patrick.net

leoj707 says

The Catholic church has a mixed history in regards to science. They have actually been relatively pro-science (some of the first universities and all that) except when science goes against dogma. Then is when you get your Galileos.

The Catholic Church has always supported any academic thesis that it can use to convince the masses that they should follow the Catholic Church. That's why the Church loved Ptolemy and Aristotle. Anything that increases their power is good, and anything that decreases it is bad. Hardly a benign or noble motive.

What really stinks about the whole monotheism thing is that it's so specific and arbitrary. Why believe in a god or afterlife in the first place when nothing in the universe suggests that they exist? Why believe in only on god? Why believe that the creator of the universe should know about or give a rat's ass about humans? Why believe that the creator of the universe should be benign instead of evil? Monotheism makes dozens of ridiculous assumptions justifying none of them and ignoring all evidence to the contrary.

T says

The key difference is that science is based on observed collection of facts and data. Big bang might be possible to prove with science, but it builds up to that, not the other way around.

On the other hand, religion is based on a supernatural being or god, where the whole faith is based on that entity and the faith crumbles if that entity is proven to be false.

Science is proof without certainty -- religion is certainty without proof.

Religion(s) will never be proven false. They will just redefine god(s)/spirits to work with the current level of evidence.

Dan8267 says

Hardly a benign or noble motive.

Yes, and religious or not I would be willing to bet that many scientific advances happen because of motives that are not benign or noble.

Dan8267 says

Why believe in a god or afterlife in the first place when nothing in the universe suggests that they exist? Why believe in only on god? Why believe that the creator of the universe should know about or give a rat's ass about humans?

Dan, you need to don the god helmet.

People have the same experience provided by the god helmet naturally. Just as your touch, sight, taste, hearing and smell provide you with evidence of the world around you there are those believe their god helmet feelings also proved them with evidence of "truth".

leoj707 says

there are those believe their god helmet feelings also proved them with evidence of "truth".

In the same way that crack cocaine is evidence of "truth" like my hand is soooo groovey.

Thanks, but I'll pass. Just because something feels good, doesn't mean it's good for you. Religion is like crack, only more dangerous.

Dan8267 says

In the same way that crack cocaine is evidence of "truth" like my hand is soooo groovey.

Physics, math, science, etc. all these things I would come to you with questions. Apparently however drugs is not among these things.

*ah-hem*

While I am no expert myself "groovey" should never be used as an adjective for "cocaine". You are thinking of magic mushrooms; which coincidentally have been shown to have very positive side effects
. We would probably be a lot better off as a country if more people took courses of mushrooms every few years or so.

That said, yes religion is like effects of drug, but without the actually use of drugs. Like going for a run can feel like cocaine. There is a big difference in perception when someone knows an effect is due to an external drug and when it comes naturally -- and perhaps even brought on by prayer, meditation, temple ceremony, snake handling, or whatever is the spiritual ritual de jour…

leoj707 says

That said, yes religion is like effects of drug, but without the actually use of drugs.

Actually, I think that pretty much all those ancient religions were based on drug trips. Burning bush -- opium. Talking snakes -- Mary Jane. Christians and Jews could legitimately claim that doing narcotics is a religious practice since all their theological myths are based on drug induced hallucinations.

Dan8267 says

Christians and Jews could legitimately claim that doing narcotics is a religious practice since all their theological myths are based on drug induced hallucinations.

Yes, and the "natural" religious experience can also prompt visual, auditory and tactile hallucinations without the aid of drugs.

Drugs being much more reliable, all kinds of religions past and present use chemicals to launch or enhance the religious experience. However, I don't think that drugs -- or the god helmet for that matter -- "convert" anyone to belief. I would guess that those who view drug experiences as religious "truth" already were believers of some flavor, and the drugs are just reenforcing what they already believe -- be it UFO's, Huitzilopochtli or Jesus.

OK, so you don't want to try the god helmet (I don't blame you, I would not put that on my head) or drugs. Do you like spicy food? Eating a rack of the hottest BBQ ribs you can find can bring your mind to a kind of proto-psycadelic state.

Ribs aren't Hot. I bet you've never even seen a rib.

Plenty of non-intentional ways to hallucinate in the pre-modern world as well.

A little too much tansy or wormwood in a jug of wine would do it. Not to mention Ergot in rye breads. I imagine some other forms of food poisoning could bring on hallucinations.

A little wiki searching shows that Ergot was called "Saint Anthony's Fire" and a whole hospital order of monks specialized in mitigating the effects, which was believed to be spiritual in origin at the time.

thunderlips11 says

A little too much tansy or wormwood in a vat of wine would do it.

The hallucinogenic effects of wormwood are vastly exaggerated and steeped in myth. Absinth is no more hallucinogenic than a redbull and vodka.

Tansy I am not familiar with.

thunderlips11 says

Not to mention Ergot in rye breads.

Ergot? Or was it actually witches...
http://www.damninteresting.com/bad-rye-and-the-salem-witches/

leoj707 says

The hallucinogenic effects of wormwood are vastly exaggerated and steeped in myth. Absinth is no more hallucinogenic than a redbull and vodka.

Wormwood contains thujone that can cause seizures and hallucinations in high doses, and yes, in typically much higher amounts than found in Absinthe.

However, herbs were used frequently as treatments for ailments.

It's not unlikely that people drank infusions or drinks with wormwood or tansy in ludicrous amounts. Many western and Asian traditional medicine nuts poison themselves today with overdoses of herbs that are harmless in normal quantities, including a few that are normally culinary herbs. Especially if they mix essential oils in drinks.

We do know that "Midnight Tea" or other similarly named concoctions were used to induce abortion, and they contain large amounts of pretty common herbs.

thunderlips11 says

It's not unlikely that people drank infusions or drinks with wormwood or tansy in ludicrous amounts. Many western and Asian traditional medicine nuts poison themselves today with overdoses of herbs that are harmless in normal quantities, including a few that are normally culinary herbs.

Yeah, with wormwood at least I thought that at hallucinogenic dosage levels you were just as likely to kill yourself.

I think that Absinth was originally a "preventative" tonic.

leoj707 says

Yeah, with wormwood at least I thought that at hallucinogenic dosage levels you were just as likely to kill yourself.

True. I do know that wormwood is traditionally believed to be a way of ridding yourself of parasites, hence the name.

Some village wise woman dosing people with copious amounts of wormwood is possible.

But you're right, googling I see the range of dosage between getting the fireworks and killing yourself seems to be very narrow.

leoj707 says

thunderlips11 says

Not to mention Ergot in rye breads.

Ergot? Or was it actually witches...

http://www.damninteresting.com/bad-rye-and-the-salem-witches/

Great article, thanks Leo.

It mentions another religion-inducing substance, Kykeon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kykeon

Antikythera mechanism and the pyramids. Beat that.

Bap33 says

Antikythera mechanism

Awesome.

Cloud says

and over here we have Copernicus, Kepler, Bacon, Galilei, Descarte, Pascal, Newton, Boyle, Fraraday, Mendel...and on and on.

That is an immensely stupid argument. Have you actually considered what their views would likely be if they had been born in this day and age?

Bigsby, please see my last post, and recall the time frame of such creations, and then argue why today's minds are better than the minds that knew/realized/expressed/investigated a spiritual world as well as a physical world. Please.

This is ridiculous. What kind of society do you think they were born and raised in? What kind of knowledge of the world did they have? They may have been great men of their time, but their knowledge of the sciences was a tiny fraction of what we know now. Why not do a quick Google of the beliefs held by scientists nowadays? Do you not see the point? You can't turn round and say 'well all these scientists in the past believed in God.' Well pretty much everyone believed in God then and if they didn't they very much kept it to themselves for some very obvious reasons.

thunderlips11 says

Bap33 says

Antikythera mechanism

Awesome.

Homo Economicus. A Legendary Creature, like Bigfoot, claimed to exist by Pseudoscientists.

Yeah, pretty cool. I think it is up there with the Baghdad Battery.

Cloud says

Oh I get the giants of science were stupid about God back then.

Today scientific knowledge as far surpassed what they knew back then. That does not make them stupid.

The fact is though that the god(s) of the gaps has shrunk considerable sense their time(s), and as a result a large majority of their contemporaries do not believe in god(s). So, it stands to reason that if they were born today most of them would not believe in god(s).

Bigsby says

Well pretty much everyone believed in God then and if they didn't they very much kept it to themselves for some very obvious reasons.

Ha ha, yes consequences were much more severe for an admitted non-christian then than today.

Bap33 says

Bigsby, please see my last post, and recall the time frame of such creations, and then argue why today's minds are better than the minds that knew/realized/expressed/investigated a spiritual world as well as a physical world. Please.

?

You do realize that it is because of the investigations into the spiritual and physical world by the great minds of yesteryear that the great minds of today don't bother to investigate the spiritual world today.

Investigations into the physical world have yielded fruits that we all enjoy/dread today. However, spiritual investigations have not yielded anything really.

If you were running an R&D department for the last 10,000 years where would you put your research effort in?

Bigsby says

This is ridiculous. What kind of society do you think they were born and raised in? What kind of knowledge of the world did they have? They may have been great men of their time, but their knowledge of the sciences was a tiny fraction of what we know now. Why not do a quick Google of the beliefs held by scientists nowadays? Do you not see the point? You can't turn round and say 'well all these scientists in the past believed in God.' Well pretty much everyone believed in God then and if they didn't they very much kept it to themselves for some very obvious reasons.

ummmm . no. You see my friend, the things I mentioned were not picked by accident. Most ancient stone work can not be duplicated nor explained by modern science. If you feel Egyptians carved the huge stones with copper tools, and placed the stones using vine ropes and slave labor, then you and I disagree. If you feel the study of the stars in a lifetime (about 50 years back then, but lets get crazy and call it 75) was enough to be able to plot and predict the Earth's position in the solar system, lunar and solar eclipses, and astroligical procession, then you and I disagree. I believe that info was wrote down and passed along with just as much detail as the Noah Flood story or the Adam story. ..... why would the same people be so correct about the details of their physical world, and yet be so incorrect about the details of their spiritual world? Ever hear of Enoch?

@leo,
that is a good point, given what we know today. But, I do not think we have a 10K historical reference in play today ... I put our reference at about 3K years of current human development. It seems like something really big and bad took place pre-3K to about 12K ago. Man was as we see him now, but the mind, the universe, the planet, and the spiritual world were different back then, some how. Maybe when Atlantis exploded it set us back a few K in development? Or, when the Tower of Bable was destroyed it was a set back?? Not sure.

Bap33 says

If you feel Egyptians carved the huge stones with copper tools, and placed the stones using vine ropes and slave labor, then you and I disagree.

They used a proto-concrete quicklime, and all most of the stones were local. We've already found ramps and docks for moving more distant stone, and the evidence for the existence of massive ramps to move the stone up the pyramid face.

No "unknown metals from the planet Zoltan" have been uncovered near the Pyramids.

They had more than 50 years. Egyptians had writing, and could have been tracking the stars for hundreds of years.

Bap33 says

I put our reference at about 3K years of current human development.

Fair enough, 3k years is probably a better knowledge advancement point.

Bap33 says

Maybe when Atlantis exploded it set us back a few K in development? Or, when the Tower of Bable was destroyed it was a set back?? Not sure.

While we may *ahem* disagree on some "historical" and geological events, I do think that the progress of knowledge has not been a smooth curve. There have been ups/downs, lost knowledge, re-inventing the wheel, etc.

leoj707 says

thunderlips11 says

Bap33 says

Antikythera mechanism

Awesome.

Homo Economicus. A Legendary Creature, like Bigfoot, claimed to exist by Pseudoscientists.

Yeah, pretty cool. I think it is up there with the Baghdad Battery.

OK, not as ancient but certainly an "out of its time" invention.

Charles Babbage's computer built in the early 1800s is a great example of how a huge scientific leap can happen then fade away only to be picked up 100s of years later.

dude .... lol ... the great pyramid covers 14 friggin acres and is sitting dead flat and aims perfectly NSEW at the corners (the sides bow inward).

It had no friggin door, had no treasure, no body, vents that stopped short of the exit, and a use that remains unknown.

The huge granite slabs in the Kings Chamber are not friggin local, they are way far away and too big. Granite cant be beat on with copper to be made flat or shaped.

We have found ramps? Really? (link please) I wonder where did the dirt go to, or come from.

I don't claim to know what's up with the huge stone work of ancient man, but I do think Egytian muslamists are fibbing about the pyramids.

Bap33 says

We have found ramps? Really? (link please) I wonder where did the dirt go to, or come from.

Number of people and time to build pyramid:

But the process of building pyramids, while complicated, was not as colossal an undertaking as many of us believe, Redford says. Estimates suggest that between 20,000 and 30,000 laborers were needed to build the Great Pyramid at Giza in less than 23 years. By comparison, Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris took almost 200 years to complete.

According to Redford, pharaohs traditionally began building their pyramids as soon as they took the throne. The pharaoh would first establish a committee composed of an overseer of construction, a chief engineer and an architect. The pyramids were usually placed on the western side of the Nile because the pharaoh's soul was meant to join with the sun disc during its descent before continuing with the sun in its eternal round. Added Redford, the two deciding factors when choosing a building site were its orientation to the western horizon where the sun set and the proximity to Memphis, the central city of ancient Egypt.

Bap33 says

The huge granite slabs in the Kings Chamber are not friggin local, they are way far away and too big. Granite cant be beat on with copper to be made flat or shaped.

Dolerite.

According to Redford, ancient Egyptian quarrying methods -- the processes for cutting and removing stone -- are still being studied. Scholars have found evidence that copper chisels were using for quarrying sandstone and limestone, for example, but harder stones such as granite and diorite would have required stronger materials, said Redford. Dolerite, a hard, black igneous rock, was used in the quarries of Aswan to remove granite.

During excavation, massive dolerite "pounders" were used to pulverize the stone around the edge of the granite block that needed to be extracted. According to Redford, 60 to 70 men would pound out the stone. At the bottom, they rammed wooden pegs into slots they had cut, and filled the slots with water. The pegs would expand, splitting the stone, and the block was then slid down onto a waiting boat.

Ramps and Slipways used to move stone quarried elsewhere; you can pull multi-ton stones with rope:

Teams of oxen or manpower were used to drag the stones on a prepared slipway that was lubricated with oil. Said Redford, a scene from a 19th century B.C. tomb in Middle Egypt depicts "an alabaster statue 20 feet high pulled by 173 men on four ropes with a man lubricating the slipway as the pulling went on."

Once the stones were at the construction site, ramps were built to get them into place on the pyramid, said Redford. These ramps were made of mud brick and coated with chips of plaster to harden the surface. "If they consistently raised the ramp course by course as the teams dragged their blocks up, they could have gotten them into place fairly easily," he noted. At least one such ramp still exists, he said.

When answering to skepticism about how such heavy stones could have been moved without machinery, Redford says, "I usually show the skeptic a picture of 20 of my workers at an archaeological dig site pulling up a two-and-a-half ton granite block." He added, "I know it's possible because I was on the ropes too."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080328104302.htm

Alternative Ramp theory (Pyramid built from inside out):

The little thermometer/compass clipped to my bag read 111 degrees as I began climbing the Great Pyramid in search of evidence for how it was built. We know it was the tomb of the pharaoh Khufu and that Hemienu, Khufu's brother, directed its construction some 4,500 years ago. But how the massive limestone blocks were raised has been debated since at least the fifth century B.C., when local priests told the Greek historian Herodotus that cranes were used.

All of the current theories--a long, straight ramp, a ramp that corkscrewed around the outside of the pyramid, or cranelike shadoufs (used in Egypt until recently for irrigating fields)--have serious flaws. In the May/June 2007 issue of ARCHAEOLOGY, architect Jean-Pierre Houdin and I presented a radical new theory: that blocks of stone were raised to the very top of the pyramid on an internal ramp.

We gave what we felt was strong evidence for the theory, which explains a French team's microgravemetric survey in the 1980s that recorded variations in the density of the pyramid. Although the researchers didn't recognize its importance, an image from the survey may show a ramp still open inside the pyramid, running parallel to the outer face of the structure and turning 90 degrees at the corners, corkscrewing up to the top. In the article, we suggested other nondestructive methods of surveying, including infrared and sonar that could yield conclusive proof of an internal ramp. We remain hopeful that we will receive permission to conduct such a survey.

http://www.archaeology.org/0907/etc/khufu_pyramid.html

Interesting that after many centuries passed since the Pyramids were built, the Egyptians remembered cranes being used, but didn't mention aliens or Jedi-like Psi Energy being used to lift the stones. There is also evidence of ramps and carvings showing knowledge of building with those techniques via bas reliefs, but no illustrations of UFOs and no tame, trained Giant Bigfoots hauling or teleporting stone.

Furthermore, the idea kicks Occam's Razor out the front door. I imagine that an interstellar civilization capable of FTL travel between stars would be capable of navigating without having to build a massive landmark to use for dead reckoning:

"Yeah, Zdffaspfffth! We can navigate precisely between Qualuude IV and Sol III 73 Light Years away with our Uranium-Plutonium Warp Drive, but GPS, radio beacons, basic flight instrumentation and mapping, etc. we never invented. So we got the intelligent apes to build us a ridiculously large limestone Pyramid we can navigate by. And other ape tribes to draw lines in the sand in the shape of birds."

Cloud says

I'll stick with the Giants of Science who were beleivers. You folks can toil.

Yeah, that explains why when religion the dominant force, ~400-1400, except for chainmail, ox collar yokes, and windmills, not much else happened. Certainly not on the scale of what happened during and after the Enlightenment, when superstition was put in it's place.

Redford is full of crap.

Watch the whole show when you have time, but for now here's just a little bit: http://www.youtube.com/embed/pOjhcfIIIjw&feature=relmfu

All that video proved is that THAT guy (who is not Redford) is full of crap. Did you even watch that?

That said, my favorite part of that is where he says "It's simple mathematics" and then, a mere minute later, manages to divide 2 minutes by 4 and get 2 seconds.

Bap, god came to me in a dream last night. She told me that I need to set you straight - you're just too gullible! She's worried that you'll believe anything you hear that affirms your world view and that one day this will lead you, as it has so many other religious people, to do something truly evil. Please be careful with what you believe.

Bap33 says

ummmm . no. You see my friend, the things I mentioned were not picked by accident. Most ancient stone work can not be duplicated nor explained by modern science. If you feel Egyptians carved the huge stones with copper tools, and placed the stones using vine ropes and slave labor, then you and I disagree. If you feel the study of the stars in a lifetime (about 50 years back then, but lets get crazy and call it 75) was enough to be able to plot and predict the Earth's position in the solar system, lunar and solar eclipses, and astroligical procession, then you and I disagree. I believe that info was wrote down and passed along with just as much detail as the Noah Flood story or the Adam story. ..... why would the same people be so correct about the details of their physical world, and yet be so incorrect about the details of their spiritual world? Ever hear of Enoch?

Are you high? What on earth has that got to do with my post? Not to mention that what you wrote is complete nonsense. Being capable of piling large stones on top of each other doesn't suddenly give you great insight into the spiritual world, or are you saying that you are a follower of the polytheistic beliefs of ancient Egypt?

Bap33 says

dude .... lol ... the great pyramid covers 14 friggin acres and is sitting dead flat and aims perfectly NSEW at the corners (the sides bow inward).

It had no friggin door, had no treasure, no body, vents that stopped short of the exit, and a use that remains unknown.

The huge granite slabs in the Kings Chamber are not friggin local, they are way far away and too big. Granite cant be beat on with copper to be made flat or shaped.

We have found ramps? Really? (link please) I wonder where did the dirt go to, or come from.

I don't claim to know what's up with the huge stone work of ancient man, but I do think Egytian muslamists are fibbing about the pyramids.

Fibbing in what way? And what's so strange about there being no body and no treasure? There's a bloody great sarcophagus in the Great Pyramid. I was inside there nearly 25 years ago. There's sweet FA of interest inside and it stinks of piss, but so what, it's still a very impressive structure. There is no secret to the pyramids. They were an advanced culture for their time, had enormous wealth, and plenty of skilled labour to toil away on constructions that they had a great deal of experience building, both successfully and unsuccessfully. That area is littered with pyramids. There's just nothing extraordinary about them.

Cloud says

Those are just a few scientists. THE GREAT ONES.

I haven't even touched upon statesmen, philosophers, great composers, great writers etc.

Guess these guys were all closet atheists too.

Because you know all great men are atheist. They all showed up that day in Washington (3 people)

Even Einstein (guess he was being threatened too) talk about God and could come to no conclusion.

You are on a wind up, or otherwise you simply don't read other people's posts. They may well have all believed in god or gods. So what? As I already said, pretty much everyone believed in such things then for very obvious reasons, and most scientists don't nowadays. Views and knowledge all change, but you seem to be deliberately ignoring that obvious fact.

Bigsby says

There is no secret to the pyramids

liberal elite much?

Bigsby says

There's just nothing extraordinary about them

you mean, other than the fact that we cant build one as perfect today?

Bigsby says

Being capable of piling large stones on top of each other doesn't suddenly give you great insight

lol .... you should educate yourself on the weights of such stones, and ponder by what means they were elevated and balanced and honed to tight fits ... I mean, you may not realize this, but there are THOUSANDS of big rocks that have been manipulated into place that we have no means, at all, to do right now.

The point is those same minds of that time knew their spirit world just as well as they new their physical world. Your kind MUST reduce the physical abilities to help hide their spiritual abilities.

@Matt,
lol ..... write down the numbers in front of you. Total stones, total years. Now, he said the workers were farmers and that reduced the number of days they worked on these little projects. Even if you do not do that function, and then DOUBLED the years for construction, you have an IMPOSSIBLE time frame. Write them down.

The site had to be made dead flat. The stone had to be cut. The location had to be plotted. If you like the ramp theroy, at this time you would need to find some sand and move it. If you like vine ropes, you would need to start building them. If you like the idea of crews of slaves or volunteers - any amount you wish - male and/or female - then you must feed, water, clothe, shelter, care for these workers and their masters and the design team and the on-site quality control team, and the soldiers that have to protect everything ... this means that the farmers, hunters, cloth makers, water tenders, and home builders/repair teams, engineers, and soldiers had to not help on the project.

Any idea how they did this job without port-a-potys?

Now, use any other source you want, get the number of stones you like, and do the math. Now, add in the chambers, shafts, and their perfect placement. Ya, today's minds are special - sure..... in their lack of humility and lack of spirituality. You are not the center of the universe. Anti-Christian is not the only answer. Progressive liberal atheists are not very accepting of diversity.

Bap33 says

Bigsby says

There is no secret to the pyramids

liberal elite much?

What? You must be another of the nutters on here. How the hell do you manage to link those two together? Give me strength.

And there's nothing perfect about the pyramids. They could obviously be built today - look at the buildings that are constructed nowadays. The pyramids aren't replicated because of the cost and the pointlessness. How the hell do you work out that we can't lift large cut stone blocks into position? It's done all the time just on a smaller scale. Your points are ludicrous. Large buildings nowadays are highly complex compared to the very basic structure of the pyramid - hence the reason why a similar style was used around the world - it's the easiest way to build large, stable structures with limited tools. But I guess you think aliens built them.

And as for "The point is those same minds of that time knew their spirit world just as well as they new their physical world. Your kind MUST reduce the physical abilities to help hide their spiritual abilities," you've just got to laugh. Change your underpants, put your tin foil hat on and read a book, preferably not Chariots of the Gods.