patrick.net

"Productive work leaves behind some artifact or body of knowledge about how the world works."

Not when a hedge fund buys the company and guts everything in search of profit. It's all lost, or fragments are picked up by people picking over the wreckage.

We have to distiguish between the way the world worked decades ago and now, when the flower of greed is in full bloom, and power, like some tropical plant, is attracting insects to slaughter.

edvard2 says

t the end of the day buying a house is about 95% based in raw emotion. Finances have nothing to do with it.

I thought on this and i have to agree. it is emotion. BUT I think emotions are also important to a decision making.

In a way, it's a renter's paradise. The rents are high, but the prices are wacko high. Take your pick if you want to live here.

and a man can keep his $$$ and put it to work doing some thing he beliefs in.

B.A.C.A.H. says

SFAce is a Quant., not a scientist nor engineer.

For us scientists and engineers, it is what it is because he Says So.

There is a name for that and I can not for the life of me think of it. like a disease.

And yet my own rent is less than $3K/month and the asking price for similar places is about $2M in my neighborhood. Seriously.

And I've been renting here for 12 years.

But these deals don't exist anymore in Menlo Park or nearby. I've been renting in MP for 11 years (~$1m place renting for $2200-2600), owned by the landlord for 20-30 years, so we're still their cash cow.

I keep looking for a larger rental and can't find anything decent under $5000 a month.

I also know other landlords charging double to triple their monthly costs. Because they can. Thank you Facebook.

See that's not sustainable. Once the landlord wises up and figures out that their $1m can earn for more than $2200 per month the house will probably get sold.

We left Bay Area, the city of Albany to be exact, six months ago after living there for 25 years. We bought a house in West Virginia. I was initially reluctant to accompany my husband here, perhaps because I had stereotypes about people outside the big cities.

My fears about leaving California did not turn out to be true. Our quality of life is better. In California we coexisted with a random bunch of people on our street who spoke different languages and whom we never got to know no matter how many years went by. We live in a community now. We see the kids in our new neighborhood trick-or-treating and riding bikes; they wave and say hello. People visit, share produce from their gardens, take turns mowing lawns. The librarian knows my name and goes the extra mile to help me get books; the postman knows my name and is similarly helpful. I have made more friends here in a month than in years in the Bay Area. It was a big surprise to find a community of writers and artists here, unpretentious and welcoming.

We miss good Mexican food and the little luxury here and there. But we are adapting. We mail order Peets coffee and olive oil; we find local substitutes. Mostly we rejoice in newfound luxuries. We have a beautiful yard now, twice the living space as before. Instead of typing in the corner of a bedroom, I have a quiet book-lined study with a view. I have a dishwasher! My own washer and dryer! A porch with a swing! And owning our own four bedroom place is cheaper ($1200 a month) than renting our former 800 ft. apartment in California.

To follow up my previous post, I think I spent a large part of my life living in a place I didn't like very much, leading a life that was impoverished in many ways, because of an illusion. Daily life in the Bay Area was cramped, noisy, dirty, expensive, and lonely, but somehow I believed myself to be living in a blue, liberal place that was better than those red rural places. I imagined myself living among intellectuals and freethinkers, who were superior in every way to the narrow minded religious bigots that lived in the hinterlands. It was a construct founded on a false dichotomy that turned out to have no basis in reality.

Paperback Writer says

We mail order Peets coffee and olive oil

I'm in Mass and even I can get Peets and olive oil. I'd check around...maybe Albertson's or Trader Joe's.

mdovell says

maybe Albertson's or Trader Joe's.

you got Wegmans there. THE BEST

Paperback Writer says

but somehow I believed myself to be living in a blue, liberal place that was better than those red rural places. I imagined myself living among intellectuals and freethinkers, who were superior in every way to the narrow minded religious bigots that lived in the hinterlands. It was a construct founded on a false dichotomy that turned out to have no basis in reality.

Congratulations. You've discovered something most people in places like the Bay Area will never discover for themselves. I myself came from one of those "red" states, thus I've done the opposite of most whereas the lion's share of those who relocate to the Bay Area do so from either the other coast, or some large Midwestern city. Yes- there are close-minded people in red states, but so too in blue states. They are a small fraction of the whole, mixed in with the majority of the nice and respectful people that make any area a great place to live.

I grew up around liberal and conservative people, people of different ethnic backgrounds, different ideas and tastes in food, music, and art. All in the middle of "flyoverland"- a place that most people in large metros will never visit or know about because they have pre-conceived, ignorant notions of those places they've never been to nor will go to are like. Their loss.

Anyway, glad things worked out for you. Trust me- I think about going back all the time.

when I was a younger man in the sixties I joined in with the ANIT WAR crowd. I get in deep with this bunch. The thing is when i came to disagree about near anything i was a enemy and treated like a trader. i had a boy try to slit my troaf hid in back of my car and jumped me when i was on the 101. red or blue does not matter how ypu paint it. men are mostly evil creatures. we have to be to survive., you will not advance if oyu are mr nice guy. sad but true

Paperback Writer says

A porch with a swing! And owning our own four bedroom place is cheaper ($1200 a month) than renting our former 800 ft. apartment in California.

you can get that in California too just move to Victorville.

Paperback Writer says

ought a house in West Virginia. I was initially reluctant to accompany my husband here, perhaps because I had stereotypes about people outside the big cities.

My fears about leaving California did not turn out to be true. Our quality of life is better. In California we coexisted with a random bunch of people on our street who spoke different languages and whom we never got to know no matter how many years went by. We live in a community now. We se

Paperback writer. yours was a BEAUTIFUL post. thank you.

toothfairy says

you can get that in California too just move to Victorville.

you being cute. funny coming from a guy living in a toilet like Oakland.

We have tutti fruity in Victorville.

$117k on a quiet neighborhood street. No need to move to West Virginia.

http://www.homes.com/listing/photo/132826943/12564_Fox_Tail_Way_VICTORVILLE_CA_92392

edvard2 says

After moving here it struck me... people living here seem to think that their own tiny little chunk of the BA is magic and special.... Anyway, its just an observation of mine.

Edvard, you are not a local kid. You are projecting your own perspective of being an immigrant onto your perception of behavior of other immigrants and then you are generalizing it onto everyone.
(By immigrant, I mean, not from the Bay Area).

B.A.C.A.H. says

edvard2 says

After moving here it struck me... people living here seem to think that their own tiny little chunk of the BA is magic and special.... Anyway, its just an observation of mine.

Edvard, you are not a local kid. You are projecting your own perspective of being an immigrant onto your perception of behavior of other immigrants and then you are generalizing it onto everyone.

(By immigrant, I mean, not from the Bay Area).

Well my husband was born in SF and has lived in the Bay Area his whole life. All his many friends were also born here, many are multiple generation here in the BA. They all feel almost exactly like Edvard. Actually it's a running joke about how it's the people that move here from outside the BA that become so obsessed with certain towns and neighborhoods and spent millions trying to live in them.

Most of the natives either live in much cheaper areas that actually have nice, old communities where people know each other, OR they happen to live in "nicer" areas simply because they bought decades ago and the areas turned into fortress areas...

In virtually all of these discussions about price/cost of real estate, apples to oranges comparisons are made to justify why one area prices are justified and others are not.

I think the obvious trap here is that everyone seems to know the PRICE of everything and the VALUE of nothing. Price is typically a fixed objective number, Value is almost always quite subjective and varies greatly from one individual to the next. It is impossible to quantify value in comparison equations for different people as we all can assign different prices to what we value.

Case in point of the above examples. While it is true that West Virginia is significantly cheaper than the SF Bay area in almost all metrics and WV is arguably a very pretty state with friendly inhabitants, there are issues with this comparison that makes it rather pointless or at best highly dependent on individual circumstances and subjective and objective points of view, especially when assigning VALUE.

For example, I am gay. West Virginia offers ZERO legal recognition of my legal & religious marriage and arguably very little social acceptance as well. I put a high value on living in a community where I am accepted and can belong and participate. For a heterosexual, this may not affect you at all, therefore you probably put zero value on this difference. For me, I simply cannot put a value on these realities and for me they are priceless. These differences increase my mental and physical health living in the SF Bay area and conversely both would suffer immensely should I live in WV. Again, my health is priceless.

Another example; I work in the biotechnology industry. SF and the Bay area has literally hundreds, if not thousands, of biotechnology companies as well as other related industries. West Virginia to my knowledge has zero or if any exist at all I suspect that you may count the number on one hand. So for me to live in WV I would either be unemployed or working far beneath my skill set level as well as earn substantially less money than I would here in the bay area. So if I did live in WV I would probably make 10x less and enjoy any employment that I did find 100x less. If I were a coal miner, or other profession more endemic to WV, this equation would most likely be reversed.

Another example; I put a high value on living near the ocean and in a moderate climate. I cannot enjoy either in WV. I also love living in a redwood forest, impossible in WV even though they have beautiful forests of a different type. Many other examples such as these may be made.

So in conclusion, I probably pay 10x more for real estate in the SF Bay area than I would if I lived in WV. For me, the benefits of living here are 1 trillion + which is quite a bit more than 10x.

These types of comparison lists may go on and on. So I am not sure why folks here keep making useless comparisons such as these to quantify the value of real estate when no meaningful one size fits all subjective or objective measurements exist.

Further, I can make the same types of arguments when evaluating one area within the SF Bay area with another. Of course, the differences may not be quite as extreme but significant differences exist as well. So please keep in mind that the VALUE of a property for each individual often has NOTHING to do with PRICE.

One more example;

I recently relocated from Vancouver, BC Canada to the SF Bay area. SF Bay is Objectively much cheaper than Vancouver but it also has many similarities that I value...a liberal social climate, legal same gender marriage, mountains and forest and the ocean that I enjoy plus is a biotech hub, arguably much smaller. So why did I make the move? I have greater career opportunities here in the SF Bay area. With most things being similar in nature, this fact tipped the balance sheet for me.

Buster,

enjoy it while it lasts.

As high-income childless Hipsters concentrate into The City and other Hip Coastal Enclaves, almost Solid Red Swath from Redding to the Inland Empire has a different demographic that includes fertility and a higher birth rate than along the Left Coast.

They are breeding future voters who will likely be like minded. Prop-8 was their shot across the bow. It is only a matter of time before California becomes a Red State, hostile to the Cool and Hip Culture of the Bay.

BACAH; 'They are breeding future voters who will likely be like minded. Prop-8 was their shot across the bow. It is only a matter of time before California becomes a Red State, hostile to the Cool and Hip Culture of the Bay.'

Statistics show otherwise. http://pewforum.org/Gay-Marriage-and-Homosexuality/Support-For-Same-Sex-Marriage-Edges-Upward.aspx

The younger generations, even those with bigoted parents, continue to show more tolerance and less bigotry toward gays and other minority groups than their parents. In fact, 53% of the Millennial generation (1981+) now support same sex marriage. This acceptance is even higher among the educated. Being that the SF Bay area has many more places of higher learning it will always have more educated people as well as attract the educated from outside the area.

But I think you are overlooking my point of false comparisons of different geographical regions and their respective housing values and costs.

HousingWatcher says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Yes SF is absolutely a crazy place. I rent a 1.3m home for 3000/month. Try to get a mortgage payment covering 1.3m for close to that. Also, by paying 3K/month I sleep well knowing that I am not in debt to someone for 1.3m!

I don't buy that. Either your paying well under market value for rent or your house is not worth anywhere near $1.3 million.

Buy what you want. The house on my right sold for 1.2m and the sister house exactly the same down the road sold for 1.3m. Am I getting a good deal, yes. Maybe my landlord could rent it for 4k/mth if he wanted, but the reality is that my history of being a great renter for 15 years has value. I don't damage a place, don't stop paying rent, and actually have become a friend to my landlord.

The reality is that it is now much cheaper to rent in the bay area. Especially San Mateo County. Just like shopping for a home when you are renting money, I took my time and found the perfect fit for my frugality and family.

Happy Renter, YMMV

Buster says

Being that the SF Bay area has many more places of higher learning it will always have more educated people as well as attract the educated from outside the area.

Ah yes, the Smug (Left) Coast Talk, concomitant with the sentiment that the Bay Area is the Center of the Universe.

The Bay Area is not The Center of Universe. And it's not even the Center of California, though together with Cool and Hip L.A., it is the Junior Partner of the Smug (Left) Coast.

But even though the Bay Area is not The Center of The Universe, it is part of California, which as the population of the Red Counties grows, will together with its more bigger Socal Left Coast Partner, continue to be the Center Focus of Red Resentment.

B.A.C.A.H. says

But even though the Bay Area is not The Center of The Universe, it is part of California, which as the population of the Red Counties grows, will together with its more bigger Socal Left Coast Partner, continue to be the Center Focus of Red Resentment.

Perhaps you are transferring your Red Resentment onto the whole? If you take the time to look at the statistics at the link cited you will clearly see that your resentment is not shared by the younger generations.

Secondly, I am merely pointing out what the statistics show, namely, the more educated a person is, the less likely they are to harbor ill will toward gays and the more likely they are to embrace civil equality. Because the SF Bay area has more universities and colleges of higher learning I am making the correlation that the SF Bay area will likely have more residents that support civil equality vs. the interior of California with less institutions of higher learning.

Lastly, I have not made the claim that SF and the Bay area is the center of the universe. Actually, I don't believe that planet Earth is at the center either as it seems to be more of a third grade planet.

Having said all of that, clearly, you should follow what floats your boat. To get back on topic, what I am really saying is that one should live where one finds value. For instance, if you don't find value in areas such as SF that embrace more liberal views, higher education, technology clusters, proximity to the ocean, etc. then you are simply wasting your money as it is quite expensive to live in the area. You would be better off finding an area that contains the qualities that you value if they can be experienced at a lower cost.

So if the 'Red Counties' of central California match up more with what you are seeking than I would recommend that you relocate there as they can be experienced at a much lower price for what I suspect will provide a greater personal value to you....with perhaps the exceptions of rural areas such as Orange and San Diego counties that may offer the same.

Buster,
I am more liberal than you think, but I cringe when I hear the Smugness about our elite universities making us wiser/smarter/better than our "less educated" brothers and sisters.
I also cringe from local-in-your-face leftism, particularly taxpayer supported (while the state goes broke) ones like this one http://www.swopusa.org/old_site/avarenbio.php, sure to stoke and provoke asymmetric backlash.

Interesting what you write about values.
There are a few locals "left" around here, with deep roots, extended family, etc.
Also as someone else who posted on this thread pointed out, it does not have to be expensive to live "here". But if one immigrates to here and shares the perspective of other such persons that the only "here" here is either in Hip neighborhoods or The Fortress, then one would think so.

Interesting link. Actually I support legalized prostitution and the rights of sex workers. For transparency, I am not nor have I ever been a sex worker or utilized their services. I don't advocate spending ridiculous amounts of money arresting and jailing sex workers or the persons who choose to pay for such services. IMHO, this is the real waste of tax payers money by criminalizing activities and throwing away good tax payers money trying to stop activities that simply do not harm you or me.

I don't find this an elitist point of view, just one that makes financial and social sense. In a similar way, for example, I find it completely ridiculous filling up our courtrooms and jails with persons who choose to smoke pot. Costing us billions. While I don't smoke pot, those who do are not making my life less than grand.

Back to real estate. I often wish areas that embody qualities that I value were less expensive. My hunch is that I am not alone in putting a higher value on these locals as most things simply follow the laws of supply and demand and that these areas are more expensive because a lot of people want to live there. My favorite places such as SF, Vancouver, Copenhagen and Vienna are all terribly expensive places. So if your values are more in line with less expensive cost of living areas, instead of being resentful and angry, I personally would be counting my blessings...and my cash! :)

So if rents are high, that means local salaries and/or savings are high. And that means that local kids also have the good luck that there are a lot of high-paying jobs nearby.

IF ?

We learned in 2008-2011, what headhunters already knew for a long time, local salaries are NOT that high.

For example, many wrongly believed Google employees were HIGHLY paid, a false assumption since we found out this year 2011 Google implementated 10% compesation raise.. They actually have been paying less for several years.

The real High Tech industries face too much serious competition to just overspend like drunken sailor. We have serious budget constraints and its goal isnt to overpay employees because housing prices have inflated.

Certainly we saw industries and salaries boom in the 70s and 80s but we didnt see home prices or rents skyrocket compared to 1998-2008...

Buster says

My hunch is that I am not alone in putting a higher value on these locals as most things simply follow the laws of supply and demand and that these areas are more expensive because a lot of people want to live there.

So why did prices fall in SF/LA region from 1989 to mid 90s and more recent. Or better question, why didnt prices inflate in the 80s to the same degree as it did in the past 10 years, 1998-2008. See chart above... Supply/Demand or just Irrational Exhuberance?

Its still the same California that existed for several decades... Did you ever contemplate that certain parties (like realtors) were exaggerating and inflating the perception of California living. Why was it much more cheaper in decades past ?

Buster says

Secondly, I am merely pointing out what the statistics show, namely, the more educated a person is, the less likely they are to harbor ill will toward gays and the more likely they are to embrace civil equality. Because the SF Bay area has more universities and colleges of higher learning I am making the correlation that the SF Bay area will likely have more residents that support civil equality vs. the interior of California with less institutions of higher learning.

Do some fact checking first...

You will find during the tech boom 1970-1990, places like Santa Clara County was more right wing GOP voting block than left wing Democrats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Clara_County,_California#Government_and_politics

The current view you state, has been around for some 5-10 years a best, but it certainly not what has been happening in places like SCC for the past 30 - 40 years. In reality the highly educated population of SV were more "guns and religion" as Obama would say.

The media has done a great job rewriting history and brainwashing people.

Wacking Hut says

One way to rationalize the market is to move away from high-priced areas and save up cash in low-cost areas.

Local employers have already done this, they moved jobs to low cost areas.

I find two kinds of GOP-identifying folks in my decade in this country. The rich affluent types who are primarily fiscal conservatives...most of these folks do not much care as much about the gay/abortion/flag issues but more about reducing taxation and what they think is too much welfare. There is another set of the "guns and religion type" as obama would say who think they can be the rich affluent types in the near future. I dont think there are too many of the latter in the SV area.

Going back to the original question: As an immigrant, I would never leave the Bay Are due to its multiculturalism, ease of assimilation, plentiful jobs and good weather. Only NYC compares favorably but is too crowded for my taste.

House and rental pricing are completely crazy at times in the SF Bay Area but EllieMae had it pretty much right on Maslow's heirarchy ;)

You can live anywhere in the US or even the world, but kind of like art, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. No one makes that beholder pay the price until they decide to open their wallet and do it.

That being said, I have lived in the SF Bay Area for many years. One cost advantage is not paying a ton for heating and air conditioning. A few other advantages are the property taxes, overall beauty of the area and the amount of opportunity it brings to living here.
There are many negative things: home prices, rental prices, traffic, smog, but the pros out weigh the cons.

I've lived in the midwest and while it's tempting to move back out there I feel like I'm out of the loop not really on the cutting edge of all that's happening. That's one reason I like the bay area.

Buster gave three reasons why he would never want to live in WV: 1) need to live in a gay friendly environment, 2) climate, 3) work.

1) I'd say this is more mythical blue state thinking about red state people. The media creates the impression that gay phobia is rampant outside of major urban areas. The truth is homophobes are not particular to any one place. Not any more, not from what I have seen firsthand. I have gay neighbors here in WV! And I have not met anyone who has issues with gay people or at least anyone who is impolite enough to say so. When you live in a small town, people make an effort to get along. I am also an immigrant myself by the way, and, other than a friendly question or two, this has been a non-issue. WV has the highest % of native born inhabitants of any state; even so, my little town contains Chinese, Vietnamese, and Salvadorans, who all seem to fit in quite well. In fact, I've noticed less racial tension here than in the Bay Area; for one thing, I'm not afraid when I see black men walking towards me on the street at night.

2) Getting my first taste of winter here. Brrrr. But summer was lovely and so was fall, loved the fireflies and the colors of the trees. The Bay Area had a lot of drizzle and fog; it feels good to bask in sunshine on my porch. I'd call it a wash.

3) Sadly true. If you aren't self-employed or if your company won't let you telecommute, don't come here. No biotech at all and local wages are low. My husband and I are able to telecommute, and this is what made everything possible. I'm not saying it's for everyone, but if your work is portable like ours, quality of life issues are something to consider.

"You lived 25 years in an 800 sf apartment? The problem isn't California, the problem is that you couldn't afford to live here."

For much of this time, my husband and I had a combined income of $200k. That should have been enough in CA, at least in theory. I looked it up; only 8% of families in America have a higher income.

It was really all about priorities. Sometimes my husband and I would talk about buying a house or moving to a bigger apartment. Then we'd look at the Bay Area prices and reflect on what we would have to give up. We valued our free time so we lived close to work where housing prices were especially high, higher than we could afford. I remember one time we went to look at a 2 bedroom, 1 bath house that was for sale across the street from us in Albany; it was $750k, and not that much bigger than our apartment. We ran the numbers and they were shocking.

We had higher priorities. We didn't want our kid to go into debt with student loans, so we paid her way through college. We paid for her music lessons. We saved for retirement and helped our relatives. We traveled. We paid off student loans. We had no debt; during two periods of extended unemployment, we lived simply but adequately because we had savings to tide us through.

The problem with the Bay Area was that it forced us to make a choice between the lesser of two evils. We could have more space but only if we spent a huge amount of income on housing. We could take care of responsibilities, with enough cash for emergencies and a luxury or two, but only if we compromised on housing. When we were younger we wondered how others could afford to buy. We wondered what we were doing wrong. We wanted to get out of our little apartment quite badly, but the numbers didn't add up. Later we learned the truth; out friends couldn't afford those houses. Many went bankrupt. Their kids were saddled with big college loans.

I don't regret not buying a house in the Bay Area; I feel fortunate that we resisted temptation. I do regret that I dragged my heels on relocating outside of CA. Living here, we live well AND we have a great house.

Paperback Writer, your story is such a load of BS. You spent 25 YEARS in the Bay Area and had an income up to 200k and could never afford a house and stayed in a 800sf apartment?

Just sounds like stupid planning to me. Albany/El Cerrito/Berkeley was totally affordable through the mid 1990s. You should be in the East Bay with a paid off house and a $1000 prop 13 yearly tax bill by now instead of living in WV.

Paperback Writer says

The problem with the Bay Area was that it forced us to make a choice between the lesser of two evils. We could have more space but only if we spent a huge amount of income on housing. We could take care of responsibilities, with enough cash for emergencies and a luxury or two, but only if we compromised on housing. When we were younger we wondered how others could afford to buy. We wondered what we were doing wrong. We wanted to get out of our little apartment quite badly, but the numbers didn't add up. Later we learned the truth; out friends couldn't afford those houses. Many went bankrupt. Their kids were saddled with big college loans.

Oh BS! 30 years ago my FIL bought a 2400sf house in Orinda on his single middle class salary and paid it off in 10 years. He has tons of money in savings, a paid off condo in Danville with a transferred tax bill of less than $1000 a YEAR. I don't know a single person that was an adult in the Bay Area 30 years ago that doesn't have a nearly paid off house (or paid off), low prop taxes, and that didn't benefit greatly from the bubble that happened.

Poor planning. Bummer. But don't blame it on living in the Bay Area!

Paperback Writer says

My fears about leaving California did not turn out to be true. Our quality of life is better. In California we coexisted with a random bunch of people on our street who spoke different languages and whom we never got to know no matter how many years went by. We live in a community now.

Congratulations! You found your home. Much of what you've written here, though, is generalization. In fact, I would argue that to truly have a "Mayberry" experience you'll need to live in Manhattan or San Francisco. The liquor store, the grocery store, and the convenience store one block from where I live are all family-owned. I know all the owners and they know me and my family. It was the same in my last place in San Francisco. When I visit my parents in rural Colorado, people there mostly shop at Wal-Mart, or similar.

I would write much of what you've written, but about San Francisco.

Maybe Patrick likes earthquakes?