. If they were readily available, people could more easily find the right place.
The law suit bit is not a realistic problem. Just put a note up saying that they are drawn based on tape measure, and a buyer should confirm. There are other factual things like square footage that are often listed incorrectly. I would think that would be a bigger law suit issue.
More information can be a bad thing. It costs money to provide information, which drives the cost of doing business up. The other thing is that you really can't tell how the house floor plan feels until you get in it. I design plans for a living, trust me, it takes years of putting a design on paper and then seeing it built before you get a real feeling for a what the space will be like when looking at it on paper. Every homeowner I have ever worked with that had plans painstakingly designed to their exact specifications, had many things that they would change if they could do it over.
So do you think you can just take a quick glance at a floor plan on your computer screen and understand what it's like to be in that space? If this is such a good idea, why not provide plumbing, electrical, grading, landscaping and irrigation plans too? My advise is to go see the house in person. Visit it two or three times before making an offer, and make sure to take along your wife, girlfriend, sister, or mother. Women are usually far better at envisioning how it will all work once you fill it with your stuff.
Patrick
2011 Sep 7, 3:20am
If this is such a good idea, why not provide plumbing, electrical, grading, landscaping and irrigation plans too?
That does sound like a good idea! Seriously, it gives much more info about the house, at least to men. Women may not care as much. Just something about brain differences.
I've always found it funny that when I search for apartments online, they include pretty much all information I want, including *floor plans* but houses don't have it.
This was very frustrating to me too, when I was trying to buy a house out of state. Ultimately, I had to move, rent a place and then buy my house.
What is even sadder is that so many people over here are not only fine with this but also defending it. A floor plan is essential information, very important for the buyer to understand how the house is laid out. IMO, it should be included in every listing. Wouldn't the city or county have a couple? Why can't the realtor go get it by spending 30 mins and post it?
Patrick
2011 Sep 7, 3:24am
Floor plans could easily be sketched in far less than an hour's time, with disclosures that the sketch is very rough and only an estimate. A tape measure could be used to get each room's rough measurements.
A very sophisticated iPhone or Android app could send out ping sounds as you walk through the house and get the size and dimensions of each room automatically, and log it on a website with the GPS coordinates of every room. Bats basically create a "soundscape" of their environment in this way. Such a phone app is probably years off, but it's definitely possible to make.
I'm in the process of buying a house, and after visiting the property, I used floorplanner.com and a google sat. view to make a fairly accurate floor plan. This allowed me to study it more and think about how it would work. (I actually think this particular layout works very nicely!)
Check it out: http://pl.an/m6442r
It was fun to play around with.
So do you think you can just take a quick glance at a floor plan on your computer screen and understand what it's like to be in that space?
I can take a quick glance at a floor plan and know that I'm not going to want my stereo in a space, that there isn't a convenient nook for the piano, or I'm not going to fit my pinball collection.
My wife can look at it and be happy or unhappy about how close the guest bedrooms/offices are to the master bedroom.
Fewer places seen means less time+effort wasted and interaction with used house sales people
FNWGMOBDVZXDNW
2011 Sep 7, 4:07am
Anyone selling a house for $200K or up can spare an hour to create a floor plan.
When we bought a house, we took a tape measure and made our own rough floor plan to see how we could set it up. After we bought the house, we were given floor plan drawings that formed the basis of the tax assessment. There were also surveyer papers. It would have taken 5 minutes to scan that stuff in.
Some day most houses being sold will have a floor plan & probably use that mouseover program or something like it. It would save realtors a heck of a lot of time if people had more information at the computer. It would mean less driving around.
Ive seen small grainy jpegs of condo floorplans on realtor web pages. Not enough detail for them to get sued. Some houses have safe rooms or false walls where a 2nd floor has a passage way behind a book case to escape a robbery or fast escape of a mistress etc that they do not want disclosed to the general public where burglars can case the joint. I'm still trying to get the floorplan to Wayne manor, and thus the entrance to the Batcave.
So do you think you can just take a quick glance at a floor plan on your computer screen and understand what it's like to be in that space?
No, but You can understand very quickly if You hate it and have no reason to look farther
So do you think you can just take a quick glance at a floor plan on your computer screen and understand what it's like to be in that space?
I believe he meant the floor plans would cross off houses he would have no interest in. What's better, knowing right away you wouldn't want that house or having to get in the car and drive there to ultimately decide you don't want the house?
If this is such a good idea, why not provide plumbing, electrical, grading, landscaping and irrigation plans too?
That would be awesome! For now, I'd just like the floor plan, but hopefully in the future we'll get that information too.
if a sketch is provided it cannot include the size because simple math would quickly tell the buyers, hell all buyers, that the stated square footage includes the space between the walls and other sorts of spaces. I once carefully measured my house, including the triangular sections of bay pop outs, and was still a few hundred sqft shy of the stated size from the builder.
So now a dozen pictures, a location map, aerial photos, a description, a full set of specifications, pricing history, previous sales history and more right at your fingertips for every property on the market is not enough.
Yes, and clearly if houses were sold a particular way in the 1800s, we should continue to use those practices too.
A lot of this is about used house salesmen hiding information -- it's a cartel, and they're trying to keep it that way. Look, I'm not saying that every realtor should include a floor plan because it's not super common, but the excuses for not including one (if you have one or could make it easily) are always flimsy because the whole goal is to hide information to get more foot traffic. That's why unrenovated bathrooms don't usually get depicted in the listing. But let's get past this stupid "you'll get sued" and "it costs too much" nonsense -- simply not true.
Done!
2011 Sep 7, 5:31am
As a former carpet and tile guy, I can promise you 80% of the people out there, don't have the capacity to actually formulate an accurate floor plan. Not to scale that would be meaningful in anyway. The best they could do is just list room dimensions,(then you'd be surprised how many get that wrong).
Which as one poster already suggested would create legal problems, if someone draws a proportionately inaccurate floor plan that mislead someone on the actual dimensions of the place. Then to do it right, someone would have to be paid to come in and measure and place the doors, hall way, kitchen and bathroom in the proper places. Just how much do you want to spend on closing costs?
If it were as easy as some of you think, then you'd think the listing agents favorite tool would be a sheet of drafting paper and a tape measure.
madhaus
2011 Sep 7, 5:57am
There already IS an app to create floorplans on the iPhone 4 and Ipad 2. It's called MagicPlan.
http://ww.sensopia.com/english/index.html
Unfortunately no Android version, which is really stupid, as those phones had all the hardware tools needed to support the software.
More discussion on a real estate site:
"...a generation of lazy realtors who expect houses to sell themselves."
I really think this is a big part of it. Many real estate agents are rank amateurs who just don't want to do the work, or they don't know how. Exhibit A: Universally shitty photos that put houses in the worst possible light.
In boom times it was enough to just fill out the paperwork and cash the check, and the houses would sell themselves. Not so much anymore.
Buyers and sellers have always been the ones doing the legwork, since they have the biggest stake in the deal. Hopefully agents will find it harder and harder to skim money off home sales as both buyers and sellers figure out how to share information directly.
This piece of crap took me three minutes. Just a random bad layout I threw together. Yes, I could draw a professional one, but that's not the point.
It serves its purpose, it lets me know where every room is located and the general layout of the house. It isn't good by any means, but I do know a lot more about the house now. Any pictures shown will now have some context.
It cost 0 dollars. It takes almost no time. It's incredibly useful to the buyer, and indirectly, the seller. Anyone could do it. And this is just for an awfully bad floor plan, a more detailed one would be even better, but the basic layout is most important since most sites have room dimensions. .
Done!
2011 Sep 7, 6:56am
There's no dimensions? what good is it?
I could have just said, "It's laid out like a double wide..." and conveyed the same message that picture does.
everything
2011 Sep 7, 7:34am
A floor plan came with my home when I bought it, actually I got all the original blue prints. The floor plan was not even accurate, everyone goes by sq. ft., number of rooms, and photo's. It only takes about two or three internal photo's to see the floor plan in your mind anyways.
uomo_senza_nome
2011 Sep 7, 7:39am
There's no dimensions? what good is it?
Scale is not important as long as I can get an idea of the house layout. Most people care about the layout but not so much the dimensions. It is to get a rough idea so that we can visualize the house without actually visiting it. Moreover the dimensions of each room is usually listed in the MLS so it can be used in conjunction to evaluate.
The more information, more transparency the better. I don't know why such a simple point is very hard to understand.
When you are out looking at homes, opening one more door takes all of 15 minutes... hardly worth getting your pantyhose bunched up about...
15 minutes x 10 houses is more than 2 hours and if none of the layouts fit my interest, I would have done better things during that time anyway. How is this whining? I don't get it.
It cost 0 dollars. It takes almost no time. It's incredibly useful to the buyer, and indirectly, the seller. Anyone could do it. And this is just for an awfully bad floor plan, a more detailed one would be even better, but the basic layout is most important since most sites have room dimensions. .
You don't always even need dimensions. I've lived in houses of different sizes and can generally figure out the relative sizes of rooms in a house given then number of bedrooms and the number of square feet. Sometimes you just want to know what the flow is and where certain rooms are in relation to others. If you are considering a purchase on a busy street in SF (as is not uncommon in certain parts of SF), those bedrooms better be at the back of the house, for example.
Lots of Bay Area housing is composed of shitty tract homes that have been modified and expanded over the years. Some people have done this better than others and have actually hired an architect who thought about creating a good house, and some people made a hotchpotch of random additions that aren't up to code and don't fit into the house well. We've all seen these properties and can tell the difference, and a floor plan can help you evaluate this without wasting time.
More information is always better, unless you're a used house salesman.
I think the OP revealed a lot in his post: he said if he had the info he could waste less time. The statement implies that if you fail to provide it he'll go get it himself. That's something that makes real estate different that most businesses. If you're bad at advertising your furniture you're going to go out of business. If you're bad at advertising an RE listing frustrated buyers are going to come see it for themselves.
Done!
2011 Sep 7, 9:39am
Houses aren't moving, NOT because of lack of Marketing skills, or technique, I think we should all agree on that.
Easy, partners!
Most agents don't supply floorplans for their listings because they don't have them, and people don't ask for them. Simple as that.
Here's another tip: Women buy most houses. Men give the OK. Women pay attention to ambience, feel and specific amenities (size of closets, bedrooms and kitchen). They don't want to look at diagrams.
And what's so bad about "quaint," "cozy" and other euphemisms? agents have a duty to present their clients' homes in the best possible light. They're required by law to disclose everything that would affect the marketability of the home--but not on a web presentation or property flyer. On the other hand, an agent who lies about the home or the neighborhood is a fool. Buyers figure these things out pretty quickly, and will dump a deceptive agent in a hurry.
One more thing: The person who wrote that buyers and sellers do most of the legwork on a real estate transaction has never been an agent.
Is it because no one wants to take 1 hour to draw one in MS Paint if they don't have it? Yes, yes, and yes. Most people wouldn't have the knowledge or talent to do this.
then the lawsuits start right after the sale for fraud, mis representation, etc.
Not true. The key is adequate disclosure. If you say "floorplan is approximate for visualization purposes only, please measure the rooms yourself" you would adequately protect against lawsuits.
Disclaimers do not prevent lawsuits.
Why can't you just have your realtor call the listing agent and ask?
I think the OP revealed a lot in his post: he said if he had the info he could waste less time. The statement implies that if you fail to provide it he'll go get it himself.
Not quite. I only have so much free time, I have to pick and choose what to look at. I assume there are houses with little information that I'm missing out on because I can only assume the place won't be good enough. I'd say if you have a good floor plan, it would only benefit you to flaunt it.
Houses aren't moving, NOT because of lack of Marketing skills, or technique, I think we should all agree on that.
Sure. Just because more information won't fix the housing market doesn't mean it won't put a dent in it though.
Our realtor used "Mouse on House."
"Our Virtual Floor Plan Tours help sell Real Estate listings 66% days faster. Our customers found that, on average, they were selling their listings 66% days faster than the average of the rest of the realtors in our region."
That's a higher percentage than I would have imagined, but I believe it. They provide a floor plan, good pictures of every room, and are descriptive. Yes, information does help a sale.
Why can't you just have your realtor call the listing agent and ask?
Perhaps I don't want a buyer's agent? If that did work it'd just be another thing keeping realtors in the driver's seat.
I've decided i was completely wrong. I'm going to now immediately draw up some floor plans on my cad software, and RAISE all of my listing prices, and my rents, due to my marketing superiority, over all those other stupid non floorplan providing agents.
I don't get the sarcasm. I don't believe I ever said that a floor plan would warrant a higher home price, all I said that is that potential buyers will come to your house knowing what to expect, there's a better chance for a sale there.
Are you advocating a blind date over a date where you already know what they look like and their interests? Which date has a better chance of being successful?
Disclaimers do not prevent lawsuits.
Proper disclosure does. This is all about disclosure.
The lawsuit thing is a red herring. It's all about salesmanship.
REpro
2011 Sep 8, 3:58am
When I advertise house for rent I always include floor plan. It works very well, especially for tenants out of state.
I've decided i was completely wrong. I'm going to now immediately draw up some floor plans on my cad software, and RAISE all of my listing prices, and my rents, due to my marketing superiority, over all those other stupid non floorplan providing agents.
Thanks Patrick denizens for making me even more wealthy! cheers!
Better yet, hire me to do it. I will only charge you a small fortune, which you will easily regain from your superior advertising product. After all, who in their right mind would buy a house without a floor plan provided on the listing site? For an additional charge, I can include the location of every electrical outlet, just to make sure your prospective buyers know where they will plug their lamps in.
Oh God, this house looks depressing! I mean, "quaint," "cozy", and "charming". No way I would come to look at this house, now. Some real estate agent you turned out to be!
everything
2011 Sep 8, 1:28pm
I'm about to put up a FSBO sign in my yard. I have a nice big real estate company size sign, but wonder how to come up with a good sign. I was thinking on going to one of those sign specialists for tips, or maybe they can make me a real nice one.
@ tatupu70
I agree it is a shame that people can't be educated about architecture. I know you think I am being arrogant, but there are really standards for judging whether something is good or not. I find it annoying that in art, science, music, people feel their opinion is a valid as everyone else's. I refuse to accept that notion.
As an example there is a new geocentric model spreading across the country like a plague. This "new" mode of though holds the earth is stationary and the center of the universe. This notion that the earth does not move and everything else does is of course possible. You can even construct models that make this work. But the evidence they quote for this "new" model does not hold up as you would get the same results on a moving object (if you believe relativity). These people are idiots, plain and simple.
People who have intensively studied and understood a subject have a much
stronger framework to understand what is good and bad. Unfortunately we celebrate the few times these experts get things wrong, but ignore the vast majority of the time when things moved forward and changed in an orderly manner.
You might not personally like a great piece of architecture, but you should at least understand why it is considered great, and why the typical McMansion is truly ugly. While I myself must defer to the professionals who have studied and practiced architecture all their lives, I do take the time to try and understand their reasoning and insights.
Interestingly there was a book written about trying to get "common" people to design architecture called the Oregon Experiment. (http://www.amazon.com/Oregon-Experiment-Center-Environmental-Structure/dp/0195018249) It didn't work out well (even by the author's own admission), but it still worth a read if you have some spare time.
Oliverks
tatupu70
2011 Sep 8, 9:25pm
I find it annoying that in art, science, music, people feel their opinion is a valid as everyone else's. I refuse to accept that notion.
How dare they?
Hopefully you are being sarcastic. I can't quite tell.
leo707
2011 Sep 9, 3:20am
And please don't lump science in with art and music; the latter two are ENTIRELY subjective, and everyone's opinion is indeed just as valid as anyone else's.
Not unlike cooking a meal that would appeal to the majority, people can be trained to make music/art that will be found appealing to most people. This can be done because music/art are not entirely subjective.
There are "formulas" in sound and sight that are inherently more pleasing than others. Why do all pop songs sound similar? One of the first thing every artist learns is the Golden Ratio.
People however all have their own opinions about these things, and I would not say that one's opinion is more "valid" than someone else. That said education and experience often will refine someones taste making it more discriminating or "better" as oliverks1 would probably put it.
Some people can't stand an Islay scotch, who am I to tell them they are "wrong", but after tasting a variety of whiskeys they can gain an appreciation for it. Then after a while they may begin to enjoy what Lagavulin or Ardbeg Uigeadail has to offer.
@tatupu70
First of all thank you to leoj707 for providing the nice whiskey example.
I am not there to set them straight and dictate how they live. People should be free to chose what they want so long as it doesn't "harm" other people. Bizarrely that is not the case in many locations, where strict rules ensure that houses must conform to various cosmetic standard. So someone who wishes to deviate from the norm is penalized by the masses. Often those "deviant" houses are the more interesting houses.
I couldn't disagree more strongly about your statement regarding music or art. I would recommend taking some rigorous music theory classes.
Science is very shaped by experts. Our understanding and what is explored in science is limited by our own experiences. Science is often murky and requires judgement. As an example video that gives a nice example of this (and is a great introductory lecture) is:
http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/biology/7-012-introduction-to-biology-fall-2004/video-lectures/lecture-6-genetics-1/
Oliver
Under standard Lebesgue measure (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebesgue_measure), almost all numbers are irrational. So the fact that Golden ratio is irrational is in fact rather unsurprising.
Oliver
tatupu70
2011 Sep 9, 5:10am
I am not there to set them straight and dictate how they live. People should be free to chose what they want so long as it doesn't "harm" other people
I find it annoying that in art, science, music, people feel their opinion is a valid as everyone else's. I refuse to accept that notion.
So, it's OK for them to have an opinion as long as they understand it's not as valid as yours?
@Nomograph
Why would you say my invocation of the Lebesgue measure is invalid? I would argue that the Real numbers is a reasonable model for the "real" world. Number theory is usually more concerned with finite fields, Z, and the Gaussian integers. If you agree Reals are a reasonable basis for looking at the world, which measure would you prefer? If you think the Reals are not a good general purpose model for the real world, which field, ring, or group would you chose?
Oliver
« First « Previous Comments 28 - 67 of 137 Next » Last » Search these comments
It's frustrating to view 10-20 pictures online and try to piece together the layout of a house, especially when most pictures are literally the corner of a room. Don't waste my time! There are only a few pictures I care about initially.
1. Floor plan
2. Front of house
3. Back of house
4. Kitchen
Why, oh why, is there NEVER a floor plan for anything but new houses? Is it some sort of safety precaution? Is it because no one wants to take 1 hour to draw one in MS Paint if they don't have it? Is it because no one wants to sell their house?
I think I speak for most people that if a house isn't laid out a certain way, I don't want to waste my time. Putting the floor plan online attracts buyers who are interested in the house layout, and wastes less item on both ends of the transaction.