patrick.net

"Gun control seems to work quite well to reduce gun deaths in other countries. You know, out there, in the world. "

Yes and then crime rates for other violent crimes go thru the roof.

A woman in Australia is now almost three times more likely to be raped than one in the US.

The fact is that this country is split in two - there are those who look to the State as a religious entity capable of providing all the security and safety they could ever desire, and there are those who believe in personal responsibility.

Unfortunately for those whose faith is placed in the State, that seldom works out so well - over 200 million murdered by their own govts over the last century. When I live in Russia I saw the end result of what happens when your govt murders tens of millions of their own citizens.

And with the NDAA, the Patriot Act, the ongoing murder of children and now American citizens in govt sanctioned drone attacks, a individual citizen would have to be mostly delusional to believe that the govt had any interest in their personal safety.

Kevin, you're sleepwalking on a high wire without a net - you seriously need to wake up man - the world does NOT work the way you think it does. And by the time you figure that out it's going to be far too late.

This thread is a sad commentary on the reading comprehension abilities of pat.net readers.

thunderlips11 says

Video Games actually lower violence by keeping angry young men inside playing WoW, eating doritos and smoking weed, instead of standing near the bus stop harassing people, with knives and 40s in brown bags.

Well I have seen first hand kids graduate from Guitar hero controllers to real guitars and drum sets. I'm sure the same holds true for shoot em up action games.

CaptainShuddup says

Well I have seen first hand kids graduate from Guitar hero controllers to real guitars and drum sets. I'm sure the same holds true for shoot em up action games.

Yes, I remember a time before Guitar hero when kids never picked-up and learned guitars and/or drums; just like before first-person shooters no one did any spree killing.

zzyzzx says

Kevin says

The reason is 3d printers.

I would think the high capacity clips would be the first things printed.

Yep, along with receivers to bypass integral magazines and with modifications to allow full-auto fire.

ducsingle5313 says

I think you would regret it every time you were ass-raped in prison after being prosecuted and sentenced for murder or manslaughter (depending on the jurisdiction).

Actually, no. As a followup I read in the paper that the local police have had special training to deal with this guy. Training that us citizens haven't received. Find me a jury of your peers in the current climate that would convict a guy of defending his family against 2 guys with Bushmasters.

You wouldn't need a jury because the guy would be dead. If two guys with assault rifles show up the best you'll do is kill one of them.

I don't understand these murder fantasies. You have to be a psychopath to spend so much for time thinking up situations where you'll be able to legally kill another person.

Kevin says

I don't understand these murder fantasies. You have to be a psychopath to spend so much for time thinking up situations where you'll be able to legally kill another person.

I don't think that I would classify them all at "murder" fantasies. I think that they are probably a lot more action hero fantasies, with killing as a side dish. That said if someone is going to be carrying a weapon they need to first know how to effectively use it and second understand when using it is OK.

As with any type of training thinking, visualizing and planning what to do beforehand helps to avoid mistakes in a high pressure, no time to think, moment.

I don't think that this makes people who carry a gun all psychopaths.

gbenson says

Find me a jury of your peers in the current climate that would convict a guy of defending his family against 2 guys with Bushmasters.

You should take some time to study the law before you do something really stupid.

According to your original post, the guys with Bushmasters aren't doing anything illegal under your local laws. So your local populace has decided that merely carrying a firearm openly shouldn't be considered threatening. Consequently, by your local standards, you have no reason to perceive their actions as threatening and no right to self defense.

If you pointed a gun at them and ordered them to lie down, that would constitute assault with a deadly weapon: a threat to inflict offensive bodily harm on a person that puts the person in immediate danger of or in apprehension of such harm or contact. And those two Bushmaster toting gentlemen would probably be entitled to defend themselves against your assault by dropping you in a fiery hail of bullets in front of your wife and kids.

And per Kevin's post, you would be pretty dumb to confront two guys armed with Bushmasters, unless you have a death wish.

ducsingle5313 says

According to your original post, the guys with Bushmasters aren't doing anything illegal under your local laws. So your local populace has decided that merely carrying a firearm openly shouldn't be considered threatening. Consequently, by your local standards, you have no reason to perceive their actions as threatening and no right to self defense.

Right, and that was my first thought however...

(emphasis mine)
gbenson says

If I saw two strange guys with assault weapons coming towards my yard, I'd ask them to lie down on the ground and wait for police.

Gbenson did change the scenario to make it more threatening.

Kevin says

I don't understand these murder fantasies. You have to be a psychopath to spend so much for time thinking up situations where you'll be able to legally kill another person.

Or a health insurance claims agent.

kentm says

Gun control seems to work quite well to reduce gun deaths in other countries.

It does not.

You know, out there, in the world.

You know, like in Jamaica. They banned hand guns in 1974, used warrant-less searches to round them up, created special gun courts with secret trials, and imposed mandatory life sentences. Their murder rate increased to 60 per 100,000 and nearly 30 years later 75% of their murders are still committed with guns.

Murders come from economic disparity of which there is less in Europe regardless of an individual country's firearms laws and legal ownership rates (the Swiss have 420,000 machine guns stored in their basements).

drew_eckhardt says

Murders come from economic disparity of which there is less in Europe regardless of an individual country's firearms laws and legal ownership rates (the Swiss have 420,000 machine guns stored in their basements).

Yep, economic disparity seems to be more highly correlated with murder--gun or otherwise--than strict gun control laws.

drew_eckhardt says

Murders come from economic disparity of which there is less in Europe regardless of an individual country's firearms laws and legal ownership rates

do you run around with $5000 cash a week and a gun like a drug dealer ?

seems to me that there is no economic disparity to mention given how
profitable drug dealers make .. thats why they care guns, protect their turf / operations
and kill rival gang members...

leo707 says

gbenson says

If I saw two strange guys with assault weapons coming towards my yard, I'd ask them to lie down on the ground and wait for police.

Gbenson did change the scenario to make it more threatening.

If they were in his yard it might constitute a threat in some jurisdictions as that would likely result in a reasonable apprehension of harm. But "coming towards my yard" indicates they are not on his property and are either on other private property or a public street/sidewalk - - - where apparently they are perfectly within their rights to be packing Bushmasters.

StillLooking says

THere is some dispute about whether this guy was in a gang.

that is why you have massive murders in places like Chicago and Oakland.

NO...
we got no gang problems !
we got no drug trafficking problems !
we got no organized crime problems !

All that has to happen for "gun control to work" is for access to guns without background checks, and access to military grade guns to both significantly decrease.

Regardless of whether homemade guns or pipe bombs or whatever still can be had, the goal is only to slowly decrease the number of gun murders. This can be accomplished with gun control. Especially controlling access via secondary markets and background checks. This would include sales of homemade or 3d printed guns. MAke the penalty extremely high for anyone selling these.

(PLEASE COMPREHEND THAT I AM NOT SAYING GUN CONTROL WILL CAUSE GUN VIOLENCE TO GO TO ZERO OR ANYTHING CLOSE TO ZERO - AND I AM ALSO NOT SAYING IT WILL WORK IMMEDIATELY - IT WOULD TAKE DECADES TO SEE RESULTS)

This is not to dismiss benefits of changing the culture, or better still decreasing the wealth and income gaps, and improving education (also related to socioeconomic well being).

Sane Americans (including about 3/4 of NRA members): "We're totally for sensible common sense restrictions such as background checks, and shutting down the secondary market where criminals buy their guns. We're also okay with restrictions on automatic and some semiauto type military "assault weapons."

Insane paranoid wacko response: "It's another totalitarian takeover !!We need our guns for after WWIII when it's mad max time. This is stalin and mao all over again. AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH !!!

They're coming to take our guns oh my,
They're coming to take me away, HA HA
They're coming to take me away, HO HO HEE HEE HA HA
To the funny farm
Where life is beautiful all the time
And I'll be happy to see
Those nice, young men
In their clean, white coats
And they're coming to take me away, Ha-haaa!

Kevin says

I have zero desire to own a gun and even less to shoot somebody with one.

Just guessing here, but something tells me you're probably a creative person. You see a gun, and you make associations; you see a machine designed for destruction. I am not creative, but I understand.

If you lived in Victorville, I think you would feel differently. I see a well-designed, well-maintained weapon, and I see an economic means for threat mitigation; a last resort buffer between me and the abridged version of things.

Billybigrig says

They can have my gun when they remove it from my cold stiff hands...

I felt that way about gorilla's when they were all over the news.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/gorilla-sales-skyrocket-after-latest-gorilla-attac,30860/

thomaswong.1986 says

do you run around with $5000 cash a week and a gun like a drug dealer ?

seems to me that there is no economic disparity to mention given
how
profitable drug dealers make .. thats why they care guns, protect their
turf / operations
and kill rival gang members...

Low level pushers actually make very little. Freakanomics has a good writeup on the pay of gangs. Regardless, if there were other opportunities available to inner city folks, gangs would not be so appealing. Economic disparity is very much to blame.

tatupu70 says

Freakanomics

What a couple of bozos. I think it was Levitt who made the case in a paper of his that an increase in abortion rates among blacks in the '70s was the primary reason behind a fall in violent crime in the 90s. I'd be wary of anything Levitt or Dubner had to say on any subject.

But I do agree with you about the need for more inner city opportunities to combat the allure of gangs.

"This is not to dismiss benefits of changing the culture"

Making something illegal does not change the culture. Look at drug and alcohol prohibition. It just establishes a new class of "criminals" and a few hard core criminals willing to resort to violence by exploiting the law abiding people and/or fighting with rival criminals.

Do 3D printers print gun powder?
Can 3D printers print bullets?

If I have a super-duper 3D printer I won't care about printing guns.

I will create an army of world domination robots. LOL!

kentm says

Gun control seems to work quite well to reduce gun deaths in other countries.

You know, out there, in the world.

You mean like Cambodia, or Indonesia where rounding up and executing a few million politically inconvenient people was not a problem. How about other ethnic and political purges throughout history?

Thedaytoday says

Do 3D printers print gun powder?

Can 3D printers print bullets?

I doubt it. In fact I suspect that the only gun part that it could make anytime soon which might actually be reliable enough to use would be a high capacity clip.

Thedaytoday says

Do 3D printers print gun powder?

Can 3D printers print bullets?

No, but anyone with the know how to print a gun could mix up some gun powder.

Bullets could be printed as soon as there is a printer that does so in lead; baring that casting bullets is easier than making gun powder.

JodyChunder says

I think it was Levitt who made the case in a paper of his that an increase in abortion rates among blacks in the '70s was the primary reason behind a fall in violent crime in the 90s. I'd be wary of anything Levitt or Dubner had to say on any subject.

I don't think they were saying it was the primary reason, just a big factor in the reduction of crime. I thought they had a pretty compelling argument. The best counter argument I have seen is the recent discussion of lead poisoning:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/07/violent-crime-lead-poisoning-british-export

Here's why guns are good.
Here's a story from my home town. It's about time someone nabs one of those bastards, there's not a day that goes by, there's not at least 2 stories how a clerk got robbed and or shot and killed. I think they should hire off duty cops only for these jobs. The crazy ones with the itchy fingers want a merit of glory but have never once fired their weapon in the line of duty.
I bet that would put a moratorium on armed robberies at convenient stores.

HOLLYWOOD, Fla. (WSVN) -- A would-be robber is dead after being shot by a store clerk at a South Florida gas station.

The shooting sometime around midnight, Tuesday, at the Exxon Mart near South State Road Seven and 52nd Street. Twelve hours later, the investigation still remains active as detectives work to piece together what led to the fatal shooting.

Investigators said two armed robbers barged into the store firing at the store clerk, forcing the clerk to return fire with his own gun. "One tried to rob the gas station, and one was shot by the clerk," said an unidentified employee.

"The clerk was armed, at which point multiple shots were exchanged between the clerk and the suspect; the suspect was struck," said Hollywood Police Sergeant Pablo Venegas.

Police said a homeless man, identified as Hasib Kuric, alerted the store clerk prior to the robbery. "He is alone," said Kuric. "He's maybe not ready. The door was open at the time."

Kuric usually stays inside a U-Haul truck parked behind the Exxon. He said that he noticed something strange going on behind the convenience store at around 11:30 p.m.

He said he watched as the two men put on hooded sweatshirts and masks moments before they rushed into the store. He quickly rushed inside to alert the clerk, a friend Kuric calls Leo. "I tell Leo just lock his door and call police, behind the building is two guys with masks."

Only seconds later, two men rushed in with guns. "Right behind them, before the clerk had called 911, the suspects entered," said Venegas. "They brandished a firearm ... He didn't even have time to call 911 coz that's how quickly it happened."

The wounded would-be robber succumbed to his injuries and died on scene. "It's sad someone died but got to make a living," said the employee.

Police said the second subject, 19-year-old Joshua Stuart, was nabbed a few blocks away in a white getaway car.

Police credit Kuric for saving the clerk's life. "I don't feel like a hero, I just feel happy because I'm still alive," Kuric said.

Other employees were shaken by events that transpired at their job. One man said, "It's kinda scary."

"I was scared," said another when she heard the news.

The store clerk will not face any charges. Stuart faces attempted armed robbery and felony homicide charges, as his accomplice died in the act.

Surveillance video captured all that transpired inside the Exxon Mart. 7News is working on obtaining that footage.

CaptainShuddup says

Here's why guns are good.

We certainly know why they are bad.

Billybigrig says

They can have my gun when they remove it from my cold stiff hands...

Actually, they can have your gun if you carry a small bag of weed on you. So much for gun ownership being a right.

New York legislature passes tighter gun laws

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/01/15/new-york-set-to-pass-tighter-gun-laws/

The new law includes provisions that would:

Change the definition of an assault weapon as one having two “military rifle features” to one.

Ban Internet sales of assault weapons.

Make private sales of assault weapons between anyone besides family members
subject to outside background checks.

Make it a misdemeanor to own a magazine of more than 7 bullets (the previous limit was 10).

Persons owning higher ammunition magazines would have a year to sell them.

Require therapists to report to the state mentally ill patients who they believe may use guns illegally. Authorities could confiscate those patients’ weapons.

Increase sentences for gun crimes.

Thedaytoday says

Make it a misdemeanor to own a magazine of more than 7 bullets (the previous limit was 10).

That is just silly, the 10 limit was fine. You can get a S&W 327 .357 revolver that holds more than 7 shots.

leo707 says

Thedaytoday says

Make it a misdemeanor to own a magazine of more than 7 bullets (the previous limit was 10).

That is just silly, the 10 limit was fine. You can get a S&W 327 .357 revolver that holds more than 7 shots.

They want to frustrate gun manufacturers. It has nothing to do with being sensible.

Peter P says

They want to frustrate gun manufacturers. It has nothing to do with being sensible.

I don't know....It can't be that difficult to just start making clips with lower capacities.

I think they just wanted to feel they were doing something without actually doing anything.

I would be willing to bet they settled on 7 round max because of the 1911.

Thedaytoday says

Require therapists to report to the state mentally ill patients who they believe may use guns illegally. Authorities could confiscate those patients’ weapons.

This sounds like it is the most effective law, in the group, when trying to prevent mass shootings.

They should have also required gun owners with mentally ill family members--and children for that matter--to have secure gun storage.

leo707 says

Peter P says

They want to frustrate gun manufacturers. It has nothing to do with being sensible.

I don't know....It can't be that difficult to just start making clips with lower capacities.

I think they just wanted to feel they were doing something without actually doing anything.

I would be willing to bet they settled on 7 round max because of the 1911.

Now they need a 7-round for NY, a 10-round for CA, and larger ones for other states. Some manufacturers will just give up.

Will there be a return to single stack pistols?

Peter P says

Will there be a return to single stack pistols?

Yeah, with higher calibers, and I would not be surprised if the 1911 increases in popularity.

Single-action semi-autos are scary. :-)