patrick.net

It's not really the loss of manufacturing base that killed Detroit.

Get rid of the Drugs and Gangs and you wont have killings...

Had this been a white crime organization creating the crime and violence
like Italian mafia as in decades past... it would be over in 18 months.
Its now been over 15+ years in Detroit.

It's not really the loss of manufacturing base that killed Detroit. It's the exceptionally high probability of being a victim of violent crime. There's a huge racial component to that as well, which is simply not spoken about in polite society or the mainstream press because it so politically incorrect to talk about which race normally attacks which other race and how it's pretty much never the other way around.

All you have to do is watch just 5 minutes of "Hardcore Pawn" to know Detroit is no where any civilized human being should live.
If those customers were to make those threats in a business in South Florida it wouldn't be Lester's big black bouncer escorting them out the door, but about 10 Broward County Sheriff officers escorting them to jail.

Those people are mentally deranged, and nobody gives them a second look.

It is worth noting, even at the height of the bubble, Detroit was a screaming BUY on the rent vs. buy calculators. Yet that rental parity did not help the poor buyers who got slaughtered as prices plunged 2007-2012.

Detroit's problem is the continuing population loss. Housing stock for 800K people (circa 1960), and only 600K left (and declining) today. Thus, the rent/buy metric is likely always a screaming BUY because the owner is taking the risk of further price declines as the population continues to decline, whereas the renter ironically pays a premium over buying because he gets to avoid the risk of further price declines.

In any event, its an interesting paradigm. And one of the many reasons why relying solely on the rent vs. buy calculation can be a big mistake.

CDon says

In any event, its an interesting paradigm. And one of the many reasons why relying solely on the rent vs. buy calculation can be a big mistake.

I don't see why it changes the rent vs buy thing. Same house, same neighborhood, same crime rate whether you rent or buy.

Of course I would neither rent nor buy unless the crime rate drops dramatically.

One interesting thing about Detroit is that a lot of Lebanese fled their civil war and started up businesses like gas stations and 7-11's in Detroit. They were used to war, so Detroit didn't seem so bad. Their businesses typically have 2-inch plexiglas between their customers and themselves at the cash registers. Rumors is that they are very heavily armed as well.

I don't see why it changes the rent vs buy thing. Same house, same
neighborhood, same crime rate whether you rent or buy.

Its a proxy on the future direction of prices. Imagine (for whatever reason) you were interested in a neighborhood which you clearly thought was going thru some negative changes, and those negative changes were going to continue for 10 years or so.

As a prospective buyer, you would attempt to price in those future declines now, such that if you sold in year 5 you would not be underwater.

Likewise, it increases your incentives to rent, and to avoid that underwater risk altogether.

Accordingly, places like detroit (where population has been in decline for 40+ years) place a slight premium on renting vs assuming the risk of declines that comes with being an owner.

Hmm, more misinformation here, I see.

#1: In actuality, Metro Detroit has the largest population of Middle Easterners outside of the Middle East. Not just "Lebanese" but many races and ethnic groups start gas stations and liquor stores here because 1) you do not have to pay taxes for 7 years, which is a major tax break within itself 2) the city is more lax on regulations than the rest of the state. Not because they're used to "war zones"--the Hmong community here didn't come from a war zone. Detroit is a goldmine for outsiders looking to start businesses. Please become more knowledgeable before spreading misinformation.

#2: Home prices in Detroit have not bottomed out due to crime. It is because the population has shifted dramatically due to lack of jobs. However, many people still work and play in the city. Retirees, students, artists, entrepreneurs, and even FAMILIES are moving back in--and many of them have great amounts of disposable income. Crime is a major issue in the city, but it is concentrated heavily in certain areas only; it is not widespread. There's just a lot of it happening repeatedly in the same pocket areas.

Huh???
The Hmong didn't come from a war zone?
Are Detroit schools that crappy that you didn't study the Vietnam war or Laotian civil war? The Hmong were a proxy army for the CIA, and faced retribution after US forces left Southeast Asia. Out of belated loyalty they were allowed to settle in the united states.

I agree there is opportunity in Detroit, but don't pretend that being a badass isn't part of the requirements to take advantage of them.

unstoppable says

Huh???

The Hmong didn't come from a war zone?

Are Detroit schools that crappy that you didn't study the Vietnam war or Laotian civil war? The Hmong were a proxy army for the CIA, and faced retribution after US forces left Southeast Asia. Out of belated loyalty they were allowed to settle in the united states.

I agree there is opportunity in Detroit, but don't pretend that being a badass isn't part of the requirements to take advantage of them.

Just like all Latinos, Middle Easterners and others didn't all come from war zones, not everyone in the Hmong community did, either. Some people really came for opportunity--business opportunity is here. Unless you know the entire populations here personally, do not assume.

I never said it was easy, just to do your homework and avoid certain areas for now.

ElenaMo313 says

war zones, not everyone in the Hmong community did, either.

Sure, you can't make a blanket statement that all the Hmong came here from war zones, but being that certainly most came from war zones they are a very poor example of immigrants to the US from non-war zones. They are a classic story of under appreciated US allies that were forced to immigrate after being hounded and abused after US military withdrawal.

ElenaMo313 says

just to do your homework

Yes, please do.

On this note of shithole towns, has anybody ever been to Gary Indiana? I had to stop there once while driving through to fill up my gas tank. Most uncomfortable 5 minutes of my life. I thought I was going to get shot at or killed.

ElenaMo313 says

unstoppable says

Huh???

The Hmong didn't come from a war zone?

Are Detroit schools that crappy that you didn't study the Vietnam war or Laotian civil war? The Hmong were a proxy army for the CIA, and faced retribution after US forces left Southeast Asia. Out of belated loyalty they were allowed to settle in the united states.

I agree there is opportunity in Detroit, but don't pretend that being a badass isn't part of the requirements to take advantage of them.

Just like all Latinos, Middle Easterners and others didn't all come from war zones, not everyone in the Hmong community did, either. Some people really came for opportunity--business opportunity is here. Unless you know the entire populations here personally, do not assume.

I never said it was easy, just to do your homework and avoid certain areas for now.

I didn't claim that all Hmong came from war zones i just pointed out the initial impitus for hmong migration and the fact that they enjoy special immigration status. You stated that the Hmong community in your area didn't come from a war zone. Sure, some may not but many did or came from refuge camps in thailand.

Although I may not know every member of the Hmong community in your area, I did grow up with and go to school with allot of the Hmong in my community. I also have read enough about Hmong history and the history of the US military's involvement in southeast Asia, to confidently refute your previous blanket statement.

Now my question is who are you shilling for? What is your skin in the game? You seem more vociferous than a regular citizen of Detroit repping their home town.

unstoppable says

Now my question is who are you shilling for? What is your skin in the game? You seem more vociferous than a regular citizen of Detroit repping their home town.

I am beginning to suspect this as well.

epitaph says

On this note of shithole towns, has anybody ever been to Gary Indiana? I had to stop there once while driving through to fill up my gas tank. Most uncomfortable 5 minutes of my life. I thought I was going to get shot at or killed.

I haven't been to Gary Indiana, but I drove through Cairo Illinois, holy shit fuck batman, what a trip.

CaptainShuddup says

It's not really the loss of manufacturing base that killed Detroit. It's the exceptionally high probability of being a victim of violent crime. There's a huge racial component to that as well, which is simply not spoken about in polite society or the mainstream press because it so politically incorrect to talk about which race normally attacks which other race and how it's pretty much never the other way around.

All you have to do is watch just 5 minutes of "Hardcore Pawn" to know Detroit is no where any civilized human being should live.

If those customers were to make those threats in a business in South Florida it wouldn't be Lester's big black bouncer escorting them out the door, but about 10 Broward County Sheriff officers escorting them to jail.

Those people are mentally deranged, and nobody gives them a second look.

Hardcore Pawn is hardly a reflection of the individuals who live in the city. And often times, suburbanites are featured on the show as well.

I've been hearing for years of how Detroit is supposedly a burgeoning re-birth city with boat-loads of potential. After my visit I don't see that really happening anytime soon. Yes- it does have somewhat of a bohemian underground art scene. Not enough to make me want to move there.

As already mentioned, a MAJOR problem is that the city has lost 50% of its population from its peak. There are now so many abandoned houses that there is a new term used to describe them: " urban prairies" where entire neighborhoods are abandoned.

Lastly- if you want to invest in something, probably be better off starting a 401k, a coupl'a mutual funds, and even a few CDs and this goes not only for investing in Detroit, but anywhere for that matter. Houses don't make great investments anyway.

Detroit is a place only AF could love.

Buying the entire state of Detroit for 1 bar of gold-plated plastic and turning it into a hunting preserve for the banker scumfucks is a wise investment and good entertainment for the bored wealthy aristocrats as they roam the entire state of Detriot in private helicopters looking for devastated impoverished peasants to shoot extravagantly at with AK-47s as if AMMO is no object for a rich scum.

A few of the slaves are captured and tied from the legs to the helicopter to be tortured as their body slams into the masses of abandoned homes.

Copies of Sheeple Magazine will be sold to the peasants to be fair that they also have something of entertainment. 1 kidney will be removed from a indentured slave serf for every issue they purchase. If they run out of kidneys, we will take it from their little kids and infants.

If someone is interested in investing in rental property in a large city like Detroit, you should check out the demographic data at CityData.com .
Median family income is very low in Detroit, the unemployment rate is very high, and the crime rate is very high. If you plan on going all section 8, maybe things might work out, who knows, but that isn't for everybody.
A better bet might be a city like Indianapolis, which has housing that isn't as cheap but still very affordable, and much, much better demographics. Keep in mind that inner city landlording involves evictions (for non-payment, drug dealing, damages, moving in relatives, etc), repairs due to age of properties (old plumbing and other systems), typically higher crime, etc. You can make a lot of money in inner-city landlording or die trying, it takes a will of iron to overcome some of the problems you can be faced with. To top it off, you can be assaulted by people you show properties to, acquaintances of your tenants, etc. I speak from several decades of experience.

Also check out this:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfisher/2012/10/18/detroit-tops-the-2012-list-of-americas-most-dangerous-cities/

unstoppable says

Now my question is who are you shilling for? What is your skin in the game? You seem more vociferous than a regular citizen of Detroit repping their home town.

The same can be said for all of the anti-Detroit posts, including yours. I started this thread because 1) people are spreading misinformation 2) the city's residents (like myself) need a break from the negativity. You all complain about how bad the city is but when people like myself try to show the city in a more positive light, that, too, is a problem. Make up your mind, but you can't be on both sides.

Robber Baron Elite Scum says

---

Please stop spamming this thread, thanks.

Brentok3 says

If someone is interested in investing in rental property in a large city like Detroit, you should check out the demographic data at CityData.com.

This is good advice, and decent, affordable housing is in high demand in the city. In fact, people are on wait lists for such properties.

edvard2 says

IHouses don't make great investments anyway.

Depends on what you plan to do with them. Most people purchase property that is not in their price range, or they do not research the neighborhood and demographics first. These factors can make any good investment in property go sour.

leo707 says

unstoppable says

Now my question is who are you shilling for? What is your skin in the game? You seem more vociferous than a regular citizen of Detroit repping their home town.

I am beginning to suspect this as well.

Because any positive press about Detroit is vehemently wrong *rolls eyes*

unstoppable says

I also have read enough about Hmong history and the history of the US military's involvement in southeast Asia, to confidently refute your previous blanket statement.

While reading is fundamental, it often doesn't tell the whole story. You cannot base your facts just off of what you read.

ElenaMo313 says

Please stop spamming this thread, thanks.

Please learn the definition of "spam", thanks.

Detroit reminds me of Buffalo NY; they both have a lot of history and a lot of potential but there is not enough people want to move and invest there.

No one wants to live where they don't feel safe.

You are correct. The bad guys in Detroit are some seriously scary badassed motherf*ckers who make Victorville look like a middle school lunchroom.

Check out this footage of one of the scarier Detroit badasses taking on an entire Police precinct. Warning: gun violence.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/mUkdvyGWSqs

ElenaMo313 says

unstoppable says

I also have read enough about Hmong history and the history of the US military's involvement in southeast Asia, to confidently refute your previous blanket statement.

While reading is fundamental, it often doesn't tell the whole story. You cannot base your facts just off of what you read.

Wow
Really you're going to quote me but cut out the first sentence where I mentioned that I grew up with a whole bunch of Hmong kids.

When you're done shilling for your crap investment scheme I'm sure you'll be qualified to work at the out of context quote department, at either msnbc or fox.

ElenaMo313 says

unstoppable says

Now my question is who are you shilling for? What is your skin in the game? You seem more vociferous than a regular citizen of Detroit repping their home town.

The same can be said for all of the anti-Detroit posts, including yours. I started this thread because 1) people are spreading misinformation 2) the city's residents (like myself) need a break from the negativity. You all complain about how bad the city is but when people like myself try to show the city in a more positive light, that, too, is a problem. Make up your mind, but you can't be on both sides.

Damn you got me, I admit it. I'm still bent out of shape about the Pistons bribing the refs and stealing the 1990 NBA finals. I have sworn vengeance on Bill Laimbeer and the city he played for. My insidious plan to crush the Detroit property market by exporting 50% of its manufacturing jobs to China has been a resounding succes. Now all I must do is go on the Internet and punch holes in some anonymous persons incorrect statements about the Hmong diaspora.

Hahaha
Detroit is doomed my evil plot will destroy the motor city and canibal anarchy will reign!

Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Detroit

And um, the "scary" people here are often misguided youth who if they had jobs, would not be pulling these stupid stunts. It is wrong to commit crimes, but people in the city are desperate--there is more to the story than what you all are portraying.

JodyChunder says

No one wants to live where they don't feel safe.

You are correct. The bad guys in Detroit are some seriously scary badassed motherf*ckers who make Victorville look like a middle school lunchroom.

Check out this footage of one of the scarier Detroit badasses taking on an entire Police precinct. Warning: gun violence.

Downtown Detroit and surrounding areas are some of the safest places in the nation, actually. Read this: http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2012/07/10/a-shocking-sight-in-downtown-detroit/

And no city survives without a strong downtown core. By some people seriously investing in Detroit and having this foresight, it will be the right decision in the future. You have to strengthen Detroit's core for the Motor City to have a fighting chance.

unstoppable says

ElenaMo313 says

unstoppable says

I also have read enough about Hmong history and the history of the US military's involvement in southeast Asia, to confidently refute your previous blanket statement.

While reading is fundamental, it often doesn't tell the whole story. You cannot base your facts just off of what you read.

Wow

Really you're going to quote me but cut out the first sentence where I mentioned that I grew up with a whole bunch of Hmong kids.

When you're done shilling for your crap investment scheme I'm sure you'll be qualified to work at the out of context quote department, at either msnbc or fox.

I'm done with you. I actually agree with many posters in this thread that Detroit has its share of problems. But any positive press about Detroit is immediately a "scheme" or "scam"--no wonder this city can't come back. And the thing that irritates me most is that most of you posters live nowhere near Detroit. I don't care if you lived here 20 years or even 2 years ago, you're not here today.

ElenaMo313 says

Depends on what you plan to do with them. Most people purchase property that is not in their price range, or they do not research the neighborhood and demographics first. These factors can make any good investment in property go sour.

Housing in general is not the best investment you can make. All anyone has to do is look up basic performance and returns comparing real estate to stocks. Over the past 100 years stocks have returned around 7-8% per year and real estate 3-4%. Simple.

edvard2 says

ElenaMo313 says

Depends on what you plan to do with them. Most people purchase property that is not in their price range, or they do not research the neighborhood and demographics first. These factors can make any good investment in property go sour.

Housing in general is not the best investment you can make. All anyone has to do is look up basic performance and returns comparing real estate to stocks. Over the past 100 years stocks have returned around 7-8% per year and real estate 3-4%. Simple.

True, and the housing market in general is volatile. I know that there is a demand for quality, affordable housing in Detroit, at least where I am. If you know where to buy, it can turn a good profit for you. But many people are buying without doing their research or knowing what it takes to be a good landlord in Detroit. It's not easy, and it's usually best to consult with a reputable company in the beginning.

Issues of crime aside, I would have a problem buying a house in Detroit because the houses themselves would be so high maintenance. Detroit went through two huge house building eras - the twenties and the fifties. The houses built in the twenties are the tightly packed, multi-story red brick houses that are now tilting and buckling from their own weight - these neighborhoods stretch out for miles from the city center. Most of these neighborhoods are filled with poor people because only poor people would buy them. The houses built in the fifties are the small ranch style homes built for the troops returning from WWII - these homes were, for the most part, not well built, and are now falling apart (although, to be fair, they were probably built better than most of the McMansions of the last decade). There are some very nice neighborhoods with beautiful houses that deserve to be saved, and I think they will survive any massive urban "renewal" plan that will be necessary to rid the city of the crumbling hulks and burned out shells that bring the entire city down.

I've thought about buying properties in Detroit. Even discussed with a buddy of mine who was from Grosse Pointe. We both decided no thanks. Spent 4 years of my life in school in Ann Arbor and went into D Town for Wings and Tigers games, Coney Island, and Windsor. Ann Arbor is a great town, but has some of the most gloomy and depressing weather anywhere. I enjoyed Minneapolis 10x Michigan. No one wants to relocate to a place with bad weather and even worse job prospects. While I enjoyed college, and love the school, Detroit is last on my list of places I would relocate. Sorry...

Waitingtobuy says

I've thought about buying properties in Detroit. Even discussed with a buddy of mine who was from Grosse Pointe. We both decided no thanks. Spent 4 years of my life in school in Ann Arbor and went into D Town for Wings and Tigers games, Coney Island, and Windsor. Ann Arbor is a great town, but has some of the most gloomy and depressing weather anywhere. I enjoyed Minneapolis 10x Michigan. No one wants to relocate to a place with bad weather and even worse job prospects. While I enjoyed college, and love the school, Detroit is last on my list of places I would relocate. Sorry...

This is a joke, right? With temperatures in Minnesota regularly in the single digits? And the car companies on a hiring spree? Detroit is no different from Chicago, Los Angeles, New York, and any other city with a bad part of town - people who can afford it live in the suburbs, and as suburbs go, Detroit's are better than most.

Joe_Mumau says

Detroit is no different from Chicago, Los Angeles, New York, and any other city with a bad part of town - people who can afford it live in the suburbs, and as suburbs go, Detroit's are better than most.

Detroit is very different from those other cities, because the bad part of Detroit is Detroit.

Sure, there are nice, leafy green safe suburbs outside of Detroit proper. But the city itself is pretty much dead.

ElenaMo313 says

And um, the "scary" people here are often misguided youth who if they had jobs, would not be pulling these stupid stunts.

It was a 64 year old man who pulled that scary stunt. I would hate to see what the "misguided youth" are up to.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/12/police-station-shooting-southfield-michigan-shootout_n_2116162.html