patrick.net

tatupu70 says

Scagnetti says

Won't your argument stand up to debate?

His argument did. Wong chose to ignore it, as it appears you did.

If you persist in ignoring the facts, no argument, no matter how well presented, will be effective.

Here is the whole of my post that you cut......

Scagnetti says

Kevin says

I feel like having this comment put in jail:

You're a dumb motherfucker.

Ah, ah, ah....that wasn't very polite. I'm surprised your making personal attacks like that!

You can't invalidate an argument through personal attacks. Won't your argument stand up to debate?

That question was in response to his personal attack. If the argument is well laid out, no personal attacks are necessary. Those type of attacks are reserved for when someone can no longer effectively argue their point and they have nothing left but name calling. Please see my above post about trying to stifle debate by accusations and "name calling".

Scagnetti says

Those type of attacks are reserved for when someone can no longer effectively argue their point and they have nothing left but name calling. Please see my above post about trying to stifle debate by accusations and "name calling".

Again--that assumes the other party in the discussion is arguing in good faith and listening to your points. If not, then the whole back and forth is useless and frustrating. Kevin's points were well laid out. Don't you agree?

tatupu70 says

Scagnetti says

Those type of attacks are reserved for when someone can no longer effectively argue their point and they have nothing left but name calling. Please see my above post about trying to stifle debate by accusations and "name calling".

Again--that assumes the other party in the discussion is arguing in good faith and listening to your points. If not, then the whole back and forth is useless and frustrating. Kevin's points were well laid out. Don't you agree?

Whether someone is directly engaging and refuting a persons arguments, facts, and figures with their own or not, I still don't see a reason to hurl vulgarities at them. It weakens your own position.

Lets be honest! It's a steep mountain to climb to overcome someone's predetermined opinion! It can be frustrating but it's not pointless. The best you normally can do, is to try to put the slightest amount of doubt in their mind. It's wishful thinking to assume that person is going to say "You're right, I was wrong". Also, keep in mind, there are many viewers who aren't participating in the discussion that are forming judgments themselves from OUR arguments.

Kevin has came up with some facts and figures that are interesting. I could argue against some of them if I wished. It's not my intent to prove that a group is the "most" or the "least" anything. I want to challenge some of the assumptions that have been ingrained in us.

Kevin says

I feel like having this comment put in jail:

You're a dumb motherfucker.

I don't quite get it. You want me to delete that comment and stop you from posting for a day?

Kevin says

I feel like having this comment put in jail:

You're a dumb motherfucker.

I don't quite get it. You want me to delete that comment and stop you from posting for a day?

I just had to say what I was thinking.

Kev - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Black_Caucus_of_State_Legislators

http://www.nlc.org/build-skills-networks/networks/constituency-groups/nbc-leo

One more for the record...but don't you go hurling any bad language my way!!

Honest Abe says

Kev - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Black_Caucus_of_State_Legislators

Honest Abe says

http://www.nlc.org/build-skills-networks/networks/constituency-groups/nbc-leo

One more for the record...but don't you go hurling any bad language my way!!

It's really all about a groups "racial consciousness". Non-whites are allowed and encouraged to have it. Whites are not. See the below example.

kentm says

Jeremy says

Straight white males between the ages of 18 and 54. As far as I can tell, this is the only group of Americans that can not form a group to promote themselves or their own advancement within American society. Am I wrong?

By the way, boo-f'ing-hoo. Practically every single private club in the country was Straight white males between the ages of 18 and 54 until a few years ago.

Scagnetti says

It's really all about a groups "racial consciousness". Non-whites are allowed and encouraged to have it. Whites are not.

Although this wasn't always so. There was a time when whites had a very strong sense of racial consciousness. Current views about race touted by the media and the education system are in direct opposition to the views whites had up until about the 1950's - 60's.

They believed people differed in temperament, ability, intelligence, and the type of societies they lived in. They also believed races should be separated socially and politically.

Sound familiar? IT SHOULD! Minorities pursue strictly "racial policies and agendas" all the time this day and age!

Why are we obsessed with skin color? Who cares?

Or are we hard-wired to fight based on skin color?

It's a known fact that you can't put two pet gerbils in the same cage if the gerbils don't recognize each other's scent. If you do, the gerbils will fight to the death.

I guess humans aren't that much different.

The funny thing is this: liberals and people of color still demand concessions based on skin color alone, where as others want to judge people by their skills, and content of their character, not by the color of their skin.

Which group's are practicing racism?

Honest Abe says

The funny thing is this: liberals and people of color still demand concessions based on skin color alone, where as others want to judge people by their skills, and content of their character, not by the color of their skin.

Which group's are practicing racism?

+1....Where did all the naysayers go Abe?

Kevin says

Claiming that white males are marginalized at all -- nevermind "the most marginalized" is fucking ridiculous. It could only be the attitude of a white male who's never known any real hardship in his life.

I'm not sure about the word marginalized but.........

Doesn't the chart below show the increased belief of discrimination against whites? Does the survey show that BLACKS think that whites are more discriminated against now then before?
Does the chart show that blacks are believed to be less discriminated now then before by both blacks and whites?

Sure--racial bias is decreasing. I don't think anyone is arguing that point.

Honest Abe says

The funny thing is this: liberals and people of color still demand concessions based on skin color alone

For the most part people of color that are the least bit concerned about making their way through out the world with out feeling like someone owes them a shinning path, are not in this group. And there are plenty of people of color that fall into this category. They look for the nearest exit every time this topic comes up.
As for people of color pulling the race card, they have every right to, in a world where everyone is looking for a leg up. At least they are ingenious about it.

I have no Eph'n Idea what in hell the white Liberals motives are. It damn sure isn't to make a better life for the people of color. If they had their way, the Liberals would like to keep them quarantined in the Red line district as far away from the liberal award winning schools as possible. And the more dependent on social services, then the more jobs can be created for those with a degree in Liberal arts, they obtained from their supperior "Good School District".

This reality is the Only goddamn "Transparency" in the whole damn country.

I am tired of ivory tower academics lumping the Irish race in with "white". The Irish are a distinct race and species from modern humans. The are the lowest of the low, below Plains Savages, Pygmies, and French Men.

I dare say most of the "whites" facing discrimination are tainted with Irish blood. If such is the case, I say, "Huzzah!"

tatupu70 says

Sure--racial bias is decreasing. I don't think anyone is arguing that point.

Gee.....that's strange! I could have swore it was you who said this.

tatupu70 says

If you persist in ignoring the facts, no argument, no matter how well presented, will be effective.

Scagnetti says

Kevin says

Claiming that white males are marginalized at all -- nevermind "the most marginalized" is fucking ridiculous. It could only be the attitude of a white male who's never known any real hardship in his life.

I'm not sure about the word marginalized but.........

Doesn't the chart below show the increased belief of discrimination against whites? Does the survey show that BLACKS think that whites are more discriminated against now then before?

Does the chart show that blacks are believed to be less discriminated now then before by both blacks and whites?

People being less racist is not an indication of marginalization of white people, unless you believe that white people are being marginalized if they can't be racist or something.

White males ARE the mainstream, primary element in the united states (i.e. the exact opposite of a "marginalized" group). Calling us "marginalized" is so fucking ridiculous I don't even know where to begin.

Kevin says

People being less racist is not an indication of marginalization of white people, unless you believe that white people are being marginalized if they can't be racist or something.

White males ARE the mainstream, primary element in the united states (i.e. the exact opposite of a "marginalized" group). Calling us "marginalized" is so fucking ridiculous I don't even know where to begin.

Wait a second here folks...

#1 - I never used the word "marginalize". You did. I used the word discrimination.

#2 - Look at the chart again. It shows an increase, yes that's right ladies and gentlemen, an increase in discrimination AGAINST white people. I REPEAT an INCREASE! Whites believe they are more discriminated against then in the past. Blacks also believe whites are more discriminated against then in the past. Once again, the chart shows an INCREASE of discrimination AGAINST whites.

And yes, it also shows that there is less anti-black bias as well.

@Kevin & tatupu70

Here is some information that will be helpful for now and in the future!

-A graph is a picture of information.
-There are three main elements in a graph.
1)the y axis
2)the x axis
3)at least one line or set of bars
-To understand the graph, do the following
1)read the labels and range of numbers on the x and y axis
2)find the trend(s) formed by the line(s) or set of bar(s)

To start you off on the right foot I will interpret the above graph for you!

-Whites think that anti black bias has significantly went down the last 50 years.
-Blacks think that anti black bias has significantly went down the last 50 years.
-Whites think that anti white bias has significantly went up the last 50 years.
-Blacks think that anti white bias has somewhat went up the last 50 years.

Well, since you are being so helpful, I guess I will join in and aid in your understanding.

This statement:

tatupu70 says

Sure--racial bias is decreasing. I don't think anyone is arguing that point.

Is NOT the same as this statement:

tatupu70 says

If you persist in ignoring the facts, no argument, no matter how well presented, will be effective.

So, while I did post both of them, they are in no way contradictory.

Does that help? Let me know if you need a more detailed explanation!

tatupu70 says

Well, since you are being so helpful, I guess I will join in and aid in your understanding.

This statement:

tatupu70 says

Sure--racial bias is decreasing. I don't think anyone is arguing that point.

Is NOT the same as this statement:

tatupu70 says

If you persist in ignoring the facts, no argument, no matter how well presented, will be effective.

So, while I did post both of them, they are in no way contradictory.

Does that help? Let me know if you need a more detailed explanation!

Here is a recap.

-I post a graph showing increasing anti-white bias and decreasing anti-black bias.
-You say "Sure--racial bias is decreasing. I don't think anyone is arguing that point."
-I point out that you are ignoring the facts presented in the chart.

You ignored the fact that anti white bias is on the rise according to that study. You had previously complained about people ignoring facts. You just ignored the facts yourself. You can't have it both ways tatupu70!

It's probably natural that as the number (and percentage) of non whites in the population increases, that "white people" would simultaneously be more accepting ( discriminate less), but also feel more discriminated against?

I appreciate most of the discourse here, and think much of it is rather intelligent, whether I agree with it or not. Although it was obvious to me, I guess I can clarify what I was saying, or the point I was making.

Kids can organize groups that promote kids and are exclusive to kids
Senior citizens can organize groups that promote senior citizens and are exclusive to senior citizens
gays can organize groups that promote gays and are exclusive to gays
women can organize groups that promote women and are exclusive to women
blacks can organize groups that promote blacks and are exclusive to blacks
asians can organize groups that promote asians and are exclusive to asians.....

you get the idea.

white males (but actually whites in general) can NOT organize a group that promotes white males. And any community group that a white male belongs to can in no way be exclusive to white males.

Clearly this is a double standard.

White people believing that they're being more discriminated against is perception, not fact.

White males do not need an advocacy group. We are the dominant, mainstream, majority culture. Historically marginalized groups are the ones who need advocacy groups.

It really is this simple.

Kevin, there are wonderful examples of every "group" in America pulling thermselves up with their own labor. Everyone applaud's that, inspiring success stories that lift our spirits is part of the American dream.

What many dislike is the preferential treatment showered upon the government approved few. As if those groups are incapable of helping themselves, who need extra help because life's not fair, or they are too stupid to figure out life's rules, or they need a caring government to coddle their every need, or they need to get put at the head of the line because of something that happened 250 years ago, or to help level the playing field, blah, blah blah, whine, whine whine. Liberal hogwash.

Shut up, get to work, bust your balls, and make something out of your life. Stop complaining and demanding a double standard of prefential treatment.

Stop judging people by their skin color, it only makes YOU a racist. How about treating everyone EQUAL, thats the liberal password, right?

Todays book: Animal Farm Geo. Orwell

Good day, Abe

Nomograph says

There's actually a large number of groups dedicated to the advancement of white people.

Instead of playing victim why don't you join one, Jeremy? Or better yet, start your own.

* American Third Position Party, is an American political party which promotes white supremacism. It was founded in 2010, and defines its principal mission as representing the political interests of white Americans.

* American Nazi Party, is a neo-Nazi organization based largely upon the ideals and policies of Adolf Hitler's NSDAP in Germany during the Third Reich but claims that it is in conformance with the Constitutional principles of the U.S.'s Founding Fathers. It also supports Holocaust denial.

* Aryan Nations, is a white supremacist neo-Nazi organization founded in the 1970s by Richard Girnt Butler as an arm of the Christian Identity group known as the Church of Jesus Christ-Christian.

Nomograph's argument is transparent here. Every group he named, is or has been labeled as a white supremacist or "hate" group. He is attempting to label all white groups who are racially solidified as racist. There are black supremacist groups too such as.....

-Nation of Islam
-New Black Panther Party
-United Nuwaubian Nation of Moors
-Tribu Ka
-Nation of Yahweh
-Bobo Shanti
etc. etc.

This does not mean that all black groups are racist. Nor is Nomograph suggesting this. He is saying that....

Nomograph says

The world is filled with double, triple, quadruple, and higher order standards. Many of these multiple standards have evolved or were created for very good reasons.

Many of these multiple standards have evolved or were created for very good reasons huh? Since the context of this thread is whites, you must be preaching that whites SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED to form a group for good reasons. What are these reasons?

Remember what I said before?

Scagnetti says

It's possible to organize a fellowship of all whites promoting the advancement of "white people". You need to be ready to be called a "racist","nazi", "kkk member" etc. etc. See below......

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Tony Manero says

Isn't this what the klan and the militia movement and, lately, the teabaggers were all about?

The anti-white figureheads, pundits, and parrots will come out in force to discredit a group like that any way possible. The most common tactic would be to call the group "racist". It doesn't matter if anything they say is true or not, what matters is the label.

It looks like Nomograph has degenerated to the point where he will insinuate that any racially conscious white group is racist, just like I said would happen above. Am I a psychic or do you think this type of illogical reasoning has been used before?

Nomograph says

Disagreement with Affirmative Action has NOTHING to do with your claim of being marginalized because you are a white male.

It has everything to do with discrimination! Affirmative action gives preferential treatment to non whites and women based on there sex and race. The program is inherently biased! It is supposed to be, "the best person gets the job".

The majority of Americans believe that affirmative action gives preferential treatment to minorities and women. http://www.usatoday.com/news/polls/tables/live/0623.htm

The majority of Americans believe that affirmative action should be abolished. http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1295.xml?ReleaseID=1307

Kevin says

White people believing that they're being more discriminated against is perception, not fact.

White males do not need an advocacy group. We are the dominant, mainstream, majority culture. Historically marginalized groups are the ones who need advocacy groups.

It really is this simple.

Here is a fact. From 1998 to 2008, there was a 45 percent rise in race based discrimination filings by whites! (Scott Cannon, "More Whites Complaining to EEOC of Racial Discrimination" Kansas City Star, July 28, 2009.)

"Affirmative action" is complicated. Its intent was to prevent discrimination. Only sometimes, and more so in the past does this translate to " preferential treatment to non whites and women."

Preferential treatment to non whites and women makes more sense to me in some places than others, and it's usually done voluntarily, more than because of fear of consequences. This is especially true within corporations that sometimes go out of their way to promote having a diverse workforce.

It's fascinating to me, that the same people who complain about welfare also complain about this. IF in the future you want to be justified in telling people that they only have themselves to blame for not having a good job, then the workplace environments out there have to be diverse.

Don't we all at least partially understand the complexity of this? And probably many of us, myself included, have some ambivalence about it when it comes to for example med school or law school admissions.

But at the same time it's an example (before the current fascist era) of our government, corporations and educational institutions addressing a really tough issue that didn't have a perfect solution.

This is a good description of the evolution of affirmative action. IF you are just going to read part, check out #6 and #7 about med schools. Quotas were deemed unconstitutional, and yet affirmative action survived.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/affirmative-action/

Scagnetti says

Nomograph says

Disagreement with Affirmative Action has NOTHING to do with your claim of being marginalized because you are a white male.

It has everything to do with discrimination! Affirmative action gives preferential treatment to non whites and women based on there sex and race. The program is inherently biased! It is supposed to be, "the best person gets the job".

The majority of Americans believe that affirmative action gives preferential treatment to minorities and women. http://www.usatoday.com/news/polls/tables/live/0623.htm

The majority of Americans believe that affirmative action should be abolished. http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1295.xml?ReleaseID=1307

Of course Affirmative action gives preferential treatment to women and minorties -- THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE PROGRAM!

There will come a day when affirmative action is no longer needed, but that day hasn't come yet.

And, yes, the majority of people (i.e. the non-marginalized groups) would OF COURSE believe such programs should be abolished. They've always opposed them.

Affirmative action was not "intended to prevent discrimination". It was intended to try to close the achievement gap between men and women, between whites and minorities. It has worked to some extent, but it's not done yet.

Kevin says

Affirmative action was not "intended to prevent discrimination." It was intended to try to close the achievement gap between men and women, between whites and minorities.

Actually, better probably to describe it as being about providing equal opportunity, where preventing discrimination and closing the achievement gap would be indirect results of this. Often times, providing equal opportunity goes hand in hand with not discriminating, especially in lower skill jobs.

In any case, the language used by the government has been that of anti-discrimination or "non-discriminatory practices."

Kennedy and Johnson's executive orders on affirmative action:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_10925

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_11246

We live in a country where Apoo the immigrant behind the counter at the quickie mart, could be president if he really sat his mind to it, and had enough people that dug his stuff.

I think at this point, nobody should get an unfair advantage awarded to them, over anyone. People need to quit trying to Handicap society. Those that want to, will aspire to, and those that don't will only screw it up, until they do. You can't poke someone laying in the gutter and say "you there! here take this coat and go manage the FED" Well you could, but we probably shouldn't ever do it again. It's no different than handing a broom to a successful entrepreneur and telling him to go sweep the street.

I was listening to KGO radio while driving this afternoon. The lady talking was a woman I don't know who, and she was conversing with some other woman about the Academy Awards (Oscars).
The second one was explaining who exactly comprised the Academy who of course vote on which movie, actor, actress, etc. is their favorite.
"Most of them are white men, over 65. They're like a bunch of college professors in the 70's or something"
The response from the KGO babe was derisive laughter and some comment about how they are not really making any strides in "diversity", and it was as if this organization was POISONOUS for being comprised of so many white successful men. Imagine the injustice!

Kevin says

There will come a day when affirmative action is no longer needed, but that day hasn't come yet.

50 years is plenty of time in which success has been acheived.
Again, I remind you of the current president in office.

TPB says

We live in a country where Apoo the immigrant behind the counter at the quickie mart, could be president if he really sat his mind to it, and had enough people that dug his stuff.

Other than the part of the constitution that bars immigrants from being President, right?

TPB says

I think at this point, nobody should get an unfair advantage awarded to them, over anyone.

I agree. Lets make sure that all schools have the exact same amount of money, all children are raised by equally competent parents, and nobody is allowed to inherit anything.

thomas.wong1986 says

50 years is plenty of time in which success has been acheived.
Again, I remind you of the current president in office.

You can't make up for a millenia of discrimination with 50 years.

And a single half-black president doesn't mean that there's nothing left to do. There's still a massive educational, employment, income, business ownership, and government representation gap between white males and most other groups.

Hey, at least this conversation has moved from the fantasy land of "white men are the most marginalized group" to something that is actually a somewhat reasonable discussion.

Kevin says

You can't make up for a millenia of discrimination with 50 years.
And a single half-black president doesn't mean that there's nothing left to do. There's still a massive educational, employment, income, business ownership, and government representation gap between white males and most other groups.

Should it be 75, 100, or 200 years...and who is to decide that ?

How many black presidents/congressmen must we have until so called discrimination has ended?
How many black CEOs and doctors must we have ?

Whats the quota you have in mind...

This all sounds like demands of some marxist guerrilla group holding out in the jungles of Peru demanding some power sharing structure from the government without actually having to do any work.

Kevin says

Hey, at least this conversation has moved from the fantasy land of "white men are the most marginalized group" to something that is actually a somewhat reasonable discussion.

Keep repeating that and being in denial. My answer is NO, your wrong!

thomas.wong1986 says

Should it be 75, 100, or 200 years...and who is to decide that ?

I suppose it could start being 'decided' when studies like the one below no longer reveal biases in the systems that have been traditionally and pretty much forever controlled by aging white men. To summarize, the study reveals that gender biasses completely influence hiring practices at most symphonies in favor of white males, and that these biases are eliminated when applicant musicians are tested behind screens - IE the talent is allowed to speak for itself and applicants aren't screened out or marginalized because they're women.

http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pwb/01/0212/7b.shtml

"Efforts to conceal the identities of musicians auditioning for spots in symphony orchestras significantly boost the chances of women to succeed, a study co-written by a Princeton economist suggests.

Traditionally, women have been underrepresented in American and European orchestras. Renowned (male) conductors have asserted that female musicians have "smaller techniques," are more temperamental and are simply unsuitable for orchestras, and some European orchestras do not hire women at all. Proving discrimination in hiring practices, however, has been difficult."

On being white in America and being offended by affirmative action... A friend of mine describes it as such: "Imagine someone who has been been riding a bicycle downhill with the wind at their back for so long they've forgotten that they're going downhill with the wind pushing them. Then, when they see someone coming in the opposite direction, struggling up the hill against the wind they just assume the problem is with individual and say "hey, what's their problem? We're both just riding bikes..."

thomas.wong1986 says

Keep repeating that and being in denial. My answer is NO, your wrong

Thomas, unfortunately you pretty clearly just don't understand the concept, and making an assumption based on your log in name - that your family is heritage is chinese - I find that kind of surprising, unless I suppose you actually are pretty deep denial. Have you looked into the kind of immigration practices that were in place in California not many years ago for people coming in from china? Do a bit of reading on Angel Island. Would you be arguing to keep those policies in place were they still policy?

Affirmative action is a very enlightened method to attempt enrich our entire culture & society, over the continued preferential treatment of one group. And frankly I applaud if for no other simple reason that it gets more hot multi-cultuaral chicks into the workforce. ;-). However, if your personal philosophy is one based on personal selfishness at the expense of others then I would indeed see why you'd have a harder time understanding or accepting the concepts.

Kevin says

I agree. Lets make sure that all schools have the exact same amount of money, all children are raised by equally competent parents, and nobody is allowed to inherit anything.

So you do admit liberals think most Black families, are headed by sheer incompetence? That's why the Liberals so desperately try to keep under some government or state wardship. And the Liberals want to take from those that are well off, especially those that inherited from a family and give it to them?

Your comeback is why I think Liberals are too incompetent to lead.
The dishonesty in the Republicans can be augmented by subpoenas, but like Scooter sez, you can't fix fucking stupid. This is why I would vote Palin/Buchanan(anyone for that matter) over Obama.

Kevin says

Of course Affirmative action gives preferential treatment to women and minorties -- THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE PROGRAM!

Yes, and the program has been built on a base of poor reasoning. It has been wrong since it started and it still is today. We are trying to cure racism and sexism with a racist and sexist policy? Isn't this government approved discrimination? Do the ends justify the means?