patrick.net

To me this is more or less anti secularist propaganda.

I have a problem with religion influencing curriculum, or kids being forced to pray. But allowing a banner on the wall, that has a positive message (yes religious), that was put there probably by some Christian club or other local group back in the 60s?

What ever happened to tolerance ?

Yes there should be tolerance for the atheist girl that wants the banner down. But if some super high majority (say over 95%) of the community doesn't have a problem with the banner, then it a shame that it has to come down by law,even if the ruling is understandable. And therefore the perception of the girl as sort of a jerk, isn't really surprising at all.

Dan8267 says

the local Christians threaten to kill her forcing the local police to escort the girl during school.

Right. All of the Christians threatened to kill her, not just a few crackpots.

I don't see what the big deal is. That "prayer" is so generic that any Monotheist could agree with it. "Heavenly Father" could mean the god of Mormonism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, or any monothistic religion. The prayer doesn't mention any specifically Christian doctrine.

Still, I can't help but agree that having a prayer banner in a public school is inviting "establishment clause" issues.

Dan8267 says

America is not a theocracy. If you want to live in a theocracy, there are plenty to choose from in the Middle East.

Right, a generic prayer to a generic monotheistic diety in a public school makes America a theocracy. Please.

Make sure the school doesn't show the Star Wars movies, since those movies envoke "the force."

I think that we as good people. Like most everyday people. Struggle with the situations thrown at us. Perpatrated on us. It shows that we aren't stupid. Especially the people on this board for the most part. Thats why I hang here.

The only "wrong" is what is done by people that spew fear and other things ment to keep us in line everyday. Deal is you can go anywhere and there is never any danger. Thats the reality of it. Anyone able to socialize with anyone in any community in a city knows that.

Sit still. While they "steal" and take everything not nailed down. Keeping you at work for very little.

Its not nessesarly about Amagedon. Nor is it about religion. Nope whats behind it is stealing. The people that "work" all of this love to steal. Everything the people on the streets with signs are screaming about is stealing. They got screwed. Jobs taken. Lost everything they had. That they so loyally worked for.

Division is one more thing that keeps you from getting at those people. The earth was ment for everyone for the most part. Order, "religion", government of the division of people works really well for them. Ie: if your fighting each other. Well heck I'll just go on an have a good day. While I leave watching the dust fly in the air from the fight. The division is manufactured every single day. Be aware of it.

My question is: If they "did not" bring up the divisions every single fucking minute of every day. Would not everyone be walking down the sidewalk side by side talking. With no differences?

thomas.wong1986 says

PREAMBLE

Has no legal force.
thomas.wong1986 says

The school board had the option of removing the four words, but decided not to. Many Cranston residents protested the idea of changing what has been part of the high school since the early '60s. For now, the school has covered the banner with plywood and a school flag.

You want religious training? Send your kinds to Sunday (or Saturday) Brainwashing. My tax dollars shouldn't go to worshipping the invisible man in the sky. People are free to be stupid with their own money,on their own time.
thomas.wong1986 says

"What an evil little thing. Poor thing," he told local talk radio station WPRO. "And it's not her fault. She's being ... trained to be like that."

What an ass-turd politician. But I repeat myself. If it was a stained glass window from 1490 I could see it being kept as a historical/cultural item. 1962 is hardly an ancient fixture of cultural value, being well within the lifetime of a good chunk of the population. You could make the same argument for the lazy susan sitting on top of the cabinet in the home ec classroom.

wthrfrk80 says

Right, a generic prayer to a generic monotheistic diety in a public school makes America a theocracy. Please.

What if you worship the Earth Mother? Or are a Hindu? Or Taoist? Or Buddhist?

wthrfrk80 says

Make sure the school doesn't show the Star Wars movies, since those movies envoke "the force."

A fictional impersonal source of power, like Magic or "Qi" Kung Fu/Ninja leaping. If there was a banner encouraging kids to "Use the Force and Meditate, and give thanks to Yoda in order to do well in school", that would be something else.

thunderlips11 says

A fictional impersonal source of power, like Magic or "Qi" Kung Fu/Ninja leaping. If there was a banner encouraging kids to "Use the Force and Meditate, and give thanks to Yoda in order to do well in school", that would be something else.

Isn't that what most religion boils down to?

Kevin says

thomas.wong1986 says

Whats the issue you see here ?

A 16 year old girl is getting death threats and you don't see the issue?

And that's a large part of the problem. If a Muslim made a death threat against a Christian, they would all be up in arms.

marcus says

I wonder what percentage of the Christians in the community sent death threats or approved of them ?

Sent: definitely a small percentage of the community.
Approved: definitely a large percentage of the community based on the community's treatment towards the girl.

There's a lot of hate and xenophobia in Christianity even today. All outsiders are considered threats. The only reason the Christians in America aren't as violent as the Muslims in the Middle East is that they can't get away with it in America. Heck, Muslims in America are less violent than Christians in America.

wthrfrk80 says

Right. All of the Christians threatened to kill her, not just a few crackpots.

That's a Straw Man argument. I'm not arguing that all the Christians threatened to kill her. I'm arguing that religion has caused a community to attack an innocent girl, who is absolutely correct about the law, and a few even went as far as to make death threats, which is a very serious issue. For religion to drive even a few people to do these things shows how powerful a force for evil religion is. And it's not just other people's religions.

The bottom line is that no defender of religion can deny the facts of these articles. So they try to sweep the issue under the rug. But that's not right either. There's a lesson to be learned here, and it's "the religious are not tolerant of others and often become violent when their power is threatened". The only way to protect society from religious crazies is to take away the power of religion all together. Religion causes people to do bad things, and this incident along with countless others proves it.

I have yet to hear of a single incident in which a community of atheists have threatened or tried to punish a person for being a monotheist.

wthrfrk80 says

Dan8267 says

America is not a theocracy. If you want to live in a theocracy, there are plenty to choose from in the Middle East.

Right, a generic prayer to a generic monotheistic diety in a public school makes America a theocracy. Please.

Another Straw Man argument. My comment clearly was directly responding to your implied argument that the Constitution of the State of Rhode Island makes Christianity or monotheism a state-sponsored religion. I stand by my argument that you are incorrect in suggesting this conclusion.

marcus says

And therefore the perception of the girl as sort of a jerk, isn't really surprising at all.

And if it had been an Islamic banner? Or a Hindu banner? Or an atheist banner? Or a Goatse banner? Or god forbid, a Wiccan witchcraft banner? In this country, we are all equal under law, like it or not. To selectively enforce a law only against certain groups (blacks, Hispanics, atheists, Muslims) is a form of bigotry and discrimination and as such violates the equal protection clause of the Constitution.

The only jerks are the ones who said bad things about the girl or threatened her.

wthrfrk80 says

Make sure the school doesn't show the Star Wars movies, since those movies envoke "the force."

The school can put up a prayer banner, when I can put up banners showing how Jesus was no god and all the myths about him are rip-offs from older myths, and when I as Valedictorian can give a speech about why there is no god and all religions are frauds. It ain't freedom of speech if the majority gets to control what can be said.

thunderlips11 says

You want religious training? Send your kinds to Sunday (or Saturday) Brainwashing. My tax dollars shouldn't go to worshipping the invisible man in the sky. People are free to be stupid with their own money,on their own time.

Absolutely, this school's charter should be revoked on account of this. Then let the religious put their money where their mouths are.

Dan8267 says

The only reason the Christians in America aren't as violent as the Muslims in the Middle East is that they can't get away with it in America. Heck, Muslims in America are less violent than Christians in America.

Therefore being a Christaian nation means we are much much more civilized nation.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2061842/Mohammad-Shafia-murdered-daughter-honour-killing-said-hed-again.html

'I would do it again 100 times': Muslim father 'murdered his THREE daughters in honour killing for dating wrong boys'
Mohammad Shafia 'spoke to second wife about "treacherous" daughters'

Both standing trial in Ontario with son, charged with first degree murder
Gruesome video footage of submerged car where they were found is shown

Afghani father felt 'ashamed' that eldest daughter had married Pakistani boy Shafia, 58, had seven children in total with wife Tooba Yahya, 41

Dan8267 says

The only way to protect society from religious crazies is to take away the power of religion all together. Religion causes people to do bad things, and this incident along with countless others proves it.

How do you propose to do that? People like religion. Almost as much as they like porn.

Dan8267 says

I'm not arguing that all the Christians threatened to kill her.

Then your headline should have read, "a few Christians send death threats to a 16 year old girl"

http://www.youtube.com/embed/nIJlJkJE7go

Want my opinion?

UN sees possible crimes against humanity in Syria

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_SYRIA?SITE=WHAS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=home.html&CTIME=2012-02-16-16-04-03

Really, Really, Really late breaking news.

thomas.wong1986 says

Therefore being a Christaian nation means we are much much more civilized nation.

Correction: Being a technologically and scientifically advanced nation means we are much, much more civilized.

Every social and political reform has been preceded by a scientific or technological advancement. This is not coincidence. Technology and scientific understanding drives social and political advancement.

Printing Press - Protestant Reformations that ended the Catholic Church's stranglehold on Europe.

Age of Enlightenment - Revolutions against monarchies and establishment of republics like the U.S.

The Industrial Revolution - The end of slavery in almost every nation.

Radio - Women's Rights to Vote, 40 hour work week, safety standards, end of child labor, and other progressive movements.

Television - Anti-war culture, civil rights for all races

Computers / Internet - Arab Spring

In contrast, Christianity hasn't accomplish jack diddley shit.

wthrfrk80 says

How do you propose to do that?

Promote a culture of knowledge and reason.

wthrfrk80 says

Then your headline should have read, "a few Christians send death threats to a 16 year old girl"

You're missing the point. The whole community is guilty of creating a culture of fear, conformity, and xenophobia that lead to those death threats. The whole community is responsible.

Big picture.

ArtimusMaxtor says

Want my opinion?

That video reminds me of a lunch conversation I had with coworkers yesterday. One of my coworkers knows a lot of military contractors including ones that worked for Blackwater. He was describing the way the military/defense contracting industry works.

He said that only cannon fodder goes to Iraq. The real veteran mercenaries get jobs protecting oil shipments and CEOs, which pays way more than fighting in Iraq and is a lot safer.

Technology is no gaurantee of peace and civility. Technology can be used as a tool for "good" and "evil." Technology is just the tool for the job.

A lot of technological advancement occurs from warfare and the need to out-gun, out-innovate, and out-build the "enemy"

Metallurgy: the need for better and stronger weapons

Steam ships: the need for a more powerful navy

Space program: came from fear of the Russians winning the "space race"

Nuclear Fission: came from the race to build the atomic bomb

Internet, Computers, GPS, weather forecasting: much of the technology developed for the military

wthrfrk80 says

Technology is no gaurantee of peace and civility.

No one ever said it was. What I said is that over the long course of history, scientific and technological advancement, not religion, has spurred all of the social and political advancements while, if anything, religion has held back society. I stand by that statement, not the one you made.

Truth of it. I just think the girl dosen't like seeing her friends lied to. Like I said you can believe anything you want to believe out here. Worship a squirrel. The squirrel isn't going to care. God dosen't. The neighbors may think your eating mushrooms.

But doping an entire population with nonesense. Like were good and they are bad. Is obviously waaaay beyond reality.

They just need to say it. Hey we want something there it is we are going to take it. That would incur the wrath of a lot of people however. They just can't afford to do that. So one must be portrayed as good, harmless and humane. Otherwise they couldn't do what they do again, again and again and get away with it. In my opinion. Just about everyone but the minorities in charge have had enough.

Dan8267 says

There's a lesson to be learned here, and it's "the religious are not tolerant of others and often become violent when their power is threatened".

I agree the lesson is about religious tolerance.

Here is what the girl says: "I was really taken aback and a little bit hurt by it because it is entitled 'School Prayer,'" Ahlquist says. "It really does kind of make you feel like you don't belong if you don't believe in a heavenly father."

I see she has about as much common sense as the usual atheist of the extremist variety. She did it because she wanted to feel like she belongs. Right.

More like she saw a button and she had to press it.

Dan8267 says

marcus says

I wonder what percentage of the Christians in the community sent death threats or approved of them ?

Sent: definitely a small percentage of the community.
Approved: definitely a large percentage of the community based on the community's treatment towards the girl.

I think it would be easy to see her as a bit of a jerk, without at all condoning the death threats. In fact I see her as a bit of a jerk, and I don't particularly love the idea of having that prayer banner on the wall.

If I was going to fight it, in her shoes, I would have just brought the idea up at the student council, or some other group venue, and see if I could get some support for the idea of taking it down. IF there was a lot of strong objection, then I would back down. IT's not that big of a deal, and besides, it's a positive message.

Only the super religious type of atheist is going to make a big issue of this.

Let's say there's a group of 5 college students and they say let's smoke some weed and get high. But one of them doesn't want to, and objects
to the others doing it. What should he do ?

Should he say live and let live, even though he feels the others are hurting themselves, in a few ways, and just leave them to do their thing ?

Or should he report them to the police, for their own good, and get them arrested. Certainly the law would back him up on that if he did.

I say if he has them busted he's being a jerk, even if he strongly disapproves of that behavior, he doesn't have to impose his ego and his values on them to that degree.

I say a guy who does that is a jerk. Likewise I think the girl is a bit of a jerk.

Let the people have their banner with the positive message that's slightly religious in a general way. You can be their friend even if they are different than you. But because they are very much in the majority, yeah, you can either tolerate their behavior that you don't agree with, or you can take a stand that will turn them off to you.

Jesus says

Mathew 6:5-6
5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

The point: none of these Christians are Christians. If they were they'd do what Jesus tells them and we'd not be bothered by their nonsense.

Dan8267 says

Correction: Being a technologically and scientifically advanced nation means we are much, much more civilized.

Nope long long before that ...

Dan8267 says

if anything, religion has held back society. I stand by that statement, not the one you made.

You do realize the many European settlers who only had faith in GOD brought them to the new world. It wasnt technology, but faith and their religion that brought them here. Was that a move backward or holding society back. NO! And add to that the migration into the west.. all based on faith in God.

And not that long ago explores to the moon quoted the bible...I dont see anyone suing NASA or Apollo crew back in the 1960s for quoting the Bible or seperation of church and state. .

These great human achievements and faith in God is something to be proud of.. It make you proud being an American .. it makes you proud being a Christian.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/AFqnZaja7us

wthrfrk80 says

A lot of technological advancement occurs from warfare and the need to out-gun, out-innovate, and out-build the "enemy"

Read or watch James Burke Connections ( see the TV episodes on YouTube). Add in the Day the Universe Changed.
It wasnt all warfare related and many warfare innovation came from normal day to day ideas.

Kevin says

A 16 year old girl is getting death threats and you don't see the issue?
Personally, I don't really give a damn what myths stupid people want to believe, but they have no place in any taxpayer funded institution

She is thin skinned and WILL NOT make it in the real world if something like 4 dinky years of High School gets under her skin.

At this point she needs to focus on more important things that will enhance here life.. like education.

marcus says

I think it would be easy to see her as a bit of a jerk

So, she's a jerk for standing up for her rights? Is a Christian a jerk for insisting that he be allowed to go to church? Is an African American a jerk for insisting that his vote be counted in an election?

No person sticking up for his or her rights under the Constitution is a jerk, especially when doing so causes him or her to be ostracized. She's brave and should admired.

omgbacon says

The point: none of these Christians are Christians. If they were they'd do what Jesus tells them and we'd not be bothered by their nonsense.

As Forest Gump said, "Stupid is as stupid does.". Christians are what Christians do, not what Jesus allegedly told them to do. Jesus is irrelevant. All that matters is what people have done with the faith. Hell, Paul was more important than Jesus in the success of Christianity in brainwashing the masses.

thomas.wong1986 says

You do realize the many European settlers who only had faith in GOD brought them to the new world. It wasnt technology, but faith and their religion that brought them here.

Actually, it was a giant land grab. Two entire continents populated only by easily conquered, less technologically advanced people. God had nothing to do with the Europeans taking over the Americas. If there had been no religion in Europe at all, ever, the Europeans would still have conquered the Americas simply because they could.

Man does not need a god to justify his lust for land and riches. Sure, it helps. But absent a god, man will find other excuses to slaughter the vulnerable and take their land and natural resources.

Dan8267 says

So, she's a jerk for standing up for her rights?

And what right was that ?

The right to have something removed that virtually everyone didn't have a problem with, and that many liked ?

In my example above, the guy who has his friends busted for smoking weed (breaking the law) has the right to do that. Still, he's a jerk for doing it.

Keep in mind, when I say she's a bit of a jerk, I mean that she is to a vast majority of her classmates. And as I said earlier, she could have just brought it up to see if there are others who agree with her.

I don't care for extremism, although I know that on occasions the extremist adds something to a debate.

In my experience there are extremists such as yourself who have above an above average IQ. But I have never known of an extremist who I would consider wise, balanced or worthy of a lot of respect.

thomas.wong1986 says

These great human achievements and faith in God is something to be proud of.. It make you proud being an American .. it makes you proud being a Christian.

The Apollo 8 mission was a product of science, not Christianity. Reciting of Bible passages in space carries no more weight than Yuri Gagarin's quote "I see no god up here.".

marcus says

And what right was that ?

Freedom of religion. In order to have freedom of religion, you have to have freedom from religion. If you don't have the right to say no, than you are not free to choose.

Forcing a Christian prayer on a student should be as offensive as forcing an Islamic or Wiccan prayer on a student. Don't tell me those hypocrites would stand for that.

marcus says

The right to have something removed that virtually everyone didn't have a problem with, and that many liked ?

You mean something like this?

So, if the majority of red necks in a Georgia town wanted the Confederate Navy flag posted in a high school, but the lone black student felt threatened by it, you're attitude would be "fuck you, bro!"? Can't say I agree.

Dan8267 says

Forcing a Christian prayer on a student should be as offensive as forcing an Islamic or Wiccan prayer on a student.

How can that be if only one person has a problem with it ?

marcus says

How can that be if only one person has a problem with it ?

A group of 200 hard-core convicts escape from prison and establish a town in the foothills. One day a lost woman wanders into that down and is viciously gang raped by the 200 townsfolk. Only one person out of the 201 in the town has a problem with this. That's how it can be wrong even if only one person objects.

Dan8267 says

So, if the majority of red necks in a Georgia town wanted the Confederate Navy flag posted in a high school, but the lone black student felt threatened by it, you're attitude would be "fuck you, bro!"? Can't say I agree.

Perfect analogy.

Majority by most definitions means more than half. MY guess is that almost nobody had a problem with that banner. If there were more than one or two, then I would have a different opinion.

There's no point in my arguing this. Your extremism speaks for itself.

Besides, I have work to do.

Dan8267 says

That's how it can be wrong if only one person objects.

Another perfect analogy.

marcus says

Perfect analogy.

Majority by most definitions means more than half. MY guess is that almost nobody had a problem with that banner.

OK, so let's say that none of the white Georgian townsfolk have a problem with the Confederate Navy Jack and all of them like it. It's still wrong, and it's reasonable for the black student to object to it.

Dan8267 says

Your perception of me does not reflect reality. Nor could your mind comprehend my thoughts. It's best you simply accept that you are incapable of understanding me as I can't dumb down me enough for you to understand.

Choice Dan quote.

You're an extremist, and that's a fact.