patrick.net

Paperback Writer says

The problem with the Bay Area was that it forced us to make a choice between the lesser of two evils. We could have more space but only if we spent a huge amount of income on housing. We could take care of responsibilities, with enough cash for emergencies and a luxury or two, but only if we compromised on housing. When we were younger we wondered how others could afford to buy. We wondered what we were doing wrong. We wanted to get out of our little apartment quite badly, but the numbers didn't add up. Later we learned the truth; out friends couldn't afford those houses. Many went bankrupt. Their kids were saddled with big college loans.

Oh BS! 30 years ago my FIL bought a 2400sf house in Orinda on his single middle class salary and paid it off in 10 years. He has tons of money in savings, a paid off condo in Danville with a transferred tax bill of less than $1000 a YEAR. I don't know a single person that was an adult in the Bay Area 30 years ago that doesn't have a nearly paid off house (or paid off), low prop taxes, and that didn't benefit greatly from the bubble that happened.

Poor planning. Bummer. But don't blame it on living in the Bay Area!

Paperback Writer says

My fears about leaving California did not turn out to be true. Our quality of life is better. In California we coexisted with a random bunch of people on our street who spoke different languages and whom we never got to know no matter how many years went by. We live in a community now.

Congratulations! You found your home. Much of what you've written here, though, is generalization. In fact, I would argue that to truly have a "Mayberry" experience you'll need to live in Manhattan or San Francisco. The liquor store, the grocery store, and the convenience store one block from where I live are all family-owned. I know all the owners and they know me and my family. It was the same in my last place in San Francisco. When I visit my parents in rural Colorado, people there mostly shop at Wal-Mart, or similar.

I would write much of what you've written, but about San Francisco.

Maybe Patrick likes earthquakes?

Paperback Writer says

For much of this time, my husband and I had a combined income of $200k. That should have been enough in CA, at least in theory.

Paperback Writer says

The problem with the Bay Area was that it forced us to make a choice between the lesser of two evils. We could have more space but only if we spent a huge amount of income on housing.

Yep. B*llsh*t.

There's been lotsa places that are affordable for a household income of 200K. Even for those can't stand to live around regular folks and insist on Enclaves for Hipsters and Fortress Enclaves for Tiger Parents that genuflect to API Diety.

Maybe SFAce, a numbers guy, can chime in here and "run the numbers" to prove it.

Tude says

I don't know a single person that was an adult in the Bay Area 30 years ago that doesn't have a nearly paid off house (or paid off), low prop taxes, and that didn't benefit greatly from the bubble that happened.

Tude, I know folks around here like that.

I also know folks around here in that demographic who did not do so well "cashing in on the equity" for all sorts of reasons running the gamut of medical bills and tuition to conspicuous consumption.

Also, I really don't like the fact that bankers and government (both Dem and Rep) are in a giant conspiracy against the public to get them into as much mortgage debt as possible.

Thats such Bullshit... for gods sake, did you ever try telling people .. buyers who were overbidding, overpaying they were nuts ! High home prices were not sustainable in the long run. Even when you try to explain that CA prices fell from 1989 to mid 90s, the same buyers were in denial.

No! many had crazy ideas that it was the norm home prices never fall and appreciate double digit indefinitly.

We have a society which doesnt take responsibility for their own actions... how pathetic.

See video below... Shiller states 'one third believed homes would appreciate 50% due to new reality'

http://www.youtube.com/embed/d__GPqOVNbE&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLE56D69691F1F2C13

Bay Area simply too special to leave. I myself have landed here and not planning to move out after living in different parts of the world. Great weather, lots of high paying jobs, diverse population. While I am renting, I could possibly buy comfortably, I am still sitting on the fence. All thanks to Patrick.net.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Paperback Writer says

The problem with the Bay Area was that it forced us to make a choice between the lesser of two evils. We could have more space but only if we spent a huge amount of income on housing.
Yep. B*llsh*t.
There's been lotsa places that are affordable for a household income of 200K. Even for those can't stand to live around regular folks and insist on Enclaves for Hipsters and Fortress Enclaves for Tiger Parents that genuflect to API Diety.
Maybe SFAce, a numbers guy, can chime in here and "run the numbers" to prove it.

How would I know. Paperback already said their priority is to pay:

1) College 100%
2) Lessons
3) Retirement
4) Travel
5) Savings/Rainy Day fund
6) Relatives first

200K is about 130K after tax. That is still limited resouce. If those are the priorties, it doesn't leave much for housing. 2/1 700K in albany in 2006 would not make sense, but anything prior to (2002) was probably affordable.

My mom afforded her home on near minimum wage raising three kids (20-40K income between 1992-current), Now it is worth 700K with no mortgage. Home was her #1 priority. As far as I'm concerned 200K income in 1990 could have easily bought in prime Palo Alto worth 1.7M today.

SFace says

Now it is worth 700K with no mortgage.

like hell. you are still living the california bubble dream. nice credit card logo. as if.

Opamp says

Bay Area simply too special to leave. I myself have landed here and not planning to move out after living in different parts of the world. Great weather, lots of high paying jobs, diverse population. While I am renting, I could possibly buy comfortably, I am still sitting on the fence. All thanks to Patrick.net.

do not worry. you will get your tit in the wringer soon enough. all thanks to tru believers!!!

Paperback Writer says

My husband and I are able to telecommute, and this is what made everything possible. I'm not saying it's for everyone, but if your work is portable like ours, quality of life issues are something to consider.

Paperback Writer says

Then we'd look at the Bay Area prices and reflect on what we would have to give up. We valued our free time so we lived close to work where housing prices were especially high, higher than we could afford.

Hmm....

My fears about leaving California did not turn out to be true. Our quality of life is better. In California we coexisted with a random bunch of people on our street who spoke different languages and whom we never got to know no matter how many years went by. We live in a community now. We see the kids in our new neighborhood trick-or-treating and riding bikes; they wave and say hello. People visit, share produce from their gardens, take turns mowing lawns. The librarian knows my name and goes the extra mile to help me get books; the postman knows my name and is similarly helpful. I have made more friends here in a month than in years in the Bay Area.

There are plenty of places in bay area where all of the above is true and more, except maybe the languages part.

I left Marin after struggling for 5 years. Like many, I thought that Norcal was the greatest place in the U.S. Three years later, I am happy to say that leaving the Bay Area was the best decision I've ever made. Housing here in Hawaii is cheaper...yes cheaper. Sure, gas and food are about 20% more expensive, but rent is about a third of what I paid in Marin. I once paid $1650 to rent a 650 square foot apartment in the most dank, fog-ridden block in Mill Valley. Today, I drop $1000/mo for a beautiful 3 bedroom house on acreage with ocean and country views. Good riddance to the 415...alohas.

Personally I like living on a street with people from different areas around the world. They have some very interesting stories. I came from a Midwestern town where almost all families had lived there for a few generations, so it's quite different. Both have their own appeal, but I prefer the mix here.

And yet my own rent is less than $3K/month and the asking price for similar places is about $2M in my neighborhood. Seriously.

I'd move just to get away from the speed bumps. Don't know how you can stand them.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Paperback Writer says

For much of this time, my husband and I had a combined income of $200k. That should have been enough in CA, at least in theory.

Paperback Writer says

The problem with the Bay Area was that it forced us to make a choice between the lesser of two evils. We could have more space but only if we spent a huge amount of income on housing.

Yep. B*llsh*t.

There's been lotsa places that are affordable for a household income of 200K. Even for those can't stand to live around regular folks and insist on Enclaves for Hipsters and Fortress Enclaves for Tiger Parents that genuflect to API Diety.

Maybe SFAce, a numbers guy, can chime in here and "run the numbers" to prove it.

Actually, it's probably true for Paperback Writer's situation. I don't know if after tax 200K is 130K, more like 110K-120K (assuming AMT etc) and wasn't tax higher during Clinton's period? And, 200K consistently for past 25 years?! In addition, ones' willingness to spend on vacation/food are not necessarily the same as others who are more readily to spend on house. Maybe, the satisfaction gained from having a house just doesn't measure up to the money spent for Paperback Writer.

I don't know what price range in terms of house Paperback Writer was considering buying and was in a location that would not compromise their life styles. But, I could comment on what we think since we haven't bought one yet ... everything we look, any that's decent and move-in ready is probably around 700K - 800K (half a century old house at San Carlos, I'm avoiding the prime areas but east bay is out of questions for us bcos of the commute (not so much on the length but BART is not as convenient as caltrain for me) ... and I work in SF while my husband works in Santa Clara). That will translate into a monthly payment of 4K+. We do not have kids, but if we plan to have two kids, that will be additional 3K daycare every month. To maintain reasonable life style, I think we need to have 5K (including saving, after all, one can't live paycheck by paycheck) every month after all those expense. In short, if we want to buy a house that we consider worthwhile, i.e. 700-800K, we need to make $15K after tax every month (not counting bonus as there are always unexpected spending). That will be at very least a base salary of $150K each. So, for us, an annual income of 350K would indicate 700K house as the affordability line. So, index the current 200K to earlier times against inflation, I don't know what would be the alternatives for her after all her priorities.

SparrowBell says

any that's decent and move-in ready is probably around 700K - 800K

It depends on what you consider "decent".

We live in a neighborhood that Hipsters and techie immigrants would probably sneer at, but where a couple of years my oldest kid got accept to all the UC's she applied to except UCB and UCLA, even though she went to K-12 that did not have the "elite" API's that so many yuppies/techies worship. Several classmates of hers did go to Berkely/UCLA though, and a handful to Ivies/Stanford/Cal Tech; so I cannot blame the K-12 for holding back my kid.

It's OK to live around Hispanics and it's OK if your kids don't go to the most elite API score K-12. Just need to be open minded about the ethnicity of your neighbors, and pay very close attention to the opportunities offered by the K-12's. Just looking at the API is a cop-out.

PockyClipsNow says

I didnt see sunlight for 6 weeks in Austin in winter - mind cannot comprehend how that is possible but crappy weather is the norm in the world.

Try living downwind (southeast) of the Great Lakes in the winter. You won't see sunlight for 6 MONTHS ;-)

But hey, at least I'm not a debt serf like I would be in CA.

I moved out from the Bay Area in late 09 and bought my home in Sacramento in 2010. I don't miss the bay at all except on those super hot summer days, but I'm close enough to the Sierra that we can escape just as easy. My mortgage is almost under 200k and I just refinanced to 3.875, so I now pay less for it than I paid for my last apartment in Santa Clara. Anything decent down there would be double the price easily

PockyClipsNow says

Also the mexican food in TX is crap by CA standards. How in the hell that can that happen with a high hispanic population? Tex-Mex. its crap. They replace the good parts with chili and corn, blah. just a rant. BBQ there is top notch though so it evens out.

I have lived in Austin, ABQ and SF Bay Area. I have to say that you just weren't eating in the right places if you didn't like the Tex-Mex or Mexican. So many choices. Authentic, trendy, open all hours. Did you ever eat at Chuy's? More on the trendy side, but awesome food.

toothfairy says

Renting

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/apa/2815195851.html

Here is another. That makes 2. I can find at least 1 a day on craigslist with a simple search. When I was looking to rent about 2 years ago there were many that I checked out, not just one.

The problem in your thinking is that people should put in great effort when renting money, but should not shop around when renting a house. To me they should be the same effort.

And another 1m+ home for rent at half. Just saying...

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/apa/2811580914.html