patrick.net

thomaswong.1986 says

First off, nothing deplorable and certainly nothing like the Soviet, German or Italian camps by the enemy. As for Japanese concentration camps in Asia.. none! they simply butchered everyone that came their way.

I didn't say the American concentration camps were the same as the Nazi ones, but they certainly were deplorable. To argue anything otherwise demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge and understanding of history, something that's easily rectify by going to a museum with an exhibit on this atrocity.

Dan8267 says

but they certainly were deplorable.

another ridiculous statement now calling it atrocity..
like WTF do you call Auschwitz.. if not an atrocity.

and now your equating both..

thomaswong.1986 says

And property wasnt confiscated, but asked could be sold to friends or transfered to friends and later claimed back.

Bull-fucking-shit. I work on land that used to be a Japanese farm. It was confiscated during WWII and never given back to the rightful owners, who were impoverished. An entire colony of Japanese farmers were evicted from the land and it was used by the Army Air Forces for radar trading.

The land was never returned to the Japanese. It later became the IBM site where the first PCs were built and OS/2 developed. Today it's a commercial park. I know the history and you are just wrong when you say that the American government did not steal land from Japanese Americans during WWII.

thomaswong.1986 says

another ridiculous statement now calling it atrocity..

like WTF do you call Auschwitz.. if not an atrocity.

and now your equating both..

thomaswong, you are the most retarded person on this site. Comparing one atrocity to another and saying one is worse therefore the other isn't an atrocity at all is just plain stupid.

Furthermore, I'm not equating those two things. I stating that the American concentration camps for Japanese Americans were in themselves an atrocity and utterly deplorable. It was completely racist and inhuman. There were no "German-American" camps. It was pure fucking racism. And the fact that this was done to American citizens is completely unforgivable. And the fact that the victims, some of whom are still alive today, are still not compensated for this crime is deplorable.

Finally, my point that things would have ended far worse for these people had they been heavily armed still stands.

If you want to have a real debate, you need to stop making Straw Men.

http://www.umwa.org/?q=content/ludlow-massacre

I love the part when the government takes the atrocity it committed and tries to mitigate its role by turning the site of the massacre into a "historic landmark" as if that makes the state the good guy again.

Dan8267 says

I know the history and you are just wrong when you say that the American government did not steal land from Japanese Americans during WWII.

no .. you are wrong. and you only give an example of confiscation of one piece of land due to the war which happen to been by Japanese owners. There was no wide govt policy which would indicate all Japanese property was confiscated.

BullShit on you !

There were other nations that also interned the Japanese.. all for good reasons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Canadian_internment

Dan8267 says

There were no "German-American" camps

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_internment

German American Internment refers to the detention of German and German-American citizens in the United States during World War I and World War II. Unlike the Japanese Americans who were interned during World War II, these internees have never received an apology or reparations

Dan8267 says

Ludlow Massacre

pack your bags and leave CO if you didnt like what was going on.

Dan8267 says

Furthermore, I'm not equating those two things.

what do you call Auschwitz but an atrocity.. you have a different word you use ?

thomaswong.1986 says

no .. you are wrong. and you only give an example of confiscation of one piece of land due to the war which happen to been by Japanese owners. There was no wide govt policy which would indicate all Japanese property was confiscated.

You want more?

http://www.fear.org/RMillerJ-A.html

Lieutenant General John L. DeWitt, who directed the roundup of Japanese-Americans, said most victims "voluntarily" sold their automobiles to the U.S. Army--which was holding the cars' owners in custody. Cars not "voluntarily" sold to the Army were seized by the Army. The military then resold 1942 models to automobile dealers so they would have merchandise to offer (the auto industry having converted to war work).36 If victims drove to an assembly center in their cars, the vehicles were confiscated upon arrival.37 Farm equipment went for five and ten cents on the dollar.38 "It is just common knowledge," said one observer. The observer noted a scam in which a Japanese-American would receive a fake telephone call allegedly from the FBI, military, or police saying to pack for immediate departure; later in the day a buyer would appear on the victim's doorstep.39 "In the few days allowed the evacuees before their eviction, bargain hunters and junk dealers descended in hordes. The frightened and confused became easy prey to swindlers who threatened to 'arrange' for the confiscation of their property if they would not agree to a forced sale at the pittance offered."40 Governmental authorities outright confiscated assorted minor personal possessions; in February 1942 San Francisco's police chief said his department was holding 6,000 radios and cameras taken from Japanese-Americans.41 Such items did not have to be seized in raids; owners turned them in on demand. Berkeley's police chief noted, "In about 3 days I believe over 400 different aliens brought in property worth thousands of dollars. Some of it was very bulky."42

http://www.nps.gov/nhl/themes/JPNAmericanTS.pdf

Nihon Go Gakko (Japanese Language School) – Seattle, King County, Washington
Property Type: Places associated with exclusion
Established in 1902, this is the oldest functioning Japanese language school in the continental United
States. Located on the outskirts of Seattle’s Japantown, it consists of three buildings constructed
between 1913 and 1920. The language school was closed and the property confiscated by the Federal
government in 1942; school facilities were subsequently used for training Army Air Forces personnel.
Some Japanese American graduates of the school served with the armed forces, and helped interrogate
prisoners and translate captured documents. After the war, many evacuees returned from the camps to
Seattle but housing was scarce. For three years, twenty-seven families lived in the classrooms of the
language school. The Seattle Nihon Go Gakko was listed in the National Register in 1982.
Recommendation: This property should be studied for possible NHL designation.

http://www.sfmuseum.org/hist9/harvest.html

Of the 200,000 acres confiscated or sold under duress, the Wartime Civil Control Administration estimated, in April 1942, that nearly 43,000 acres were still available for new operators, and crops on 21 per cent of the total acreage subject to evacuation might be lost if substitute operators were not found soon. This would suggest that removal of the Japanese farmers was not in the best short-term interest of the United States and may have actually hurt the war effort.

Shit like this happened all over the country. Do a Google search. Better yet, educate yourself by going to a museum with an exhibit on the Japanese-American experience during WWII.

Ignorance is not a form of patriotism.

thomaswong.1986 says

Dan8267 says

Ludlow Massacre

pack your bags and leave CO if you didnt like what was going on.

This post perfectly sums up why you are an utter asshole. Your not even worth arguing with. If your attitude towards the gunning down and burning alive of innocent American men, women, and children is leave Colorado if you don't like it, then your opinions don't count for shit.

Dan8267 says

IDDQD says

Dan8267 says

Not RT News.

You are aware that it's fully funded by Russian federal budget?

Yes, I'm also aware that the news is true, accurate, and far better than anything on American T.V. Like it or not, RT News in Washington is extremely good news regardless of where its funding comes from. You cannot say the same about Fox, CNN, or MSNBC, especially fucking Fox.

Just because you agree with something doesn't make it "true" or "accurate".

Kevin says

Just because you agree with something doesn't make it "true" or "accurate".

Absolutely. What makes something true and accurate is that it corresponds to reality, unlike Fox News. And RT News does, at least every bit of RT News I've watched, and I've watch quite a bit of RT News America.

I know RT News is accurate and true because I can independently verify the news it reports. That's what so fucking great about living in the information age.

Now, if you believe RT News is lying about stuff, feel free to go through all the YouTube videos of RT News I've linked to and point out specific falsehoods. The Daily Show and the Colbert Report do exactly this same thing to Fox News every day.

Dan8267 says

Ignorance is not a form of patriotism.

are you ready to post disclaimer on the German American internment camps ?

IDDQD says

Dan8267 says

Armed civilians have never, ever, ever worked in the entire history of America

Not even in Athens, TN in 1946?

At least this is somewhat close to an example, but not quite.

1. The "civilians" were all recent ex-soldiers who had access to the National Guard armory. Not exactly a civilian militia with only civilian resources.

http://constitution.org/mil/tn/batathen.htm

By borrowing keys to the National Guard and State Guard Armories, they got three M-1 rifles, five .45 semi-automatic pistols, and 24 British Enfield rifles.

2. The local jail was heavily out-armed by the GIs. The exact opposite would be the case today with even local police forces having assault weapons.

Three GIs - alerting passersby to danger - were fired on from the jail. Two GIs were wounded. Other GIs returned fire. Those inside the jail mainly used pistols; they also had a "tommy gun" (a .45 caliber Thompson sub-machine gun).

3. The national guard was never called in precisely because this was just after WWII and the "militia" was composed entirely of GIs.

Governor McCord mobilized the State Guard, perhaps to scare the GIs into withdrawing. The State Guard never went to Athens. McCord may have feared that Guard units filled with ex-GIs might not fire on other ex-GIs.

4. The federal government backed the GIs, not local law enforcement, because this was just an isolated, hick town with an obviously corrupt sheriff. This fact is made evident both by the lack of prosecution by the state and by Eleanor Roosevelt's own comments which basically stated that the GIs were in the right. But in this age of "the war on terror", would the federal government back up a militia going against local law enforcement? Probably not.

Nevertheless, I did enjoy this story and I wish the military and ex-military actually did stand up against local injustices like this and national injustices like the Patriot Act and the NDAA, but today they simply don't do this. And today even local law enforcement would be able to call in help from many other resources. Multiple SWATT teams would have responded to combat the GIs if this were to happen today.

thomaswong.1986 says

are you ready to post disclaimer on the German American internment camps ?

Congradufuckulations. You googled every single thing I said and manage to find one incorrect statement. Yes, I did not know that German Americans were arrested and imprisoned without cause during WWII. Neither did you or anyone else on this site. It's not common knowledge, as opposed to the detainment camps of Japanese Americans during WWII, which is well-known because it happened on such a massive scale.

And yes, I would call the treatment of these German Americans deplorable and a crime against human rights. This, however, does not undermine any point that I have made including:

1. Japanese-Americans property and land was confiscated either out right or by strong-arming.

2. Japanese-Americans were never compensated for this injustice.

3. The imprisonment of Japanese-Americans and the confiscation of their property and land was due mostly to greed and racism.

4. Had the Japanese-Americans fought back with guns, they would have been slaughtered.

Vicente says

Because you know, the ravaging Mad Max hordes will target Idaho, it's obvious!

Not a terribly bad design for a zombie apocalypse, but the outer wall needs to be thicker, there needs to be a second gate pair at the other side for emergencies, the interior between the two walls needs to be partitioned into two sections (front and back).

Dan8267 says

Kevin says

Just because you agree with something doesn't make it "true" or "accurate".

Absolutely. What makes something true and accurate is that it corresponds to reality, unlike Fox News. And RT News does, at least every bit of RT News I've watched, and I've watch quite a bit of RT News America.

I know RT News is accurate and true because I can independently verify the news it reports. That's what so fucking great about living in the information age.

Now, if you believe RT News is lying about stuff, feel free to go through all the YouTube videos of RT News I've linked to and point out specific falsehoods. The Daily Show and the Colbert Report do exactly this same thing to Fox News every day.

Nope, sorry.

The problem with outlets like RT News, China Daily, etc. isn't that they lie -- it's that they only publish stories that support the narrative that they're trying to create. They commit lies of omission. It's propaganda 101, and the Russians and Chinese are experts at it.

The fact that they're state-run news agencies says everything.

I've worked for news organizations before. There was always some agenda, but it didn't come from any government official. Mostly it came from not wanting to alienate advertisers.

Lets say that there was a man who saved 5 people from a burning building, raised a dozen orphans, saved a stranger's life by donating a kidney, and runs a charity that builds schools in Africa.

The guy also once got arrested for public intoxication.

A news paper decides to publish the public intoxication story, but none of the rest. The public's impression is that this guy is a drunken asshole.

Did they lie? Nope. Did they tell the truth? Nope.

If you want a non-US news source that generally prints the truth (and the whole truth) without much obvious bias, try the likes of Al Jazeera, not RT News.

Yes, the big 3 cable news companies are shitty news in general, but they're just generic corporate news. There are literally thousands of other sources of news, and very few of them are as awful as the ones you're referring to.

By the way -- not that many people actually watch cable news. They get a lot of attention because they're, collectively, the single largest news source, but they're still tiny, with fewer than 5% of americans ever tuning into any one of those cable news channels. They're irrelevant.

Dan8267 says

It's not common knowledge, as opposed to the detainment camps of Japanese Americans during WWII, which is well-known because it happened on such a massive scale.

was not an atrocity as you state.. and not a big deal since many were treated well enough given the times. the USA govt didnt butcher the JA as the Japanese and German Govts butchered their detained citizens. So your pathetic comments are worthless.

there was every reason to detain actual and suspected citizens and agents of foreign powers. may well have saved 10,000s of others since we already found spies and were attacked at both ends by foreign submarines. Worth it as history has shown Japan was a Militaristic fascist society based on their past history. Fact is they were and still are much more racists than western societies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Japanese_spies,_1930-1945

Dan8267 says

1. Japanese-Americans property and land was confiscated either out right or by strong-arming.

2. Japanese-Americans were never compensated for this injustice.

3. The imprisonment of Japanese-Americans and the confiscation of their property and land was due mostly to greed and racism.

You think the Japanese Govt thought about this when they attacked Pearl Harbor and started WWII. Though shit ...

thomaswong.1986 says

You think the Japanese Govt thought about this when they attacked Pearl Harbor and started WWII. Though shit ...

What does the Japanese government have to do with how we treated American citizens?

Kevin says

There was always some agenda, but it didn't come from any government official. Mostly it came from not wanting to alienate advertisers.

This is exactly right. There are a few really truly great news resources out there, but I don't think agenda-free news exists anymore, if ever it did.

Kevin says

The problem with outlets like RT News, China Daily, etc. isn't that they lie -- it's that they only publish stories that support the narrative that they're trying to create.

You mean exactly like every other news organization ever? In any case, RT News covers things that should be covered by other news outlets.

Kevin says

The fact that they're state-run news agencies says everything.

One can say the exact same thing about corporate-run news agencies. So, no it doesn't.

The thing about misinformation is that you should be able to demonstrate that it is misinformation as oppose to just saying the source is bad. If you need examples, watch The Daily Show. They demonstrate the misinformation of cable news, particularly Fox, is vivid detail.

In contrast, your argument that RT News is bad because it comes from the state of Russia is not a convincing argument. You should be able to show that RT News is bad with actual evidence that has nothing to do with where it comes from.

Kevin says

They commit lies of omission.

Lies of omission are the easiest lies to expose. For example, recently the entire Fox News propaganda machine took a sound bite from Hilary Clinton's testimony to imply that she was saying that there should be no investigation into what caused the security failure in the embassy bombing. Jon Stewart played the very next sentence out of Clinton's mouth which showed she was stating the exact opposite. Fox News is exposed as the propaganda machine targeting idiots that it is.

Again, go through every RT News story I've posted and point out the alleged "lies of omissions". This should be damn easy if what you are saying is correct. And if you actually do this, I will agree with you. But I'm not going to take your opinion at its face value since every independent check of the facts behind the stories of RT News I've ever conducted has confirmed the accuracy and completeness of the story.

I'm just calling them like I see them. I've got no stake in either side.

thomaswong.1986 says

the USA govt didnt butcher the JA as the Japanese and German Govts butchered their detained citizens.

No one ever claimed that. That's a Straw Man argument.

And if you're counter-argument is, America isn't as bad as Nazi Germany, well, that's a weak ass argument that America does not commit any atrocities.

- America has committed genocide: the Native Americans.
- America has committed slavery for over 100 years under our country's rule.
- America has committed systematic arrest and sterilization of ethnic groups.
- America has targeted innocent, noncombatant civilians in war including children.
- America has used weapons of mass destruction including nuclear and chemical.
- America has violate the basic right of habeas corpus, a cornerstone of Western Civilization since the Magna Carta.
- America has tortured.
- America has used rape and sexual humiliation as weapons.

To say that the America government has never behaved tyrannically is ridiculous.

Kevin says

thomaswong.1986 says

You think the Japanese Govt thought about this when they attacked Pearl Harbor and started WWII. Though shit ...

What does the Japanese government have to do with how we treated American citizens?

In petty and childish minds, the atrocities committed by one side excuse all atrocities committed by the other side even those committed against innocent citizens who aren't even affiliated with the first side.

Dan, without even trying, you should have at least come across this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_(TV_network)#News_coverage

The stories that they choose NOT to cover says more to me about a news organization than the ones they do.

I don't know why you keep using Fox news as the baseline. Fox News is a hack company designed to cater to conservative americans. Nobody takes them seriously as a news organization. They're a step below CNN and MSNBC, and those are miles below actual news organizations.

Saying that somebody is no worse than / slightly better than Fox News is like saying that Stalin was an OK guy because at least he wasn't Hitler.

Dan8267 says

Not a terribly bad design for a zombie apocalypse, but the outer wall needs to be thicker, there needs to be a second gate pair at the other side for emergencies, the interior between the two walls needs to be partitioned into two sections (front and back).

Oh you can count on there being secret escape tunnels from the dozens of underground bunkers. If there's one thing you can count on with these folks, it's they like cellars and tunnels!

Problems are numerous. Castle and fortress designs were a good solution right up until the invention of explosives. At this point it's a huge waste of redneck money. But I suppose it's no dumber than some other things Uh-mericans spend money on.

I like pointing people to this Siberian family, to knock some of their survivalist fantasies down a peg:

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/For-40-Years-This-Russian-Family-Was-Cut-Off-From-Human-Contact-Unaware-of-World-War-II-188843001.html

Kevin says

Dan, without even trying, you should have at least come across this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_(TV_network)#News_coverage

Wikipedia is worth than worthless. It's so full of misinformation and propaganda from both governments and corporations that a person is better off avoiding even looking at it. Wikipedia will steer you the wrong way even with its references on any issue where money, politics, or reputations are on the line.

If Wikipedia were around during the early 1940s, all references to the Holocaust would have been removed as not neutral point of view.

Vicente says

Oh you can count on there being secret escape tunnels from the dozens of underground bunkers. If there's one thing you can count on with these folks, it's they like cellars and tunnels!

But no! That's exactly how the zombies always get IN a secure compound: through tunnels and sewers. That's exactly what you don't want.

It's much better to have just two entrances/exits that are far apart on opposite sides of a divider. Finally, have a nice Dirigible for those situations when the two exits are both compromised at the same time.

Vicente says

Problems are numerous. Castle and fortress designs were a good solution right up until the invention of explosives. At this point it's a huge waste of redneck money.

Yeah, I've been trying to get into the mind of the people who think that the minute men are going to save America from tyranny. The only explanation I can come up with is that they grew up on Westerns and they have a cowboy fantasy that they never got over. So they think that modern America is like the Wild West and the things that people got away with back then, like evading the law and living in the mountain, are still practical.

Meanwhile, reality has become as different from the Wild West as the Wild West was from antiquity. Government surveillance is everywhere. Privacy is dead. The capacity of the government to commit violence is beyond the wildest imagination of the cowboys. The asymmetry of power between governments and their civilian populations has grown exponentially over the past one hundred fifty.

Dan, cops don't show up on time, they show up after the shooting is over and you and your family are dead. Another good reason to have a gun.

Might not save every life, but sure will save some. You know there are examples out there. These people can't even control their own officers from going around on shooting rampages, they sure as hell ain't touching my guns.

FortWayne says

Dan, cops don't show up on time, they show up after the shooting is over and you and your family are dead. Another good reason to have a gun.

No so funny of a story. The one shooting that I did happen upon while it was in progress I quickly turned and went the other way. I did see a cop at the end of the block and when I told him that someone was getting shot he said, "I know I am waiting for backup."

FortWayne says

These people can't even control their own officers from going around on shooting rampages, they sure as hell ain't touching my guns.

I think that the question here is not so much of whether or not you should own guns, but is stopping tyranny a valid justification for a right to own guns.

Hell, I can think of a lot of reasons why people should be able to own guns, and a couple of decades ago fighting tyranny might have been a valid reason, but no more.

Whatever, Dan. You're going to trust a Russian government owned publication with zero transparency over Wikipedia, which has a full edit history available, and has had study after study done on it that shows it to be more balanced than *any* other information source?

Why not just say that you implicitly trust whatever you happen yo agree with?

I used Wikipedia because if I showed you the articles that were published elsewhere you'd just say that you don't trust them.

You're a crackpot.

FortWayne says

Dan, cops don't show up on time, they show up after the shooting is over and you and your family are dead. Another good reason to have a gun.

Yes, that's a good argument for a gun. However, it has nothing to do with militias. I reject the proposal that gun control laws are bad because they prevent militias from saving us from the federal government. That doesn't mean I reject all pro-gun arguments.

I also accept the argument that gun control doesn't prevent criminals from gaining access to guns. However, there is some evidence that it reduces the amount of guns available.

However, on the pro-gun-control side, there's a valid argument that a gun in the household with kids is more likely to result in the kid shooting himself than the parents shooting an armed intruder.

Kevin says

ou're going to trust a Russian government owned publication with zero transparency over Wikipedia

I would trust anything over Wikipedia just based on the propaganda I've seen on it including removing references to presidents being against women's suffrage during the early 20th century, removal of content about Guantanamo Bay during the Bush administration, removal of content about unpublished Canadians laws that people were arrested for, etc.

I've challenged you time and again, to go back to the RT News videos I've linked to on this site and point out any falsehood including lies of omission. You have pussied out every single time. Why would I take your word when you refuse to site one specific lie of omission or any other kind in any of the RT News videos I've posted?

Again, if you actually did demonstrate a significant and deliberate lie of omission, then I'd accept your case. The fact that you haven't speaks volumes more than Propogandapedia.

Kevin says

You're a crackpot.

You're welcome to prove this conjecture. However, calling me a crackpot certainly does not instill me with any faith that you have an informed opinion about anything.

We as a nation need to stop labeling people as crackpots if they stand up for their principles.

FortWayne says

We as a nation need to stop labeling people as crackpots if they stand up for their principles.

I agree. Even if someone is undeniably proven wrong on any given topic, that does not make them a crackpot. Things get even fuzzier on topics as they get more complicated and where the answer is not so clear. However, the needle on the crackpot meter starts to edge towards "full on" when denial is the response to sound reasoning backed by clear evidence. Also, we do indeed live in a world where crackpots exist and the internet seems to give them much more of a voice than standing on a soapbox in Speakers' Corner in Hyde Park.

As far as Dan goes I have seen him admit fallibility on a few occasions when faced with evidence contrary to his opinions.

leo707 says

As far as Dan goes I have seen him admit fallibility on a few occasions when faced with evidence contrary to his opinions.

And that's all we can ask of anyone.

Dan8267 says

However, on the pro-gun-control side, there's a valid argument that a gun in the household with kids is more likely to result in the kid shooting himself than the parents shooting an armed intruder.

Whenever I have looked at the studies that show that, the vast majority of the homes where the kids are getting accidentally shot are homes with other problems: domestic abuse, criminal activity, alcohol/drug abuse, etc.

Even with that said I think that any home with gun(s)+kids should be required to have any and all guns locked at all times when there is not an adult directly supervising. Because of my kids I do not currently keep any guns loaded and unlocked. However, I have been shopping around for one of those quick access handgun gun safes (anyone have experience or a recommendation for one of these?).

I think that every parent--during all the other giving birth/hospital discharge stuff--should be made plainly aware of the dangers of unlocked guns. In the piles of booklets and pamphlets there was all kinds of advice on child proofing, etc. I don't recall a single mention of guns, or anyone at the hospital mentioning guns. Our pediatrician did ask if when had guns and the conversation was about 5 seconds:

Pediatrician: "Do you have guns in the house?"

Us: "Yes."

Pediatrician: "Are they locked?"

Us: "Yes."

Pediatrician: "OK."

And that was all.

Dan8267 says

point out any falsehood including lies of omission.

FWIW -- off the top of my head, they didn't really cover the Putin protests at all. I don't recall any coverage of or even a mention of the Pussy Riot trial, either.

I like RT, by the way. I like the BBC better, though!

Forget Russia specific issues. Read their coverage on Syria. Its practically a transcription of Russian government officials statements on the conflict.