patrick.net

gameisrigged says

Yes you did. I wrote:

"Disclaimers do not prevent lawsuits."

and you wrote:

"Proper disclosure does. This is all about disclosure."

i.e., you made the claim that proper disclosure prevents lawsuits. I am merely disputing that claim.

Since when does "prevent" mean "absolutely prevents"?

Neosporin prevents against infection. But it's not 100%. Nice try, strawman-man.

After reading 119 comments, I have learned that realtards don't provide floorplans because

a. they are lazy
b. they read on a forum somewhere that if they did somebody somewhere might sue them
c. they want suckers, I mean buyers, to visit all homes and get in-person marketing pressure of other possible listings. Floorplans are customer repellent; DO NOT PROVIDE!
d. last time someone sketched something on a napkin and shared it, it created economic policy that wrecked entire nation

corntrollio says

Since when does "prevent" mean "absolutely prevents"?

Um, always. The definition of "prevent" is:

To keep from happening.

That's pretty unambiguous.

Neosporin prevents against infection. But it's not 100%. Nice try, strawman-man.

Bzzzt! Sorry, that is incorrect. Neosporin does not make the claim that it prevents infection. They advertise that it HELPS prevent infection. Apparently they are much more familiar with the meaning of the word "prevents" than you are. And I don't know why you added the word "against". You did not use that word in your original claim.

And actually, that's a nice example right there. Neosporin could "take a risk" and say that it prevents infection, even though they could be sued. Guess what they chose? They chose NOT to take a risk, because they can sell their product without having to risk getting sued over their advertising claims.

YesYNot says

Well, it makes no difference if you can assess things in 10 minutes if it takes 30 to get there.

Hopefully you would be viewing several houses in the same area. If you drive 30 minutes to a house, then drive 30 minutes home, then drive 30 minutes to ANOTHER house, you aren't using your time very efficiently.

The point is, I could rule out a house in 10 minutes if it had a floor plan. I could also find a house that I otherwise might not have looked at. Then, by the time I look at 5 or 20 houses or whatever is my number, I would probably like the options better. Probably, I would pay more, as I found houses that better fit my needs.

I don't know why you're so focused on floor plans. There are far more pressing issues that I would consider much more important than the floorplan. Why doesn't every listing include a soil report, an inspection report of the sewer connection or septic tank, type and condition of foundation, type and condition of plumbing, whether the roof leaks, whether there is any settling or cracks in the walls, amount of traffic on the street, proximity to schools, wiring report, whether the neighbors are selling crack, etc.? If I could find out whether there will be 10 school busses driving by my front door every morning and afternoon, it would save me a lot of time. Floorplan, schmoorplan.

If a realtor did that kind of thing, it would actually be adding value.
My realtor did not add any value whatsoever. The best thing she did for me was fart in the house while I looked at it. Then, she denied farting, so I lowered my price a bit just in case there was some sulfur smell in the house to contend with.

If you are the kind of person who lowers their offer because someone farted, there's no way any realtor could plan for every possible irrational reason you might do so.

The house should be worth to you exactly what it's worth to you. It's illogical to change your offer price because of some personal annoyance with the realtor.

tatupu70 says

That's poor logic. There are not only two important outcomes: house sells or house doesn't sell. Two more obvious outcomes are time to sale and price of sale. If presenting a floor plan decreases time to sale and/or increases price of sale then there is obviously something to be gained.

Wow, speaking of poor logic...

How would a floor plan increase the value of the house? It's the exact same house. That makes no sense whatsoever. One would assume that if you are at the point of closing escrow, that you would have toured the house. So you ought to know if you like how it is laid out or not.

By your logic, the selling agent should have an inspection report done and post the results in the listing. That would be far more valuable information than the floorplan. So why don't they do that?

There is basically a zero chance of losing a lawsuit by presenting a floor plan with a proper disclosure, so there is basically zero risk.

I disagree. It would be quite easy to misrepresent some material fact about the property by making a hastily-drawn floorplan, either inadvertently or deliberately. That would most certainly be grounds for a lawsuit.

I just don't get why you keep saying, "proper disclosure" over and over and over, and I keep explaining that "proper disclosure" (whatever that's supposed to mean) will not prevent a lawsuit. Then you guys get mad that we keep repeating the same thing. If you don't want the same thing repeated, STOP SAYING IT. I am not the one who is causing things to be repeated.

gameisrigged says

If you are the kind of person who lowers their offer because someone farted, there's no way any realtor could plan for every possible irrational reason you might do so.

If the realtor admitted to farting, then there would be no reason to lower the offer. From my perspective, either the realtor was lying or the house had a bad sulfur smell. There was a risk of plumbing problem or something else to contend with, and I would not incur that risk for free. In fact, if the realtor was trustworthy at all, I would not have bid on it. Who the heck would want a house that smelled like a fart? Any half-way intelligent person could anticipate that and plan accordingly.

gameisrigged says

Wow, speaking of poor logic...
How would a floor plan increase the value of the house? It's the exact same house. That makes no sense whatsoever. One would assume that if you are at the point of closing escrow, that you would have toured the house. So you ought to know if you like how it is laid out or not.

That's not poor logic. It's poor reading comprehension on your part. I started the sentence with "if" for a reason. Presumably better descriptions sell houses faster and for higher prices becuase they increase demand. I don't know if it's true or not, but there is a whole field of work devoted to "marketing" so I imagine there is something there.

gameisrigged says

By your logic, the selling agent should have an inspection report done and post the results in the listing. That would be far more valuable information than the floorplan. So why don't they do that?

That's not really my logic at all. But, in any event, buyers likely want to have the inspection done by their own contractor so posting one done by the seller isn't very valuable.

gameisrigged says

I disagree. It would be quite easy to misrepresent some material fact about the property by making a hastily-drawn floorplan, either inadvertently or deliberately. That would most certainly be grounds for a lawsuit.

You didn't address my point at all. How were you damaged?? Didn't you view the house yourself? You can disagree, but you are wrong.

gameisrigged says

I am not the one who is causing things to be repeated.

When you completely ignore the point of my post in response, then yes, it is you.

In my quest to pick up more rental properties I went to an open house this weekend that was being held at a 30 year old condo complex. The Realtor had a stack of nice, professionally made diagrams of this particular 1500 square foot condo. I asked her how much that floor plan drawing cost her and she said that the company that produces it comes out to the property and then puts the drawing together for $110.00 which seems very reasonable to me.

tatupu70 says

. I don't know if it's true or not,

Exactly. You are talking out of your ass, like you always do.

That's not really my logic at all. But, in any event, buyers likely want to have the inspection done by their own contractor so posting one done by the seller isn't very valuable.

Again - logic fail on your part. Your whole POINT presumably is that people would want to see the floor plan so they can decide whether they want to spend time viewing the house. Why wouldn't the same apply to an inspection report? One could rule out the house without needing to waste time driving to look at it. But you just completely flip-flopped on that point, and now are arguing what would happen LATER ON.

Let's try to follow your warped logic here: Having a floor plan up front is very valuable, even though you would want to have the house inspected and would see the layout of the house when you had the inspection done.

But having an inspection report up front ISN'T valuable because you would want to have the house inspected.

Yeah, that makes sense. Face the fact that you are arguing just to argue.

When you completely ignore the point of my post in response, then yes, it is you.

'Tis YOU who is ignoring MY point, hence my need to keep repeating the same thing.

YesYNot says

If the realtor admitted to farting, then there would be no reason to lower the offer. From my perspective, either the realtor was lying or the house had a bad sulfur smell. There was a risk of plumbing problem or something else to contend with, and I would not incur that risk for free. In fact, if the realtor was trustworthy at all, I would not have bid on it. Who the heck would want a house that smelled like a fart? Any half-way intelligent person could anticipate that and plan accordingly.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life. You seriously are going with that story?

Yet another person arguing for the sake of argument.

gameisrigged says

tatupu70 says

. I don't know if it's true or not,
Exactly. You are talking out of your ass, like you always do.

troll much?

gameisrigged says

Let's try to follow your warped logic here: Having a floor plan up front is very valuable, even though you would want to have the house inspected and would see the layout of the house when you had the inspection done.

Yes. There is a huge difference between a floor plan and an inspection report. If you can't see that, then I'm sorry. Talk about arguing for the sake of arguing. You've worn out--what 5-6 people with your inane replies?

gameisrigged says

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life. You seriously are going with that story?

The story is true. Not sure what is dumb about it.

You went from repetitive to grumpy yesterday. Bad day?

$110 for a professionally drawn of floor plan seems to be a very reasonable and a small price to pay to help market a property.

They want you looking at marketing materials, not facts. If you knew all the facts you'd be less likely to spend money on the product.

totally agree. i love looking at floorplans, and wish every listing had one.

StoutFiles says

Why, oh why, is there NEVER a floor plan for anything but new houses?

Can't say I ever thought about it. Next time I sell my house, I'll serious consider having the floor plan as one of the photos I post. While it will certainly hurt some houses that have crappy floor plans, it can only help houses with good floor plans.

PockyClipsNow says

you are dreaming.
if you put up a homemade floor plan it will NEVER match the real floor plan. In order to match it you would have to hire a pro and pay him 5k.

I think I can draw a pretty good floor plan just from memory, the dimensions might be off, the the basic layout would be correct. This is something I draw in 5 minutes, It only lacks the stairs leading up the 2nd floor from the bottom opening in the drawing and the stairs under it from the kitchen to the basement. Give me an couple of hours and I'll post something far better.

TechGromit says

I think I can draw a pretty good floor plan just from memory, the dimensions might be off, the the basic layout would be correct. This is something I draw in 5 minutes, It only lacks the stairs leading up the 2nd floor from the bottom opening in the drawing

That diagram there would be extremely useful for prospective buyers, but some people are convinced you'd get sued for it. Even if you'd told the buyers it was a sketch, even if you labeled it as a sketch, even though other pictures are not necessarily accurate over time, even though listed sq. ft. numbers are always debatable, even though apartments list floor plans and they aren't 100% accurate, etc.

My stance remains the same...if you've got a good layout and want your house sold, flaunt the floor plan! Or, just take some pictures of room corners and waste everyone's time.

StoutFiles says

This piece of crap took me three minutes. Just a random bad layout I threw together.

The "3-minite floorplan" tells me there is no bathroom in the Master Bedroom. A deal-breaker for me. On to the next house.

Here another attempt. I don't see how I could be sued for an advertisement. If I included the Sketch during the closing that might be a different issue.

PockyClipsNow says

then the lawsuits start right after the sale for fraud, mis representation, etc.

I really don't see a different between this than say McDonald's advertising one of there burgers. They use the best bun, lettuce, etc to make the optimal photo of there burger, when you get it in restaurant, it certainly doesn't look like that.

StoutFiles says

It's not like I'm asking for the blueprints, just the location of rooms and their area.

I actually have the original blueprints from when the house was built. If I had a scanner large enough, i could scan them in and post them in an real estate ad.

Warren2 says

StoutFiles says

This piece of crap took me three minutes. Just a random bad layout I threw together.

The "3-minite floorplan" tells me there is no bathroom in the Master Bedroom. A deal-breaker for me. On to the next house.

Good, that would prevent you from coming to see this hypothetical house and wasting your time as well as mine. Win-win. If there are instant deal-breakers in room layouts, wouldn't it be better to know them right away?

DennisN says

I think you answered your own question. It would take an hour to draw one in MS paint. But it only takes a couple of minutes to walk around the house with a camera and take a dozen shots. For the photos no preparation is needed:

I agree with the above.

TechGromit says

StoutFiles says

It's not like I'm asking for the blueprints, just the location of rooms and their area.

I actually have the original blueprints from when the house was built. If I had a scanner large enough, i could scan them in and post them in an real estate ad.

Digital camera should be sufficient.

zzyzzx says

TechGromit says

StoutFiles says

It's not like I'm asking for the blueprints, just the location of rooms and their area.

I actually have the original blueprints from when the house was built. If I had a scanner large enough, i could scan them in and post them in an real estate ad.

Digital camera should be sufficient.

If the homeowner isn't insulted by your offer...you didn't bid low enough!!!

But Warren JUST said a bathroom not next to the master bedroom was a deal breaker. Pictures of room corners doesn't let him know not to waste his or my time. Pictures arent enough.

When it comes to running a business, what you're spending money on, and what value you get for that purchase, is frequently as important as how much you're spending on it.

A nice looking floor plan isn't a cheap thing to purchase, and offers little return on investment, as I can rent/sell just as much without paying for that floor plan as I can if I had paid for it.

With a good digital camera, and a cheap video camera, I can show you anything you want to know about a property without spending any money, and post it to my weblog, hosted for free by google, and then drive traffic to my weblog through free craigslist and backpage ads.

That's why many of us don't provide floor plans. Our businesses depend on providing our clients with as much value for their dollar as possible, and we get very little value from buying floor plans compared to the other options that are available.

Done! says

There's no dimensions? what good is it?

It's a good crude approximation.

propmgrjay says

When it comes to running a business, what you're spending money on, and what value you get for that purchase, is frequently as important as how much you're spending on it.

A nice looking floor plan isn't a cheap thing to purchase, and offers little return on investment, as I can rent/sell just as much without paying for that floor plan as I can if I had paid for it.

With a good digital camera, and a cheap video camera, I can show you anything you want to know about a property without spending any money, and post it to my weblog, hosted for free by google, and then drive traffic to my weblog through free craigslist and backpage ads.

That's why many of us don't provide floor plans. Our businesses depend on providing our clients with as much value for their dollar as possible, and we get very little value from buying floor plans compared to the other options that are available.

Who said anything about a professional floorplan? The main thing I want to know is where rooms are located in the house. I want to know if the bedrooms are grouped together, bathroom locations, etc. This can be done in less than 30 minutes in MS Paint.

I have said before that video would be excellent, but the way real estate sites are set up, it would need to be hosted off-site, so a little more challenging. A floorplan could be uploaded as a house picture and requires less extra work. I'm talking maximum return for little effort.

StoutFiles says

This can be done in less than 30 minutes in MS Paint.

I have tried many times to create a floor plan on my own using many different programs, including MS Paint. I've never been able to create one that looked decent. I've decided that I am not able to create a decent looking one on my own. That is why only a professionally made floor plan is an option, and for reasons I specified earlier, that's out of the question also.

I can take good photos though, and I can shoot adequate videos, so I use photos and videos instead.

That is why I do not provide floor plans, and I suspect it's why many other realtors don't as well. You asked, I answered. I can't help it if you don't like the answer.

TechGromit says

I really don't see a different between this than say McDonald's advertising one of there burgers.

The difference is McDonalds advertisements aren't regulated by the DRE, they aren't scrutinized by real estate attorneys, they are not usually litigated, and they are not usually investigated by the Fair Employment and Housing Authorities. Real estate ads and marketing materials frequently are.