patrick.net

College's structure is just too fossilized.

What is needed is some sort of better integration between industry and the raw talent coming out of the K12 system.

I had a reasonably broad education at a UC -- actually "minored" in Poli Sci / International Relations of all things -- but so much of this education is now available for free on the internet.

College is an immense opportunity for personal enrichment, but like youth it's kinda wasted on the young, LOL.

IME, the key element of education is having one's homework graded. Once computers can start doing that well, we won't need the formal superstructure of college so much.

joshuatrio says

The plan for our kids is a 2 year community college program (take the general electives), then a decent in state university to finish up the 4 year. "Should be" pretty affordable.

That helps, and it's a plan I'd suggest to anyone. But it shouldn't have to be that way.

The GOP says

Stop conning your kids into to taking on 250K debt, college has out lived its usefulness.

Not in the eyes of the companies reviewing resumes. College has never really been all that useful, it's just a way to weed out the people willing to sacrifice time/money for their career.

250k debt is laughable and those people are pretty dumb, but 50k-100k is where most people end up without parental assistance. That is still a lot for a piece of paper that has no real value.

Philistine says

Loans and financial aid allowed higher education to become so expensive.

Government could enforce regulations on loan limits.

Bellingham Billy says

If Americans "had more money" then home prices would just go up.

Probably. At least their money would be in something that has some value, and is something you can walk away from if needed.

Bellingham Billy says

Though if we went back to state tax support level of the 1980s (expensive enough to not be free but cheap enough for everyone to afford it) it wouldn't be a bad idea.

I don't want states to help fund people into college. I want colleges to just be cheaper, and they would be if kids couldn't acquire 100k loans...kids are too stupid to see how that will destroy them financially unless everything goes perfectly with their career path immediately after college.

PockyClipsNow says

This SNAFU FUBAR is what you get when the government DOES step in.

That's only if they were asked to fix the college system. The college system is good...too good. It needs to be knocked down a peg because it's starting people off with a heap of debt. The government should have no trouble knocking down student costs if they wanted to.

StoutFiles says

250k debt is laughable and those people are pretty dumb

Well, if your spending $250K to become a doctor/surgeon.. then it's very reasonable. $250K to become a liberal arts major.. that's moronic.

I know surgeons who in their first year out of residency make $350K easy... So they can pay back that entire loan in one year of modest living.

When you combine the money flowing into the college system with the current irrational exuberance of the public about college it's a recipe for disaster. I think college is essential for 99.99% of people, but that doesn't mean college at any cost. People need to run a cost benefit analysis for their degree. It doesn't mean somebody shouldn't get degrees for lower paying jobs, but going hundreds of thousands or even tens of thousands in debt for a degree in a field that makes $30k doesn't make sense. I know far too many people my age that don't think twice about the loans they are taking out to pay for undergrad or grad school because they are "bettering themselves". I think for many it's become an expensive piece of paper to put up on your wall to show how smart you are.

We could accomplish the same education goals for much less. Colleges have become expensive resorts. Most of the real education still involves books and a whiteboard, but they now all compete with their difference facilities like rec centers that are "free" to the students. The students may never realize the actual costs of all the amenities because the price is built into the tuition. All of this education money flows into the university/college facilities to the detriment of the surrounding community businesses that used to provide these services to the students (such as local gyms).

StoutFiles says

The GOP says

Stop conning your kids into to taking on 250K debt, college has out lived its usefulness.

Not in the eyes of the companies reviewing resumes. College has never really been all that useful, it's just a way to weed out the people willing to sacrifice time/money for their career.

If I told you who I am currently contracted to write software for, it would make your head spin. Let's just say it's an industry that should have the brightest people in the world, and an industry that like the HC industry recently have to be in Federal compliance for effectiveness. This has the industry scrambling to make it so. I'm one freaking guy, chilling at home making a sandwich, from time to time I push some code to look busy. This company should have hundreds of people capable of doing what I do.
I was told in a phone meeting today, that last week in a national conference on the very topic of complaint with the new Federal guidelines. The person I report to, mentioned how far along we are, and floored folks from other companies, with teams working on the project. They were asked to purchase the code. But were told no, for competitive advantage.

The point is, my dumb ass did not go to college. I don't interview for the HR dolts to grade the content of my resume, I interview for BA(Business Analyst) management and IT directors, that recognize my skills by my accomplishments.

More over, I have never seen a credible offer for any tech position that clearly didn't specify of college degree or (x) amount of years of relevant experience.

In fact my resume doesn't even list any education, just my achievements and abilities. All of my references still call me for support, they have nothing but great things to say about me.

I can work anywhere in the world. I am making more than your average college graduate. Tell me again, why some pompous wind bag professor is necessary, when I am clearly capable of becoming a pompous windbag on my own.

The lowest reported unemployment rate is for those people with a bachelor's degree or higher, at only 4.4 percent...
While college may not be for everyone, the economic benefits when viewed in the context of having a job are evident. High school graduates with no college education are currently reporting unemployment at 9.6 percent.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700200101/Having-an-education-pays-2-even-in-a-difficult-job-market.html

EBGuy says

The lowest reported unemployment rate is for those people with a bachelor's degree or higher, at only 4.4 percent...

Have heard about OWS?

For employment I have one and only one Matra.

"Be Useful"

Why people go to college to major in Lesbian Lithuanian athletes, I have no idea. But I can't see much value or use in that knowledge.

Knowledge is knowledge it doesn't matter where you get it, as long as it's useful and more importantly needed.

The GOP says

I can work anywhere in the world. I am making more than your average college graduate.

Are you suggesting everyone try this approach? It's good you have a job but you are an outlier. Until companies stop caring about college to get your foot in the door, it's needed for the vast majority of people.

Los Angeles Owner says

Well, if your spending $250K to become a doctor/surgeon.. then it's very reasonable.

Depends. A lot of people don't get into med school, don't make it through...how much money was lost on a failed attempt? Remember that the loans don't even guarantee the degree, just the chance at it.

uh oh. getting close to a Godwin downward spiral here.

Los Angeles Owner says

Well, if your spending $250K to become a doctor/surgeon.. then it's very reasonable. $250K to become a liberal arts major.. that's moronic.
I know surgeons who in their first year out of residency make $350K easy... So they can pay back that entire loan in one year of modest living.

Sounds very pricey to be the patient, lots of price inflation. Patient might live, but find themself dirt poor living in misery...
..better off just pulling the plug.

StoutFiles says

Are you suggesting everyone try this approach? It's good you have a job but you are an outlier. Until companies stop caring about college to get your foot in the door, it's needed for the vast majority of people.

I have to agree with this sentiment. College is definitely overated and is really just a discipline test. Anything can be self taught if there is the motivation to learn. For example, if I invest enough time, I can pass the bar exam by doing a self study of the materials and don't need the formal law school traning. That's learning in the 21st century.

However, unless you are well connected or just a kid genious with some outlier achievement, you will not be able to start in Goldmans Sach, IBM, Ernst & Young, places universally recognized as the top places to start a career without the solid education background. After that, nobody cares about your school achievement, but getting in the door is getting harder and harder. The bar has been raised and the community college degree that can afford a reasonable start is non-existent nowadays.

I know what worked a decade ago will not work today based on what I have seen with the new grads.

What we have now is competing bubbles.

College bubble wants young peoples money to pay 100k++ in tuition but is competing with (still inflated in coastal US) housing bubble.

I think the only solution is for college grads to 're settle the interior of america' (move to vegas/detroit/the south cuz its cheap)

In this way there is a pressure relief valve(flyover) and both bubbles can still exist for a long long time.

SFace says

Anything can be self taught if there is the motivation to learn. For example, if I invest enough time, I can pass the bar exam by doing a self study of the materials and don't need the formal law school traning. That's learning in the 21st century.

This has always been the case in NY. You can get a bar license after apprenticing with a lawyer for a period of time and taking the bar exam.

SFace says

I have to agree with this sentiment. College is definitely overated and is really just a discipline test.

I've already discussed this issue in prior threads, but college serves at least two roles:

corntrollio says

1) something vocational that gives you job skills (e.g. engineering/sciences, often)
2) something smart and motivated people use to differentiate themselves from sheeple (e.g. someone who goes to be intellectually challenged, to be around other thinkers, to be around more people who are different but are similarly motivated)

The people who will fail are those who go to a crappy school and become an art history major without any interest in becoming a museum curator or engaging in some other profession where art history is useful and aren't particularly motivated. I'm okay with that.

The problem is not Harvard and Yale or even NYU and USC, but rather the list of crappy schools that overcharge and don't get you much. Certain law schools, for example, might fit into this category, as would many online colleges.
...
By the way, lots and lots of MBA programs would fall in the "crappy schools that overcharge and don't get you much" category.

The problem is not that ambitious and motivated people are going to college and enriching themselves and their job prospects.

The problem is that people who are neither ambitious nor motivated are going to crappy colleges and paying exorbitant prices for the experience.

Some of this is because people fall for marketing ("this private school has a good alumni network and will help you get a job", "our job placement rate is [liar]%", "our career office will help you...", "the average salary of graduates is $[liar]", etc.).

SFace says

I can pass the bar exam by doing a self study of the materials and don't need the formal law school traning. That's learning in the 21st century.

The real life guy from "Catch me if you can" did just that.

Stop going to overpriced overspeculated Universities. Your tuition problem is solved right there.

There are ways of lowering the costs of higher education. The first basic would be to end student aid. Less students would go but then schools would compete to get students back. There's really no incentives for schools to lower tuition if the loans are fully assured.

Go to a two year school before going to a four year. That way if you don't like it you have a degree rather than credits. I can understand changing a major a few times..but (Palin fits in here) if you string them across 8+ and still don't have a degree then something is wrong.

Ebook readers along with book rentals should bring down textbook prices. For lower level courses this isn't that bad but law books are damn expensive. It's getting better though. The worst is if there are deals to make books exclusive for that given class (then it cannot be resold)

Online classes should be more acceptable. I'm not suggesting everything goes online but most 100 and 200 level classes probably can be taken online.

Schools might be better off if they bought some foreclosed homes to rent out to students rather than make more dorms. I hear some parts of California are doing this. It also teaches a bit of responsibility as well.

My last employer didn't require a degree for the top management positions. However, an increasing number of competitors do. If you are next in line to be a main manager and are putting in at least 53+ hours a week then going back to get a four year degree is next to impossible. Those without a degree cannot move up. In other words if you don't increase standards with competition you can get dumped with those that cannot cut the mustard.

Experience can be nice don't get me wrong but it can no longer be taken as a blind faith. Prior employers are of no legal obligation to provide that much information about former employees. If there is no competency exam then how would one organization tell what an employee learned in their duration?

FortWayne says

Stop going to overpriced overspeculated Universities. Your tuition problem is solved right there.

Reminds me of someone I know what went to a fair amount of ivy league schools...extension schools that is. That and the numbers don't exactly add up. If I google a academic program that is clearly a four year program and there were only two years there then I assume that person only has credits and did not get a degree (assuming they don't have an associates listed)

The GOP says

I'm not an outlier, I'm a realist that was brought up in a time, when we were told you can do anything in this country you set your mind to, and a time your dad might have smacked the back of your head, and say "Yeah? So pay attention!".

You know who went to college? The Jews, that's who. The rest of us, went to work down at the plant, or reinvented the Surfboard.

William E Baughb

You're not an outlier--you're an idiot. Your comment about the Jews makes it obvious to rest of us that you didn't go to college, Adolf.

Perhaps your avatar would best be served from the other end of the horse since that's what I think of you.

PockyClipsNow says

Why isnt the government stepping in!?!?! HAHAHA

This SNAFU FUBAR is what you get when the government DOES step in.

They have been active making college unnafforable (to line union/gov employee pockets) for a looooong time.

You can not be serious. It is only when governments started pulling back funding for universities did the really sharp rise in tuition occur. UC tuition has climbed from $6K five years ago to a recently proposed plan of $23K within 5 years, all because the state pulled funding out and shipped money to the prisons. Those union jobs that you learned about on Faux News have been there since at least the 50s. (These for-profit private universities are a joke, though.)

College is a valuable experience. It might not be real world, but if people take it serious, it teaches you to think for yourself. We should be doing a lot more of that these days, rather than be mass consumerist sheeple.

Wait until college becomes unaffordable for everyone, not just liberal arts majors, but engineers, scientists, lawyers etc. I get a lot of comfort driving over a bridge designed by someone who studied civil engineering or flying in a plane designed by an aeronautical engineer, not someone who just learned on the job. I'm sure glad Jonas Salk studied and worked at a university, or else all of us on this board would be walking around with a severe limp.

SFace says

For example, if I invest enough time, I can pass the bar exam by doing a self study of the materials and don't need the formal law school traning. That's learning in the 21st century.

As with the CPA exam, Bar exam require the approval of the state prior to taking the exam. As such they require certain amount of education with a degree. No approval, no exam.

http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/Requirements.aspx
http://www.calcpa.org/content/licensure/requirements.aspx

Community Colleges are the best kept secrets around. No need to go to an expensive University for your first two years.

My alma mater:

http://www.alamo.edu/district/registration/tuition-and-fees/

Some of you know that I work in technology (Healthcare IT) in addition to being retired from the military, but what you may not know is that I only have a two year degree from San Antonio College - Class of 1983.

What really counts is that I have over 20+ years experience as a software developer. That's what gets me in the door as a consultant here in the Bay Area. :-)

Waitingtobuy says

College is a valuable experience.

Its also a sacrife of time and test of decipline. If you have the focus, you will make it.

There are good deals out there.. Santa Clara University is considered the best in re: Business and Law. For the money $40K isnt bad. Only half take out a loan and avg loan is $24K

http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg03_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=776

jvolstad says

Community Colleges are the best kept secrets around. No need to go to an expensive University for your first two years.
My alma mater:

Yep, De Anza Community College is great as well.

jvolstad says

What really counts is that I have over 20+ years experience as a software developer. That's what gets me in the door as a consultant here in the Bay Area. :-)

LOL! as long as you can leap over the HR departments.
Thats one of the major problems in SV .. The HR depts in SV started to believe their own hype, "hire only the best" and started to clamp down on otherwise very good talented folks.

Others have clampled down on authority of HR departments, so good people can get hired.

thomas.wong1986 says

The HR depts in SV started to believe their own hype, "hire only the best"

I can't tell you the number of younger, educated (BS or above) developers I have worked with who really don't have a clue what they are doing. It is reflected in some of their crappy code I have to fix.

Waitingtobuy says

You're not an outlier--you're an idiot. Your comment about the Jews makes it obvious to rest of us that you didn't go to college, Adolf.

Calm down Uncle Leo, what I'm not allowed to say Jews?

jvolstad says

I can't tell you the number of younger, educated (BS or above) developers I have worked with who really don't have a clue what they are doing. It is reflected in some of their crappy code I have to fix.

Oh I agree! Seen lots of problems on my side as well.

The GOP says

Waitingtobuy says

You're not an outlier--you're an idiot. Your comment about the Jews makes it obvious to rest of us that you didn't go to college, Adolf.

Calm down Uncle Leo, what I'm not allowed to say Jews?

William E Baughb

Of course you're allowed to say Jews. But thanks again for proving that your first stereotype (elitist Jews attending school while the rest of the world works) was no fluke, backed up by calling me Uncle Leo.

Shouldn't you be on the stormfront.org website, or do they not have a real estate section for trailer parks?

No I worked for many years on the cheap to gain the experience I have. Getting past mid level pay, took a really long time. A lot people left tech to get into Finance during the boom. I stuck with it. I worked for small shops and took on broader roles, in implementing and developing proprietary software and updating their hardware and servers. Being a one man shop, I did that for less than 42K for about 3 years.

I'm not an outlier, I'm a realist that was brought up in a time, when we were told you can do anything in this country you set your mind to, and a time your dad might have smacked the back of your head, and say "Yeah? So pay attention!".

You know who went to college? The Jews, that's who. The rest of us, went to work down at the plant, or reinvented the Surfboard.

One Uncle Doctor Professor care of California taxpayers (and borrowing up to their eyeballs students), and levering those Civil Servant professorial resources for fun and personal gain on the side, is conspicuous by his discrete absence on this discussion.

Patrick, do you really think "The GOP" belongs on this board spewing crap like this about Jews?

Michael D says

I think college is essential for 99.99% of people,

This quote is the exact reason why college has become so darned expensive. I teach high school, and, we as teachers, are INSTRUCTED to have "college talk" sprinkled throughout our lessons each day. I ignore such admonitions. I regularly tell my students the exact opposite...college is NOT for everybody (or 99.99%). If it was, why do people CHOOSE to attend and why are there admissions requirements?

Also, the mentality that "college is for everybody" is not lost on university trustees. If the demand is infinite among the population, why wouldn't they continuously raise tuition? It will only be when a significant percentage of our population divorces itself from this post-Vietnam mentality that "college is for everybody" that we will see tuition come back down to affordable levels for those who TRULY belong there and who will benefit from it.

thomas.wong1986 says

volstad says

I can't tell you the number of younger, educated (BS or above) developers I have worked with who really don't have a clue what they are doing. It is reflected in some of their crappy code I have to fix.

Oh I agree! Seen lots of problems on my side as well.

nothing new, old guys complaining about young guys and young guys complain about the old guys being slow and uncreative just as vocally. being in the middle, I look to the older guys for inspiration, but the younger guys as threats. they are much farther along at age 25 then when I was that age. The kids have more tools to succeed and I dont underestimate their abilities as they can move faster along if they have the right stuff. if all you have is experience, you will lose to them when they eventually get some years under their belt. 28 year old managers, 35 year old executives leading an older team is pretty common.

I went to a 2yr community college, then 2 yr state univ. My total student loan was $6500. I put my aids and grants money in stocks and made some money. Paid off my loan in 5 months after graduation easily.

I now am a senior manager of a big SW company. One guy under me was from MIT, another from UCB. Both with huge loans. The way I see it, expensive college are overrated.

SFace says

The kids have more tools to succeed and I dont underestimate their abilities as they can move faster along if they have the right stuff.

Their tools are no different than the tools everyone else uses.
The same tools I used decades ago... nothing shiny here!

Its takes more than age to succeed, it takes maturity and discipline. 26-36 is just a journey to that end. and many journeys after that.

SFace says

35 year old executives leading an older team is pretty common.

Reminds of some of the financial restatement more recently due to inexperienced staff. A lot of money riding from investors getting it right the first time. Oh well, crap happens.

Waitingtobuy says

Of course you're allowed to say Jews. But thanks again for proving that your first stereotype (elitist Jews attending school while the rest of the world works) was no fluke, backed up by calling me Uncle Leo.

I think if you got out and push, you can get more mileage out of that.

Of course it wasn't a fluke it was the truth, that the Jewish kids I knew growing up all went to college. I never faulted them for it, or called them elitists. You don't know me or where I grew up or the circumstances.
I have many Jewish friends and always have. I've had this conversation with them before. The bottom line is Jews are more involved with your kids futures, especially more so 20 or 30 years ago that most other American families, White or Black. What's wrong with pointing that out? How come it's common speak to mention how the Asian view education for their kids, and that's acceptable, but mention how education is important to Jewish people, and I'm Hitler.

Geesh, but its fine when you mention trailer parks, even if you weren't retorting someone you erroneously thought was being antisemitic. The difference in me and you is, I'm not bent out of shape about your statement. Even if you were looking for friction when I wasn't.

That's right Nomograph I wouldn't dispute that at all.

Jerry Goldstein Jewish Carpet installer and professional horse race handicapper. He would do a large flooring job, then use the proceeds to place on a horse at Calder Race Track. I actually worked with one time, and then ended up being his window better for a year. I was 21 he was 52, he taught me a lot about life and people in general. A very important person in my life, I was glad I met.

He might have not be a college grad, but he wasn't a slouch.
He was more eccentric than a Mad hatter though.
And could have been a Millionaire with his handicapping skills, if the underlying Gambling addiction illness didn't make him blow all of his winnings on bets he didn't handicap.

The guy would call a race down to the order of the horses that would cross the finish line. But only those races, where all of the variables lined up from his research. Those bets always won.

But then he'd have a revelation at the track after winning then bet the farm on a hunch. And lose it all back. My job was supposed to be to reason with him, not to bet those instances, but in the end. There is no rationalizing with a Gambling addict.

One day I'll write a book on his methods, I'll make more money from that, than he ever made at the track.

The GOP says

The bottom line is Jews are more involved with your kids futures, especially more so 20 or 30 years ago that most other American families, White or Black. What's wrong with pointing that out?

Because it sidetracks the topic to race. If anything though, you're supporting college by suggesting that Jewish people are going to college and having more successful careers than others.

While college isn't necessarily useful as far as learning goes, and we can all agree it's overpriced, most would agree it gives you a leg up over someone without a degree. Americans should be going to college, they just shouldn't be saddled with massive debt for doing so.

Just Reality says

If it was, why do people CHOOSE to attend and why are there admissions requirements?

Admission Requirements:
1) Good graduates in the workplace make the school look good.
2) Bad students failing out means lost money for the school.
3) Bad students are more likely to cause problems for other students.
4) Kids get to feel like they won the lottery just to go there.

Just Reality says

Also, the mentality that "college is for everybody" is not lost on university trustees. If the demand is infinite among the population, why wouldn't they continuously raise tuition?

My alma mater has doubled their tuition since 2000. Doubled. Why not if they have max enrollment every year?

Clara says

I went to a 2yr community college, then 2 yr state univ. My total student loan was $6500. I put my aids and grants money in stocks and made some money. Paid off my loan in 5 months after graduation easily.

That would be great if everyone did this, but people are lemmings. They're going to keep going to expensive colleges on a 4 year plan and stay in debt forever. The government needs to stop the banks from taking these stupid kids lives when they're too young to know how screwed they'll be. There needs to be loan limits, for everything really, but especially for college.

StoutFiles says

and we can all agree it's overpriced, most would agree it gives you a leg up over someone without a degree.

Yes I agree, my counter parts that went to college were making 80K or more with in a few years of graduating. It took me over 10 years of experience to make that. Though my method gave me a broader breadth and scope of the technologies. I know folks that graduated in 1999 or 2000, and are still stuck in the technology they were taught.

Thought before I go any further, I would say it's not that college isn't necessary. But rather, kids should be taught they can still succeed with out it. They should be taught self sufficiency, and the concept of trading up in life skills.
College scholarships shouldn't have a shelf life either.
In fact Colleges should require two to three years of real world work experience(in any job) before you can enroll.

Back when I went to school, there were more blue collar support for students, pupils weren't made to feel like they would be second citizens if they didn't go to a major University.

A student that didn't go to college had just as good of a shot, getting hired at a manufacturing company on the ground floor, and working their way to a high payed job, making the same as their Educated counter part by time they were 30 to 40.
Just as much as the College student had as graduating and ending with that same position.

Only recently has Learning been comoditized, and those that can't afford to go, are made to feel inferior.

I'm just here to say Poppycock! and Bullshit!

The problem with a College education, there's no guarantee it will all stick. Or I would still be on the floor humping carpet.

I received my master's degree in 1998 and had a total of $17,000 in loans when I graduated and paid it off in two years. A master's degree looks good on a resume, but I could have succeeded without it. College education in general is overvalued, while vocational education is undervalued. Nurses who studied at vocational schools earn more than many PhDs. Airplane mechanics, electricians, etc. do pretty well. Many people who go to college view it as a status thing and are like the couples who bought the McMansion at the height of the housing bubble. Most people look down on these blue collar jobs.

Whenever the government decides to subsidize education or housing, the actual cost goes up proportionaly. Politicians, particularly on the left, refuse to acknowledge this to the point that many in this country are now debt-slaves. Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and Sallie Mae have made the poor even poorer.