patrick.net

Students could probably learn better from the Wikipedia than from lots of the textbooks I've seen and used.

That is so true!!!!

My earlier comment about using a cheaper reader instead of an ipad got me thinking if Apple had something to do with this. I went into my local WalMart and went looking for MP3 players. The only ones that they had in the store were all Apple products, at the in-store Apple store. A non-Apple branded MP3 player could not be found in that WalMart.

You are right patrick. We pay taxes so that schools don't charge us money. Service is paid for through taxes. This is not just illegal on their part, it is immoral too.

I can't provide any advice though, call a lawyer?

I should probably sue them for making me pay an extra $100 every year in property taxes to pay for "books". That's another bull**** fee.

The governor could sign a bill at any moment (AB 1575) that would provide the missing enforcement mechanism, so that parents would have a formal channel to complain about illegal charges for public schools and not have to actually go and file a lawsuit for each charge.

I hope he signs it. I heard he has till the end of this month. Not sure what happens after that if he doesn't.

The college textbook racket is one of the best rackets there is. It's almost as good as the American health care racket.

The governor could sign a bill at any moment (AB 1575) that would provide the missing enforcement mechanism, so that parents would have a formal channel to complain about illegal charges for public schools and not have to actually go and file a lawsuit for each charge.

I hope he signs it. I heard he has till the end of this month. Not sure what happens after that if he doesn't.

Least I can do is give him a call to voice some support.

yes, indeed. hundreds of unavoidable fees every term. usually you can't use the last edition, nor the published edition that has the most prints circulating, because the colleges have taken to conniving with the publisher for the 'special, this class only' edition which supposedly has material selected by the instructors, or at least their department.

when i asked one professor why they would be changing over a math textbook when i had the misfortune to attend one part of a series over one term year and the second in another, she said "well, the board says we must". i don't think that they've suddenly changed how they teach math, have they? and yet they force all of the students to purchase a new book.

some friendly instructors will tell you which other editions are suitable, and even translate their instructions for each book. i believe a lot of the students are going the rental route, but renting is still half the cost of the book and for those of you who are touting kindle, you don't save very much and i've had other students report to me that it is VERY bad for books that have diagrams, schematics and so on.

i was told long ago by a campus store manager that the publishers really hated that they bought books back and resold them, and were trying everything they could to close down this market. the colleges play along though, by changing the edition required every year. the boards must get some kind of kickback out of this, as it definitely doesn't serve their students.

FortWayne says

Least I can do is give him a call to voice some support.

Good idea! Maybe I should start a thread asking everyone to call the governor about this too?

Ultimately it's a shell game. You either pay out of pocket or via property taxes.

freak80 says

You either pay out of pocket or via property taxes.

That's fine with me. If you want private school, go ahead and pay for it. But taxpayer-funded free school are part of the state constitution, and that's a very good thing for people who believe we should all have the chance to succeed on our own merits.

BTW, here is the contact info page for Jerry Brown:

http://gov.ca.gov/m_contact.php

It's kind of confusing because you first enter your email address and name, and only then can you enter the contents of your message to him. But it seems to work.

You pay for roads with the gas tax, and then you get to pay again when you cross a bridge that's already paid for itself, several times over, decades ago. How is this any different?

zzyzzx says

You pay for roads with the gas tax, and then you get to pay again when you cross a bridge that's already paid for itself, several times over, decades ago. How is this any different?

If the homeowner isn't insulted by your offer...you didn't bid low enough!!!

could be mistaken, but the cost of maintenance increases over time. so you're only paying the construction costs initially. after that, you're paying just to keep the thing standing while you drive over it.

suspiria_2 says

the colleges play along though, by changing the edition required every year. the boards must get some kind of kickback out of this, as it definitely doesn't serve their students.

Yep. It's ridiculous to need a new edition every year. Especially in things like mathematics. It's not like 2+2=4 needs to be updated.

This is what I just heard, here in Las Vegas kids are also getting an iPad but the parents sign for it too, I haven't heard about the insurance payment but I think the parents are on the hook for it.

suspiria_2 says

could be mistaken, but the cost of maintenance increases over time. so you're only paying the construction costs initially. after that, you're paying just to keep the thing standing while you drive over it.

I suspect the bulk of the money goes to defined pension benefits for the tool takers, not the roads.

Electronic books may become cheaper and lighter and better than textbooks, which have been a very heavy and lucrative racket for years. Kids are weighed down by so many heavy books they need to put their backpacks over both shoulders or risk back trouble, while the Texas school boards distort education nationwide, and the publishers make $$$ from new editions.

suspiria_2 says

the cost of [bridge] maintenance increases over time. so [tolls are] only paying the construction costs initially. after that, you're paying just to keep the thing standing while you drive over it.

Actually for public bridges usually the public pays the construction cost, then the tolls pay for maintenance. The tolls increase as the maintenance costs increase. I mention it only because it sometimes becomes a wedge issue on local newspaper comments: motorists complain about pedestrian and cyclist "freeloaders" wanting access to the new Bay Bridge, but in fact everyone is paying billions for the new bridge and only motorists will have access. [update - thanks suspiria_2 - the public pays initially with bonds but the tolls are supposed to repay the bonds over time.] There isn't a constitutional right to bridges, but there is a constitutional right to education.

aren't you just restating what i said?

three R's refresher course, incoming.

KILLERJANE says

This is what I just heard, here in Las Vegas kids are also getting an iPad but the parents sign for it too, I haven't heard about the insurance payment but I think the parents are on the hook for it.

The insurance payment and the liability are on average the same fee. That's why people buy insurance: to have a certain small fee rather than the risk of a larger one.

Imposing any obligatory fee on free public education negates the "free" part of that.

State law already says parents are liable for WILLFUL damage to school property, and I have no problem with that. The problem I have is with schools buying expensive equipment and pushing ALL risk of damage (which equals the cost of the insurance in theory) onto parents as a way to shirk the school's own obligation.

Hey buddy,

Get with the program. Only the rich deserves the education. Not you.

Now we did QE3, there are more money out there. We need to raise the price of goods and services to milk more money out of you.

suspiria_2 says

aren't you just restating what i said?

Who and what? If you were referring to my comment about bridges, then no, you said tolls pay for construction, in fact for public bridges the public usually pays for construction. There are some private toll roads, mainly in Europe, where tolls may cover both construction and maintenance (I haven't looked into the numbers to see what subsidies they might get), but generally in America the public pays for construction and the tolls pay only for maintenance.

The insurance payment and the liability are on average the same fee. That's why people buy insurance: to have a certain small fee rather than the risk of a larger one.

In a free market that would be true. (In for-profit insurance, the premium would be a little higher than the expected risk, but people buy anyway because most people are risk averse.) In a lemon socialist / crony capitalist market, the insurance premium grossly exceeds the expected liability, and the markup is shared with politicians who make it mandatory, so people have to buy it regardless of what it's worth.

BTW, many homeowner's insurance policies include coverage for personal property even off site. So, if you lend your iPad to your daughter, it might be covered under your homeowner's policy at no additional cost. Check your policy if you have one, or if you're shopping for one then ask about this feature, sometimes it's a rider. Homeowner's insurance can actually be a reasonable deal, because it isn't mandatory so the insurers have to offer reasonable prices. The issue is they try not to show you the policy until after you've bought, but instead they may offer a trial period where you buy the policy, then you get to read it, and if you don't want it you can cancel.

Nobody says

Now we did QE3, there are more money out there. We need to raise the price of goods and services to milk more money out of you.

Yes, but it's not really about the money. The Fed can print an infinite amount of money.

It's about milking more labor out of you. The Fed is trying to force you to work longer and get nothing for it. One way they do it is to destroy everyone's dollar savings and make prices go up.

You are being forced to work for the non-productive rich, just because they own all the income-producing assets and you do not. That's the goal. Expanding the money supply is just the means, not the goal.

I don't mind people making money from producing something useful (God bless them all!), but making money by trapping labor to make them the permanent servants of a non-productive owner class is just wrong.

curious2 says

Who and what? If you were referring to my comment about bridges, then no, you said tolls pay for construction, in fact for public bridges the public usually pays for construction. There are some private toll roads, mainly in Europe, where tolls may cover both construction and maintenance (I haven't looked into the numbers to see what subsidies they might get), but generally in America the public pays for construction and the tolls pay only for maintenance.

i don't want to totally drag this thread off course with a comment regarding bridges, but:

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/tolling/520/FAQ.htm

"Q. Why is WSDOT tolling the SR 520 Bridge?
A. Tolling on the SR 520 Bridge helps pay for the new bridge, scheduled to open in 2014. The new bridge is designed to withstand major earthquakes and windstorms, providing increased safety."

http://goldengatebridge.org/research/ConstructionPrimeContr.php

"The last of the construction bonds was retired in 1971, with $35 million in principal and nearly $39 million in interest being paid entirely from Bridge tolls. With the exception of the Sausalito Lateral approach road (Alexander Avenue today) which was built as a federal WPA project, there was no state or federal funds involved in building the Golden Gate Bridge."

Good idea! Maybe I should start a thread asking everyone to call the governor about this too?

Well, everyone likes you, but I wonder how many really understand where you are coming from on this.

Personally I don't get it and won't. If my kids school was doing this, I might wish they weren't charging me, but I would think it's cool and it's worth it.
Presumably maybe title one funds would cover the cost for the kids who are eligible for the free lunch program.

But yeah, I totally don't get what bothers you here. I understand exactly what you're saying. "It's the law." But I would not and could not have the feelings you do about it. In your shoes I just would not be the slightest bit bothered by it.

I'm just saying that's me, and it's subjective (not whether it is illegal, but whether I would have a problem with it).

I can't figure out how to get an emergency injunction though. I looked at the San Mateo County court website for hours and got nowhere. Calling didn't help either. The people at the county court offices are not helpful.

I'm assuming that you've tried talking to the teacher(s) and/or principal? I would think that you would be able to present them with a reasonable argument on why she should be able to submit homework another way and, if the teacher must withhold the iPad, that they could do it in a discreet way.

Yes, personally talked to the Superintendent yesterday after he didn't answer my emails.

I proposed either:

A. The verbiage on the agreement be made legal by not requiring parents to be liable for any and all damage no matter what the cause, but instead be liable only for willful damage to school property, as is already the state law.

or

B. We be allowed to use our own iPad. I have no problem with them reformatting it or whatever.

He said he'd get back to me after conferring with the school's lawyer. In the meantime, I agreed to be liable for the iPad for the next week so my daughter can use it at home now. So I'm in waiting mode, and my daughter is happy for now.

marcus says

I totally don't get what bothers you here. I understand exactly what you're saying. "It's the law."

So you don't get it, but you do get it?

I want to be able to have some respect for our laws. They should say what they mean and mean what they say, or why have laws at all?

I propose a book, a pen and paper.

less than $5

iPad greater than $500

Ridiculous.

I don't want my children touching an iPad

suspiria_2 says

i don't want to totally drag this thread off course with a comment regarding bridges,

Thanks - I read further, and the same is true even of the SF Bay Bridge; the tolls repaid the construction costs within 20 years:

http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/news_events/bridge/sfobay.html

...and even bonds for the new section, which will cost 100x more than the whole bridge cost initially, are supposed to be repaid by tolls eventually:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/business/global/26bridge.html?pagewanted=all

I am glad to know that, and I hope it will work out. Now back to the original topic.

Here is the status page for AB 1575:

http://leginfo.ca.gov/pub/11-12/bill/asm/ab_1551-1600/ab_1575_bill_20120910_status.html

It's pretty cool. I assume they keep it updated all the time so that as soon as the governor signs it, everyone will know. Assuming he does sign it.

marcus says

I totally don't get what bothers you here. I understand exactly what you're saying. "It's the law."

So you don't get it, but you do get it?

Logic is not a strong suit for Marcus. For him, it's all about his own subjective feelings, regardless of facts and reason. That can be seen above, where he accused me of coming to this thread to troll him, when in fact I posted the first comment. (Perhaps he thinks I can read his mind and anticipate where he is going to comment, but really there are more interesting things to read.) At least he doesn't call you names, sometimes with profanity thrown in, and accuse you of trolling.

Politicofact says

I propose a book, a pen and paper.

less than $5

iPad greater than $500

Ridiculous.

I don't want my children touching an iPad

I concur.

Seems like everyone's trying to go electronic EVERYTHING, which is really making life more difficult than it needs to be.

On a semi-parallel note, we just started homeschooling our 3 and 4 year old. Only been at it for a couple months and my 4 year old is already at the 1st grade level, when technically, he shouldn't be in kindergarten until next year (fall of 2013).

Total cost = $0.

We got a library card, a pad of paper and a pencil. The kids a sponge.

My 3 year old is right up there with him.

joshuatrio says

we just started homeschooling our 3 and 4 year old.

Many more parents are doing that, for many reasons:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/01/29/why-urban-educated-parents-are-turning-to-diy-education.html

Some electronics can help too, e.g. free access to Khan Academy and YouTube. Even MIT and Berkeley are putting free courses online. The iPad can be very helpful for some kids, and there are many free education apps. I still support free public education though, because not all parents have the time or other resources for home schooling.

Richard Feynman has some amusing comments about the textbook selection process and how corrupt it is in his book "Surely You Must Be Joking Mr. Feynman!"

Always good to hear a reference to Feynman. ;-)
The other place to learn about the textbook crap game is in "Lies My Teacher Told Me"...it is especially critical of the history books and process. Paraphrasing, "When students take college courses, it is always better that they have some background in math, science, English, or any other subject: except History. With History, the less they have to be untaught, the better."

I think the web is a wonderful resource for kids, especially things like the Wikipedia and Khan Academy. And I have seen some useful programs for teaching trigonometry and other things that benefit from animated diagrams.

But they're also ephemeral. They can change or just disappear at any time in the way a physical book cannot. And books don't need batteries. Books are superior technology that way.

Books are superior technology that way.

Throw that Ipad out

Nobody says

Hey buddy,

Get with the program. Only the rich deserves the education. Not you.

Now we did QE3, there are more money out there. We need to raise the price of goods and services to milk more money out of you.

Cute. Everyone needs some kind of education......schools, OTOH: they don't. Schools are only needed by the state and their most favored construction industries.

curious2 says

Electronic books may become cheaper and lighter and better than textbooks, which have been a very heavy and lucrative racket for years. Kids are weighed down by so many heavy books they need to put their backpacks over both shoulders or risk back trouble, while the Texas school boards distort education nationwide, and the publishers make $$$ from new editions.

Yup. Perhaps the 'test' for a new teacher is whether they can put together their own electronic textbook from Wikipedia, etc. in the 3 months of summer.
Open Source Textbooks 'R Us....
Oh...that wouldn't give the school board time to review it, so there might have to be some lag in there from year-to-year.
Personally, I think textbook selection should be up to the graduating classes, and a lot more teaching of underclassmen should be done by upperclassmen: starting around what is generally considered 3rd grade.

So you don't get it, but you do get it?

I can not relate to the way you feel about it, but I don't believe this has anything to do with my not understanding your reasoning.

Patrick: I wouldn't worry too much about your daughter being hurt by this. It will instead give her respect in the long run from the administrators, even if they try to make things harder. My daughter had a run-in over the shop teacher only inviting boys to sign up for shop class. It was one of many over the years leading up to her salutatorian graduation this year (missed valedictorian because of a technicality on credits and advanced placement classes). Schools and their administrators need to be taught that some kids are smarter and/or less docile than they are.

marcus says

I can not relate to the way you feel about it, but I don't believe this has anything to do with my not understanding your reasoning.

OK sorry I wasn't as polite as I should have been. You don't have to feel the same way, but I do feel that the schools should obey really basic laws like the state constitution.