patrick.net

Dan,

Speaking as one of the alums, I can assure you that the engineering professors and engineering students and alums of the specific schools are usually the exact opposite of the liberal city background that you are citing. For example, Cambridge, MA registered Democrats outnumber registered Republicans 12:1, but almost the entirety of that "1" is related to MIT and Harvard, especially MIT.

The top universities bring prosperity and commerce to the cities that they are located in. That in turn bring in many many hangers-on's. A top rate engineer can create at least 10 if not 100 or 1000 jobs by his creativity. His political view however is quite likely out-numbered by the very numerous people who work for him.

In those liberal cities, the dominant religious dogma is the Omnipotent Government-God. It takes a thinker to be skeptical of that state religion.

Reality says

In those liberal cities, the dominant religious dogma is the Omnipotent Government-God. It takes a thinker to be skeptical of that state religion.

This thread has veered far from the OP, which was a misleading waste of time, into a re-visitation of the changing meanings of "liberal" vs "conservative". The founders of the republic considered themselves liberal, by which they meant they believed in letting other people live their own lives in accord with their own beliefs and without government interference. Since then, liberal has morphed into coercive false generosity, e.g. Obamacare, where the real beneficiaries are the politicians and their patronage networks. Meanwhile, conservative, which used to mean conserving resources and limiting government, has morphed into deficit spending, war all over the world and Christian fundamentalist theocracy at home. People who voted for W are called "conservative," even though he was a reckless deficit spender, while people who support Obamacare are called liberal, even though it is a corporate and federal takeover of American health. These words have lost all meaning, so the thread has come full circle and is once again a misleading waste of time.

curious2 says

The founders of the republic considered themselves liberal, by which they meant they believed in letting other people live their own lives in accord with their own beliefs and without government interference.

That's still the definition.

curious2 says

Since then, liberal has morphed into coercive false generosity

That's socialism, not liberalism.

curious2 says

Meanwhile, conservative, which used to mean conserving resources and limiting government

Yep, back when conservatism was a respectable philosophy. Of course, liberalism and conservatism went hand-in-hand back then.

curious2 says

conservative... has morphed into deficit spending, war all over the world and Christian fundamentalist theocracy at home.

Yep, conservatism today is just code for bigotry and chicken-hawk war profiteering.

Previous discussions on the meaning of liberalism...
http://patrick.net/?p=1221781&c=935435#comment-935435
http://patrick.net/?p=1221781&c=935591#comment-935591
http://patrick.net/?p=1221781&c=935435#comment-935435

A key leader in the black community and a driving force in support of the lawsuit, who wishes to remain anonymous, bemoaned the “disturbing tendency of black electorates to not elect the smartest and brightest, or even the cleverest.”

Why should anyone be surprised? Our own stupid government requires us all to use race, creed, religion, sex or national origin as a number one factor for everything we do today.

Dan8267 says

Yep, conservatism today is just code for bigotry and chicken-hawk war profiteering.

Then you are just engaging in pointless straw man tactic. "Liberalism" removed from its roots in personal liberty is an even worse collectivist nightmare

I see Liberals still like to blame Bush. When are you going to take responsibility for the failure that Obama is?

Reality says

Dan8267 says

Yep, conservatism today is just code for bigotry and chicken-hawk war profiteering.

Then you are just engaging in pointless straw man tactic. "Liberalism" removed from its roots in personal liberty is an even worse collectivist nightmare

If I am making a Straw Man argument, you should be able to demonstrate that easily using the same form that I have used to demonstrate countless Straw Man arguments on this site. Simply yelling Straw Man at your opponent is not a counter-argument. That's ironically a Straw Man tactic itself.

zzyzzx says

I see Liberals still like to blame Bush. When are you going to take responsibility for the failure that Obama is?

I will always blame Hitler for the Holocaust. No amount of time will change that.

I will always blame Bush for the human rights violations and crimes against humanity he committed. No amount of time will change that.

I do blame Obama for his numerous failures. That blows away your theory that liberals don't blame Obama for things he is responsible for. I will not blame Obama for being a secret Kenyan Muslim socialist because he is not.

Dan8267 says

Dishonesty and stupidity are completely different attributes. Obama, Clinton, and Biden are not morons regardless of their honesty.

And as for anyone on the left in the last Democratic primary, there was Dennis Kucinich. You and I may disagree with his economic philosophy, but he is honest, not a moron, and he is good on both civil and human rights.

Also, Al Gore, although certainly not the genius he was made out to be, is vastly more intelligent that 99% of the politicians in Congress or the White House over the past 30 years.

Dan the problem with liberals like you (not all liberals, but just ones like yourself) are that you like to make black and white distinctions, as if you had borderline personality disorder. You think one side is good and the other side is bad. Liberals are smart, conservatives are dumb. Liberals are good, conservatives are bad. Liberals care about the middle and lower classes, conservatives care for corporations and the rich.

If you disagree with that I said, look at the moronic statements you posted below..

Dan8267 says

Liberals like me created the advanced technologies, not corporations. Individual engineers, human beings, are responsible for every single technological advancement ever made.

Furthermore, we engineers tend be to damn liberal and graduate from liberal colleges like MIT, CalTech, Berkeley. There aren't too many engineers coming out of the Jimmy Swaggart Bible College.

Smart, educated people tend to be rational, liberal, science-oriented atheists whether you like it or not. I'm the perfect example of this.

Dan8267 says

Engineers are thinkers. Thinkers are liberals. Religious nuts are not thinkers. Religious nuts are conservatives.

Based on your philosophy, the world is good because of smart people. Smart people are nearly all liberals. Based on your quotes you also illustrate conservatives to be religious nuts and nothing else. WTF? are you serious?

The fact of the matter is that our politicians regardless of what side of the aisle they sit, are full of dumb, dishonest, irrational people. In fact I would argue that the percentage of dumb dishonest irrational politicians are about equal on either side of the aisle.

ALthough you claim to be a "smart" engineer.... based on your previous comments and generalizations I find you all but smart and rather moronic.
Dan8267 says

Smart, educated people tend to be rational, liberal, science-oriented atheists whether you like it or not. I'm the perfect example of this.

SOrry bro you are not a perfect example of this...

Reality says

Dan8267 says

Yep, conservatism today is just code for bigotry and chicken-hawk war profiteering.

Then you are just engaging in pointless straw man tactic. "Liberalism" removed from its roots in personal liberty is an even worse collectivist nightmare

100% agree... liberals have forgotten their past and strayed away from their roots...

Dan8267 says

I do blame Obama for his numerous failures. That blows away your theory that liberals don't blame Obama for things he is responsible for

SO what do you blame obama for?

Dan8267 says

If I am making a Straw Man argument, you should be able to demonstrate that easily using the same form that I have used to demonstrate countless Straw Man arguments on this site. Simply yelling Straw Man at your opponent is not a counter-argument. That's ironically a Straw Man tactic itself.

I already pointed out the vacuous nature of your so-called "form." In the latest exercise of your "form" you assumed the the political leaning of a city must reflect the top university there; that is obviously false. The very top example you gave was MIT in Cambridge, when MIT engineers are about the only registered Republicans (besides some Harvard Republicans) in a city that is 12:1 in registered D to R ratio.

It simply wrong to bifurcate the society into liberals vs. conservatives, and ascribe all that is good and holy to one, and evil to the other. I'm not particularly fond of religious zealots, but the zealots of the Government-God religion are even worse. In fact, there may be historical evidence that Monotheism myth was invented as a check and balance on the Government-God myth.

Meccos says

SO what do you blame obama for?

Obamacare, but the Republicans in 2012 nominated the only other person in America who ever signed the same thing, which was then called Romneycare. And, although he promised during the primaries to repeal Obamacare "on day one," after getting nominated he developed "Romnesia" and said he would keep parts of it. Looking at the record, I have to agree with most American voters that the Republicans in 2012 were much worse. And, returning to the OP, white voters were the only color where Republicans got a majority - which only shows what everybody already knew, i.e. that white voters don't always elect the best people either.

Meccos says

Dan the problem with liberals like you (not all liberals, but just ones like yourself) are that you like to make black and white distinctions, as if you had borderline personality disorder.

I love it when people presume they know what goes on in my mind. It demonstrates that a simple mind will always see simplicity in a complex system.

I tend to visualize things as a large dimensional vector space rather than the line that most people see. The truth is often orthogonal to the arbitrary left-right axis. I don't see just black and white, or just 3D colors. I see many hundreds of dimensions in the political space. But hey, if reducing my paradigm to just "black and white distinctions" makes you feel better, go right ahead. I'd love to hear some examples of these "black and white" things you are talking about.

Meccos says

You think one side is good and the other side is bad. Liberals are smart, conservatives are dumb. Liberals are good, conservatives are bad. Liberals care about the middle and lower classes, conservatives care for corporations and the rich.

Actually, what I said is that smart people tend to be liberals. But don't take my word for it.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100224132655.htm
http://www.quora.com/Why-do-scientists-tend-to-have-liberal-progressive-views
http://menghusblog.wordpress.com/2012/07/11/intelligent-people-are-more-liberal-but-not-among-the-less-educated-gss/
http://digitaljournal.com/article/288111
http://www.theliberaloc.com/2011/08/23/psychology-today-liberals-are-smarter/

Oh, there I go again playing the evidence card like a moron. It's just that it's so fucking easy to gather all this evidence since this horse has been beaten to death. Yes, liberals in general are smarter than conservatives. That's a fact regardless of how much you hate this truth. Now that doesn't mean that becoming a liberal will make you smarter. It's actually the intelligence that's the cause and liberalism that's the effect.

And again, liberalism has nothing to do with leftism, socialism, or the Democratic Party.

Meccos says

Based on your quotes you also illustrate conservatives to be religious nuts and nothing else. WTF? are you serious?

Between 30% and 80% of religious conservative Americans believe that
- Creationism, not evolution, explains how life became what we see
- The sun revolves around the Earth
- Obama is a Muslim
- Witchcraft is real
- Demonic possessions are real
- Prayer can cure diseases

Try finding an atheist who believes any of the above crap.

Meccos says

The fact of the matter is that our politicians regardless of what side of the aisle they sit, are full of dumb, dishonest, irrational people

And no one would argue with that. However, based on ample empirical evidence, today's Republicans in Congress are dumber than their Democratic counterparts. Do I really need to quote Todd Akin or Ted Stevens? And the median Republican voter is dumber than the median Democratic voter, and given the "news" they listen to, that's not surprising…

http://www.youtube.com/embed/wb3AFMe2OQY
00:01:50 mark

http://www.youtube.com/embed/a5dSyT50Cs8

Meccos says

ALthough you claim to be a "smart" engineer.... based on your previous comments and generalizations I find you all but smart and rather moronic.

I'm sorry, you must have me mistaken with someone who gives a damn about your opinion.

Meccos says

Dan8267 says

I do blame Obama for his numerous failures. That blows away your theory that liberals don't blame Obama for things he is responsible for

SO what do you blame obama for?

If you paid any attention to what I have actually written on this site over the past four years, you wouldn't have to ask that question. I have been the most vocal opponent of Obama on this site, by far. And unlike the conservatives, I don't have to make shit up to make Obama look bad.

Here's just a few of the most recent postings of mine on Obama…
[more breaking due to link limit...]

http://patrick.net/?p=1222738&c=942201#comment-942201
http://patrick.net/?p=1222671&c=942191#comment-942191
http://patrick.net/?p=1222671&c=941719#comment-941719
http://patrick.net/?p=1222671&c=941610#comment-941610
http://patrick.net/?p=1221964&c=936418#comment-936418

http://patrick.net/?p=1221781&c=935592#comment-935592
http://patrick.net/?p=1221718&c=934916#comment-934916
http://patrick.net/?p=1221781&c=934493#comment-934493
http://patrick.net/?p=1221528&c=931673#comment-931673
http://patrick.net/comments.php?a=8267

http://patrick.net/?p=1221080&c=926424#comment-926424
http://patrick.net/comments.php?a=8267
http://patrick.net/?p=1220661&c=921770#comment-921770
http://patrick.net/?p=1220743&c=921760#comment-921760

If I were any more vocal against Obama, he'd kill my ass with a drone strike.

But hey, don't let four years of Obama bashing ruin your delusion that I'm an Obama fan boy. It's not like facts ever get in the way of your opinions.

Evidently the link limit is 5, not 10, as the webserver states.

Reality says

I already pointed out the vacuous nature of your so-called "form." In the latest exercise of your "form" you assumed the the political leaning of a city must reflect the top university there; that is obviously false. The very top example you gave was MIT in Cambridge, when MIT engineers are about the only registered Republicans (besides some Harvard Republicans) in a city that is 12:1 in registered D to R ratio.

Jesus fucking Christ...

My brother graduated from MIT as an engineering major. I've spent many an hour interacting with MIT engineers. If you think they are conservative or Republicans, you are completely fucking ignorant. It's laughably ridiculous.

Reality says

It simply wrong to bifurcate the society into liberals vs. conservatives, and ascribe all that is good and holy to one, and evil to the other.

Now that is a Straw Man argument.

Dan8267 says

I love it when people presume they know what goes on in my mind. It demonstrates that a simple mind will always see simplicity in a complex system.

I dont presume. I wrote my comment based on what you wrote. Liberals smart, conservatives dumb... Liberals = smart engineers that go to top prestigious schools, conservatives = dumb religious zealots.... that is essentially what you wrote. am I wrong?

Dan8267 says

Between 30% and 80% of religious conservative Americans believe that

- Creationism, not evolution, explains how life became what we see

- The sun revolves around the Earth

- Obama is a Muslim

- Witchcraft is real

- Demonic possessions are real

- Prayer can cure diseases

Try finding an atheist who believes any of the above crap.

Again, why do you automatically define the conservative party as religious zealots? This was the entire point I was trying to make. BTW, atheist by definition wouldnt believe any of the above... so whats your point? haha

Dan8267 says

Meccos says

The fact of the matter is that our politicians regardless of what side of the aisle they sit, are full of dumb, dishonest, irrational people

And no one would argue with that. However, based on ample empirical evidence, today's Republicans in Congress are dumber than their Democratic counterparts. Do I really need to quote Todd Akin or Ted Stevens? And the median Republican voter is dumber than the median Democratic voter, and given the "news" they listen to, that's not surprising…

Again here u go... liberals good, conservatives bad.

BTW if you want to talk about stupid voters.. here you go

http://www.youtube.com/embed/mm1KOBMg1Y8

Dan8267 says

Meccos says

ALthough you claim to be a "smart" engineer.... based on your previous comments and generalizations I find you all but smart and rather moronic.

I'm sorry, you must have me mistaken with someone who gives a damn about your opinion.

oh im sure you care just a little at least.

Dan8267 says

Evidently the link limit is 5, not 10, as the webserver states.

man how much time did you waste looking for all these links... you realize i wont read any of them

Meccos says

Again here u go... liberals good, conservatives bad.

BTW if you want to talk about stupid voters.. here you go

And no Obama supporter is a liberal. At best a liberal will vote against Obama's opponent because Obama is the lesser or the two evils. That's hardly support.

Oh, and none of those voters look like MIT engineers.

Meccos says

Dan8267 says

Evidently the link limit is 5, not 10, as the webserver states.

man how much time did you waste looking for all these links... you realize i wont read any of them

None at all. Just click on the user comment link, then right-click, repaginate unlimited, and control+F Obama [ENTER]. You see, some of us actually know how to use computers.

As for you not reading the links. That is neither surprising nor the point. The point is you demonstrated that you are a willfully ignorant ass by stating that you won't read them. This illustrates to everyone reading this thread why your opinions don't count for shit.

Dan8267 says

Meccos says

Again here u go... liberals good, conservatives bad.

BTW if you want to talk about stupid voters.. here you go

And no Obama supporter is a liberal. At best a liberal will vote against Obama's opponent because Obama is the lesser or the two evils. That's hardly support.

You are right.. no TRUE liberal would support Obama... nor any current democrat nor repub. With that said, your comments above regarding "liberals" speak volumes against what you say here.

Dan8267 says

Oh, and none of those voters look like MIT engineers.

no but they were democrats though...

Dan8267 says

As for you not reading the links. That is neither surprising nor the point. The point is you demonstrated that you are a willfully ignorant ass by stating that you won't read them. This illustrates to everyone reading this thread why your opinions don't count for shit.

No, its just that you are not worth that much of my time.... 30 mins is all I can offer you. good night!

zzyzzx says

Blacks admit to electing stupid people.

How often do whites admit to doing the same thing?

zzyzzx says

If you think engineers tend to be liberals, you obviously don't know any. Meaning maybe not even one.

BS. Actually, I have known quite a few, and they are more likely to be democrats. I won't say liberal, because for example 90% of democrats in fed govt and Obama for that matter, are to the right of where Nixon and Reagan were.

Only dimbulbs who are overly affected by the right wing entertainment complex and their own tribal or team mentality can't see how far to the right todays republicans are.

Engineers who are republicans tend to be really quiet about it. Because they know very many people who are more intelligent than them who are "liberal." They don't want to have a reputation for being a dummy, so they have learned it's best to keep their opinions to themself.

Besides, on some level they also know that their opinions are illogical and based on emotion and irrational thinking. So not only do they not want intelligent friends and colleagues to know, the truth is they do not even themselves want to be reminded of the total lack of logic behind their beliefs.

re: "Blacks admit to electing stupid people"

We all elect stupid people, so, ummm....?

The poster wth the Marion Barry quote is interesting. If Bush had said that, it wouldn't even make the list of the stupidist (or stupidist sounding)
things he said.

All those uber smart leftists that are constantly ragging on conservatives, sound very racist to me. The most conservative sects of american society are blacks and hispanics. Makes me wonder if the reason that the left repeats the meme that conservatives are stupid, is because they think non whites are inherently stupid.

Also, I always hear about how bad of a president bush and obama are/were. Rarely, if ever, do people criticize "the first black president", when he and his admin laid plenty the groundwork for the mess we find ourselves in today.

When "everyone knows" something, its usually wrong. The economy was so good in the 90s that nobody bothers to criticize the clinton years, but truth is, he was just as bad a pres if not worse

errc says

All those uber smart leftists that are constantly ragging on conservatives, sound very racist to me. The most conservative sects of american society are blacks and hispanics. Makes me wonder if the reason that the left repeats the meme that conservatives are stupid, is because they think non whites are inherently stupid.

Obligatory:

Meccos says

No, its just that you are not worth that much of my time.... 30 mins is all I can offer you. good night!

Whereas when I respond to you it's not for your sake but so that all others don't fall into the mistake of listening to a fool.

Dan8267 says

#8 Purdue University

West Lafayette, IN

Conservative

As an alum, I have to point out that Purdue isn't THAT conservative. By Bay Area standards it is, but for Indiana its moderate to left wing. Obama's campaign did a lot of organizing among Purdue students in 2008 and that may have been decisive in turning the state blue for the first (and probably last) time in my lifetime

bdrasin says

As an alum, I have to point out that Purdue isn't THAT conservative

Fair enough. I wanted to err on the side of overestimating the conservative nature of the top engineering schools to demonstrate that most engineers are liberals.