patrick.net

Marcus, we're not talking about Mexicans, who are Catholic and Hispanic and thus already heavily Europeanized. The other part of Mexican heritage would be Native American ancestry. I have never heard of a Terrorist killing in the name of the Great Spirit.

What is happening here WAS engineered, first to win the Cold War by offering third worlders education and jobs in the US (so they then would be ambassadors for Capitalism back home) - same reason "Free Trade" policy happened, and then later business expanded the policy as it wanted to reduce wages paid to the middle class ("Insourcing"). The same logic compels them to distort the reality of the STEM "Shortage" which is actually a Glut, and you can prove this by comparing wages from the 70s and 80s to that of today in STEM careers. If there was a true shortage, real wages would rise because businesses would be forced to compete for labor, and they haven't.

Americans strongly oppose benefits for immigrants and importing high numbers of immigrants, yet the Government Elites insist on maintaining the policy. A plurality of Democrats also supports immigration restriction, and this is also true in Europe where most of the population regardless of political stripe (except for the ultra pink haired multicult left) also supports immigration restriction.

Elites own the means of production and want cheap labor to run it. Not expensive middle class labor.

Read Jared Diamond's Collapse. Elites happily take their societies over the brink in order to maintain their lifestyle. Quintilius Varus treated Arminius like a son, giving him support and acting as a surrogate father/patron to the German for most of his career. He was rewarded with a stab in the back.

Large numbers of immigrants bring their prejudices with them, and don't give them up, since they consider it "maintaining their cultural identity":

Sweden’s third largest city, Malmö, is often mentioned as “the capital of European anti- Semitism.” The perpetrators of many physical and verbal attacks there are all, or almost all, Muslims. A record number of complaints about hate crimes in this city in 2010 and 2011 did not lead to any convictions.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Muslim-anti-Semitism-in-Western-Europe

yes, it's the Jerusalem Post - but the article does correctly point out that what few studies have been done show that the rise in Anti-Semitism in Europe is largely from the Muslim population.

thunderlips11 says

What is happening here WAS engineered, first to win the Cold War by offering third worlders education and jobs in the US (so they then would be ambassadors for Capitalism back home)

Then how do you explain all the waves of immigrants before the cold war ?

This country is just a couple hundred years old, and is inhabited entirely by immigrants. It is and always has been the definition of this country.

So what you're really saying, is that when we didn't drastically redefine it 60 years ago, that was engineered, for these diabolical reasons.

Okay. Got it.

marcus says

Then how do you explain the waves of immigrants before the cold war ?

Immigration was halted during the Great Depression (against objections by Industry, btw) and did not resume until about 1970.

Google "Operation Wetback" for how FDR, yes, that FDR, without surveillance cameras, or border walls or drones, removed all foreign guest workers, legal and illegal, from the USA.

marcus says

This country is just a couple hundred years old, and is inhabited entirely by immigrants. It is and always has been the definition of this country.

Yep. But the greatest expansion of the Middle Class happened at a time when immigration was almost impossible - 1945 to about 1970. The halt in the growth and wealth of the middle class corresponds with the most aggressive immigration policy in US history - more open than it was in the early 20th Century.

I had no idea.

Back to Sweden, Marcus.

Why is the ultragenerous, militantly anti-racist, and world-renowned tolerant Swedes having a problem with not all immigrants, but just those from East Africa and the Middle East?

Nobody is identifying Japanese, Jews, Russians, Poles, Hindu Indians, etc. rioting in Sweden, and it has plenty of them.

thunderlips11 says

Sweden has long been heralded as a model of egalitarianism and fairness.

I had always heard this, yet, found something very different described in the Stieg Larsson (Sweden) and Jo Nesbo (Norway, not Sweden) novels. Granted these are works of fiction, but I found multiple vignettes that were hardly what I would call an egalitarian mindset. Many "scenes" were downright misogynistic and offensive. I remember thinking that it would really suck to be a woman living in Scandinavia.

thunderlips11 says

"Also, in Sweden you cannot hit your children to discipline them..."

Note to self.... If I travel with my kids to Sweden, bring Wild Kingdom tranquilizer gun (I'm not sure if I'd use it on them or me!).

turtledove says

novels...are works of fiction....

Exactly. Scandinavian countries have a very high standard of living, and more opportunities for women than almost any other region. Every Scandinavian country has had at least one female prime minister, these countries tend to have generous maternity benefits, etc. (BTW, Iceland's first female prime minister was also a lesbian in a civil union; they became one of the first same-sex couples married in Iceland.) If a male novelist wrote some misogynistic scenes, those might reflect his fears of sex discrimination tilting against men. It is ironic that some of these countries allow in so many Muslim fanatic immigrants, who hate everything about them.

Meanwhile, back in Lebanon, which used to be a peaceful Christian country, Hezzbollah are finally allowing educational opportunities for Muslim girls - sort of.

turtledove says

thunderlips11 says

Sweden has long been heralded as a model of egalitarianism and fairness.

I had always heard this, yet, found something very different described in the Stieg Larsson (Sweden) and Jo Nesbo (Norway, not Sweden) novels. Granted these are works of fiction, but I found multiple vignettes that were hardly what I would call an egalitarian mindset. Many "scenes" were downright misogynistic and offensive. I remember thinking that it would really suck to be a woman living in Scandinavia.

thunderlips11 says

"Also, in Sweden you cannot hit your children to discipline them..."

Note to self.... If I travel with my kids to Sweden, bring Wild Kingdom tranquilizer gun (I'm not sure if I'd use it on them or me!).

No need. Sweden is one of the most kid friendly places you can go. Many resteraunts have playstructures or activities to keep kids happy. Communication is no problem, most everyone under 50 speaks English, the road system is easy to understand (unlike France or Italy), and most people are very friendly provided you are not a jerk.

As for the Stieg Larsson view of Sweden there is always a dark side to any culture. I can't say Sweden does not have its share of problems but my experiences there have always been good.

http://www.thelocal.se/4883/20060913/

"... Salary differences between men and women, while less pronounced than in most countries, still exist in Sweden, where women earn on average 83 percent of what men make doing the same job, Borgström tells AFP.

While women are well represented in Swedish politics - half of the cabinet posts in the current Social Democratic government are held by women - there are only five women CEOs out of the 291 companies registered on the Stockholm stock exchange.

"In reality ... things are going backwards, in the job market especially, but also in society in general. We see sexism spreading ... pornography, prostitution and trafficking are increasing, and the numbers of cases of women being beaten by men are rising," says Schyman."

curious2 says

If a male novelist wrote some misogynistic scenes, those might reflect his fears of sex discrimination tilting against men.

Perhaps. But popular culture isn't without any insight into the minds of those who create it. Must the smoke indicate fire? I've never lived there, so I can't speak with any authority.... I just found it shocking that, in a realistic fiction novel, Larsson would characterize so many men in such a way. It made me wonder how the reality might differ from the stereotype of Swedish equality. How much is all this affected by immigration? Obviously, that can't be ignored, either.

"... The Swedish title “M’n som hatar kvinnor” (“Men Who Hate Women”) reveals Larsson’s opinion about how women are treated in the country, long considered a model of equality between the sexes...."

"... Larsson witnessed a gang rape at an early age that affected him profoundly and might have influenced not only the character of Lisbeth, but her rape as well...."

http://www.pennlive.com/editorials/index.ssf/2011/12/sweden_in_different_light_auth.html

New Renter says

As for the Stieg Larsson view of Sweden there is always a dark side to any culture. I can't say Sweden does not have its share of problems but my experiences there have always been good.

I wish I had the chance to go there while I was living in that neck of the woods. You know, the job really got in our way of travelling! I can't complain too much. We did get to see a lot of amazing places.

turtledove says

the numbers of cases of women being beaten by men are rising," says Schyman."

The article doesn't mention who the perpetrators are, but I can't help wondering if it might have something to do with the OP, as in Muslim immigrants bringing their own 'cultural heritage' with them. An act of violence that occurs in Sweden isn't necessarily perpetrated by a Swede. There are 9 million Swedes though, so even a 1-in-a-million story would happen nine times.

Dunno why people cite porn as evidence of sexism, but it reminded me of this:

Personally I'm not into gay porn, but I have to note that my traffic increases whenever gay porn gets mentioned on my site, so OK: gay porn gay porn gay porn

MsBennet says

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Just thought I help a little.

Maybe Sweden needs more Calvin Klein ads.

New Renter says

No need. Sweden is one of the most kid friendly places you can go. Many resteraunts have playstructures or activities to keep kids happy. Communication is no problem, most everyone under 50 speaks English, the road system is easy to understand (unlike France or Italy), and most people are very friendly provided you are not a jerk.

As for the Stieg Larsson view of Sweden there is always a dark side to any culture. I can't say Sweden does not have its share of problems but my experiences there have always been good.

Just don't eat the meatballs.

thunderlips11 says

Immigration was halted during the Great Depression (against objections by Industry, btw) and did not resume until about 1970.

That must be why all those Brits, Europeans and Jews coming to the US right after WWII. Did WWII take place in 1969?

Google "Operation Wetback" for how FDR, yes, that FDR, without surveillance cameras, or border walls or drones, removed all foreign guest workers, legal and illegal, from the USA.

Was FDR working his magic from Heaven or Hell 9 years after his death in early 1945?

thunderlips11 says

Yep. But the greatest expansion of the Middle Class happened at a time when immigration was almost impossible - 1945 to about 1970. The halt in the growth and wealth of the middle class corresponds with the most aggressive immigration policy in US history - more open than it was in the early 20th Century.

It's preposterous to think immigration was halted from 1945 to 1970. All those Holocaust survivors did not wait till 1970 to come to the US, nor did the millions of Brits and Europeans who either worked for the US military/government or married US military personnel due to war time romance. They call it post-war baby-boom for a reason: a lot of new people showed up!

The post-war high standards of living in the US was due to a very simple reason: productivity gains as production switched from war making to consumer goods; the rest of the world was in shambles so they had different needs for the time being (e.g. gasoline would be cheap if the rest of the world were on bicycles).

Immigration should be practical. If you as a country need people-fine. If not, then stop it. But our politicians have long since stopped working for the people. Instead of being public servants, they are corporate servants.

lostand confused says

Immigration should be practical. If you as a country need people-fine. If not, then stop it. But our politicians have long since stopped working for the people. Instead of being public servants, they are corporate servants.

oh.. the Immigration act of 1965 had very little to do with corporations and everything to do with the Kennedy's idea of Americans. So Teddy Kennedy years later, had many regrets afterwards how it badly failed.

turtledove says

I remember thinking that it would really suck to be a woman living in Scandinavia.

TD, by any objective measure, women in Scandinavia are far more 'advanced' than the US. Look at the numbers of females in Parliament; it's about half of the seats are held by women. Gro Harlem Brundtland was Prime Minister of Norway back in 1981 and again several times more in the past decades.

More about Swedish equality:
http://www.sweden.se/eng/Home/Society/Equality/Facts/Gender-equality-in-Sweden/

Violence against women IS rising, but just like anti-semitism generally in Europe, it seems to be mostly coming from the "New Swedes" - immigrants - not the "Old Swedes".Reality says

It's preposterous to think immigration was halted from 1945 to 1970. All those Holocaust survivors did not wait till 1970 to come to the US, nor did the millions of Brits and Europeans who either worked for the US military/government or married US military personnel due to war time romance. They call it post-war baby-boom for a reason: a lot of new people showed up!

It's a baby boom because people had babies, esp. returning servicemen, not because adults showed up.

Reality, here are some numbers.

This one from MIT's International Studies Dept.

http://web.mit.edu/cis/fpi_immigration.html

As you can see, my assertion that immigration was very restrictive - relative to before the Depression and Today, between the 30s and 70s - shows in the numbers.

In America too, you can't spank your children or child services will take them away while putting financial penalties on the parents.

And I see how that causes certain children to grow up to become total delinquents. We have those around the neighborhood, mostly mexicans and the blacks though, but some whites too. Government should have stayed out of child upbringing, we as a nation went overboard with protecting children from their own parents.

curious2 says

The article doesn't mention who the perpetrators are, but I can't help wondering if it might have something to do with the OP, as in Muslim immigrants bringing their own 'cultural heritage' with them. An act of violence that occurs in Sweden isn't necessarily perpetrated by a Swede.

Or Australians:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assange_v_Swedish_Prosecution_Authority

When people migrate to other countries it usually because there is something better abroad in living standards and safety.

This is reasonable - leave to better yourself and family. However, its not a panacea.

Lets evaluate this: if the recieving country gets people with un-equal education, they cant assimilate easily. If the recieving country gives away free money for housing, food, it can amplify the entitlement while attenuating the opportunities.

The only way one family should come into another place is to agree to education, or agree to education, have a work ethic or skill and make a contract that you will take history and getting to know you culture classes.

When I started the University they had a school culture and immersion class. I was shocked at how this was a multiple benefit to culture, focus, feeling of contribution, ease of loneliness, and feeling of inclusiveness - lacking this you can get anarchy and crime easily.

So if the gaining country offers too many freebies without education and cultural training, then its an incubator for crime.

I thought Islam was a religion of peace? I guess not in Sweden..

FortWayne says

In America too, you can't spank your children or child services will take them away while putting financial penalties on the parents.

I am not sure if you are just unaware of US law on this topic, or if what you call a "spanking" others would call a "savage beating."

Every state in the union allows parents to spank their children. Hell, even in the west coast freak kingdom parents can spank their kids until their butts are red and sore, they just can spank to the point of "serious physical injury", as per WELFARE AND INSTITUTIONS CODE SECTION 300-304.7.

Anyway, I am sure that Sweden's anti-spanking policy is to blame for the recent riots by immigrant youth because the native Swedes who are also not spanked have been rioting out-of-control for decades, but that just does not make the news...yeah, that must be it...

I am very encouraged to see fellow liberal people realizing that muslim culture is in many ways incompatible with western liberal values. It is my hope that as time goes by that more liberal people will realize this. It has been my observation that conservatives vote against their economic self interests by supporting republicans while liberals harm their self interest by either sympathizing with the "plight" of muslims and/or underestimating the dangers that their cultural values pose.

dublin hillz says

I am very encouraged to see fellow liberal people realizing that muslim culture is in many ways incompatible with western liberal values. It is my hope that as time goes by that more liberal people will realize this. It has been my observation that conservatives vote against their economic self interests by supporting republicans while liberals harm their self interest by either sympathizing with the "plight" of muslims and/or underestimating the dangers that their cultural values pose.

How is such "Muslim culture" any less compatible than ultra-conservative Christian culture?

How is such "Muslim culture" any less compatible than ultra-conservative Christian culture?
Wow? New Renter, try practicing some religion other than Muslim in the middle east and you'll find out.
FYI, The middle east is 99-100% Muslim.

thunderlips11 says

As you can see, my assertion that immigration was very restrictive - relative to before the Depression and Today, between the 30s and 70s - shows in the numbers.

Your thesis was that restrictive immigration policy correlated to economic prosperity. That is simply not born out by the charts you provided. What kind of economic prosperity existed during the decade of 1931-1940, the decade with the least immigration? They call it the decade of Great Depression for a reason! There wasn't much economic prosperity to speak of during the decade of 1941-1950, the decade with the second lowest immigration, half of which was taken up by the most destructive war in human history.

What the charts do show is that the economic prosperity in the decades of the 1951-60, 1981-90, 1991-2000 all corresponded to the fastest growth in immigration rate (vis the previous decade).

carrieon says

How is such "Muslim culture" any less compatible than ultra-conservative Christian culture?

Wow? New Renter, try practicing some religion other than Muslim in the middle east and you'll find out.

FYI, The middle east is 99-100% Muslim.

Sure if you go move to the bible belt and practice being a gay jew - or worse, an atheist.

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

Sweden needs POWER BAPTISM. Ministers in fire trucks hosing down the heathens and womping them with a powerful baptism.

I think you can still get that on VHS.

New Renter says

dublin hillz says

I am very encouraged to see fellow liberal people realizing that muslim culture is in many ways incompatible with western liberal values. It is my hope that as time goes by that more liberal people will realize this. It has been my observation that conservatives vote against their economic self interests by supporting republicans while liberals harm their self interest by either sympathizing with the "plight" of muslims and/or underestimating the dangers that their cultural values pose.

How is such "Muslim culture" any less compatible than ultra-conservative Christian culture?

Muslim culture in some ways is consistent with Nietzsche's beliefs about creditor/debtor relationships. The idea being that humans are naturally cruel so if someone is offended they have a natural right to revenge via killings, mutilations, etc to "balance" the creditor/debtor dynamic. In Christinaity, that impulse has been largely repressed and consequently is manifested through the authority figures attempting to torment the non conformists through guilt. The punishment in muslim cultrure is rooted in Freud's theory of "reality anxiety" which is based upon idea that there are things that really need to be feared in the environment such as being placed in tiger's grotto while Christian dynamic reflects "moral anxiety" which is an off-shoot of the reality anxiety yet if you really think about it is irrational. It is for that reason that I consider islam to be much more dangerous that american bible belt.

dublin hillz says

I am very encouraged to see fellow liberal people realizing that muslim culture is in many ways incompatible with western liberal values.

Religion is incompatible with western liberal values and should not be protected or tolerated, and that includes Christianity. Just take a look at the Christian right in this country.

Western liberal values are based on rationality, equality under law for all, elimination of the religion from secular government, and the principle that everyone can do what they please as long as they aren't violating other people's rights.

These values are all incompatible with any religion. Let's go over them one by one.

1. Rationality

All religions are based on superstition that is easily disproved by rational thought and evidence. The very concept of faith, belief without proof or evidence, is fundamentally irrational. A rational government cannot be influenced by the irrationality of religious beliefs and remain rational.

2. Equality under law for all

All common religions are hierarchies in which those who are in power are not questionable by divine doctrine. These "leaders" form a caste system in which the higher levels of the religion are granted privileges and powers that the commoners are not. Furthermore, this entire system lacks any transparency or accountability. Such a system will never tolerate equality under law for all.

Even the few, if any, religions that do not have any kind of priest or leader will still have superstitious practices that reinforce their religious beliefs at the expense of liberty and equality. Laws prohibiting activities that do not infringe upon the rights of others does discriminate against those who enjoy such activities and makes such persons unequal under the law. For example, laws prohibiting homosexual behavior, consumption of alcohol, or use of profanity.

3. Elimination of the religion from secular government

The separation of church and state is simply another way of saying that religion must not affect government policy or daily business. Religions empirically have always sought to influence government as much as possible, and if successful, to take over government all together. It is self-evident that this behavior is incompatible with any secular government.

4. The principle that everyone can do what they please as long as they aren't violating other people's rights

All religions make arbitrary prohibitions on behaviors that have nothing to do with protecting other people's rights. For example, prohibiting homosexual acts, premarital sex, and pretty much anything involving sex.

As you should be able to see by now, it is religion, not any particular religion or family of religions, that is incompatible with western philosophy. Yes some religions are worse than others at a given time period, and some families of religions like Islam have more of these worse religions than other families of religions like Christianity or Judaism, but ultimately that does not matter. It is religion itself that is the problem. The solution isn't to "moderate" the worse religions but to get rid of the problem all together.

The only reason the founding fathers put "freedom of religion" in the Constitution is that a few generations before the American revolution, the Catholics and Anglicans were killing each other like crazy, and they wanted to prevent such religious violence in the new republic. However, this is not a good reason for tolerating religion socially, politically, or financially.

As a society, we should
1. Stop treating religion as something special and unquestionable out of "respect" for it.
2. Stop giving tax breaks or tax-free status to religions.
3. Stop making exceptions to the law for religion. If it's illegal to serve children wine, then that law applies to Communion as well. If it's illegal to wear masks in public, that law applies to Islam as well.
4. Vote out any politician that mentions god, Jesus, or anything religious in his speeches.
5. Vote out any politician that infringes upon our liberties in the name of his religion.
6. Stop watching any channel that promotes bullshit "War on Christmas", "War on Easter" religious propaganda.

I disagree with that Dan. Christianity is fine, it's the Muslims who are coming here to live an American life, who instead of trying to blend into our culture create their own subculture based on their religion of hatred and extremism. Not all of them, but significant number of them are a problem.

Reality says

What the charts do show is that the economic prosperity in the decades of the 1951-60, 1981-90, 1991-2000 all corresponded to the fastest growth in immigration rate (vis the previous decade).

What economic prosperity? Not for the middle class.

We don't need immigrants, because we have massively underutilized human resources born right here in the USA:

Equipped with pricey degrees and weighed down by loans that may take decades to repay, nearly 300,000 Americans graduate from college, only to find themselves working minimum-wage jobs that can barely pay for rent.

College-educated Americans are being thrust into poverty while increasingly finding that their degrees have no value in the work force. About 280,000 Americans with bachelor’s degrees and 37,000 with advanced degrees were working minimum-wage jobs in 2012, the Labor Department reports. The number of college-educated Americans working such jobs has risen 70 percent in the past 10 years. It is also double the number who worked minimum-wage jobs before the Great Recession.

In 2002, college graduates made up 13 percent of all hourly workers. In 2012, they made up 17.8 percent.

Overall, college grads typically earn more than their non-educated counterparts, but this gap is growing smaller as more Americans are finding themselves financially insecure. Nearly 50 percent of college graduates from the class of 2010 are now working jobs that don’t require a bachelor’s degree, while 38 percent of these graduates are working jobs that don’t even require a high school diploma, according to the Center for College Affordability and Productivity.

Research conducted by the National Bureau of Economic Research found that the economy’s decline has largely pushed low-skilled labor workers out of the job market completely, while providing highly educated Americans with minimum wage jobs.

http://rt.com/usa/college-graduates-minimum-wage-174/

We have plenty of Americans who are underutilized in employment:

The Black American Leadership Conference this morning issued an open letter calling on members of Congress to oppose the current immigration proposal, arguing increased competition for low-skill jobs would hurt Americans, particularly black Americans, struggling to find work.

"Given the fact that more than 13% of all blacks are unemployed - nearly double that of the national average, it is our position that each Member of Congress must consider the disastrous effects that Senate Bill 744 would have on low skill workers of all races, while paying particular attention to the potential harm to African Americans," reads the open letter.

Immigrants are Union-busters, why business loves 'em and landless rural poor whites and blacks (the people who used to have good jobs in the formerly unionized Meatpacking plants) hate 'em.:

Middle Class Woes since the 80s, despite healthy profits and GDP growth:

Now, what is the evidence that massive, all time record high immigration benefits the Bottom 3/5th of the population, ie the Majority?

Dan8267 says

As a society, we should

1. Stop treating religion as something special and unquestionable out of "respect" for it.

2. Stop giving tax breaks or tax-free status to religions.

3. Stop making exceptions to the law for religion. If it's illegal to serve children wine, then that law applies to Communion as well. If it's illegal to wear masks in public, that law applies to Islam as well.

4. Vote out any politician that mentions god, Jesus, or anything religious in his speeches.

5. Vote out any politician that infringes upon our liberties in the name of his religion.

6. Stop watching any channel that promotes bullshit "War on Christmas", "War on Easter" religious propaganda.

There's a war on Easter now, or is that humorous hyperbole?

Oh Jesus Christ, you're not kidding. http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/03/29/foxs-week-long-war-on-easter/193352

And Right on with #2, like Jefferson suggested. There is no need for religious groups not to pay taxes and at the very least they should be forced to incorporate as non-profit organization that should report expenditures and make them public. At the least they should pay full property taxes.

Enough Oilsheens, Hinns, and Warrens living in mansions and getting it all tax free.

FortWayne says

I disagree with that Dan. Christianity is fine, it's the Muslims who are coming here to live an American life, who instead of trying to blend into our culture create their own subculture based on their religion of hatred and extremism. Not all of them, but significant number of them are a problem.

Exactly how is Islamic religious intrusion different from Christian religious intrusion? Both families of religions are bad for making laws. None of the Christian or Islamic religions should be the basis of policy. Yet all those religions try to get government to impose their wills onto other people including those who are not members of their religion.

So, blue laws are OK, but Sharia Laws aren't? They're the same thing. Bad laws based on the crappy morality of Iron Age desert dwellers. It's OK to hang the Ten Commandments in a courtroom, but don't install any mop sinks lest they be mistaken for Islamic foot showers. If we don't allow a nativity scene on public property like city hall, it's a War on Christmas. But if we allow an Islamic religious display on city hall, it's Sharia intrusion?

Everything that conservative Christians complain about Islam interfering with the state is exactly what we atheists and secularists have complained about Christianity interfering with the state. It seems like Christians have no problem with the violation of separation of church and state until it was somebody else's religion that was doing the violating.

It's damn hard for me to have sympathy for the mid-West's fear of Sharia Law when those bastards have been advocating the Christian equivalent of Sharia Law for the past two hundred years. Part of me wishes that those Christians are forced to live under an Islamic theocracy for a few decades so that they finally can understand why we secular Americans don't want to live under a Christian theocracy.

By the way, the only reason American and Western Christianity isn't as bad as Middle East Islam today is that secularists, rationalists, and atheists like me have dragged Western Civilization out of the Dark Ages despite violent resistance from the Christian mainstream. And we're still dragging Christian asses into the modern, enlightened age. Just look at the whole marriage equality debate.

thunderlips11 says

There's a war on Easter now, or is that humorous hyperbole?

Oh Jesus Christ, you're not kidding. http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/03/29/foxs-week-long-war-on-easter/193352

Most things one hears about the right are both utterly ridiculous and completely true.

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

Liberals would have crucified Jesus and then hid the good news of the salvation!

Crucifixion and liberalism are mutually exclusive

Dan8267 says

thunderlips11 says

There's a war on Easter now, or is that humorous hyperbole?

Oh Jesus Christ, you're not kidding. http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/03/29/foxs-week-long-war-on-easter/193352

Most things one hears about the right are both utterly ridiculous and completely true.

It may be Hyperbole, but it's utterly ridiculous to demand from institutions that they abolish the celebration of traditional holidays, not put up x-mas trees or don't have the baby jesus crib play for kids just because somebody could feel offended as long as these activities are not a mandated part of he curriculum. These are optional activities and anybody is free to choose to join them or go party elsewhere instead.

It is ridiculous that in the name of "equality" liberals today want to filter out Christianity from our culture.

thunderlips11 says

Reality says

What the charts do show is that the economic prosperity in the decades of the 1951-60, 1981-90, 1991-2000 all corresponded to the fastest growth in immigration rate (vis the previous decade).

What economic prosperity? Not for the middle class.

First of all, it should be noted that you have entirely abandoned your original thesis (prosperity correlating to low immigration) by not answering my point that the decades of lowest immigration were decades of misery not prosperity.

Now to answer your current question: the decade of 1951-60 saw very real economic prosperity, and it was a period of rapidly growing immigration rate compared to the previous decade. Even your own chart shows that the decade of 1951-60 saw the median income growth outpaced per capita GDP growth.

Median income growth rate start to fall behind per capita GDP growth rate after the early 1970's (as clearly shown in your chart) for a very simple reason: that's when the US Dollar became pure fiat! The money manipulators benefit their own friends the most, and the middle class are not in the circle. The redistributive effect from the middle class to the rich by the fiat money system is especially pronounced during economic down turns. That's why even in your own chart, the mid-80's and mid-90's periods of economic prosperity actually the saw the median income growth rate (1st order derivative of the chart line) more or less keeping pace with the per capita GDP growth. It's during the down turns when the median income falls way behind the per capita GDP . . . thanks to central bank bailouts and government spending handouts to the rich!

mell says

It may be Hyperbole, but it's utterly ridiculous to demand from institutions that they abolish the celebration of traditional holidays, not put up x-mas trees or don't have the baby jesus crib play for kids just because somebody could feel offended as long as these activities are not a mandated part of he curriculum. These are optional activities and anybody is free to choose to join them or go party elsewhere instead.

No one has ever demanded that individual citizens, churches, or non-governmental institutions abolish the celebration of religious holidays or not display their religious symbols, most of which, by the way, are pagan.

What is utterly ridiculous is using tax payer money for religious displays and placing those displays in government buildings. For example, it is every bit as wrong to have the Ten Commandments in a courthouse as it is to have Sharia Law in a courthouse and for the exact same reasons.

If city hall went from this

to this

I bet you'd be up in arms.

Oh, and how tolerant would you be if the public schools had optional, not mandatory, Satanic rituals and witchcraft clubs? You know, ones in which anybody is free to choose to join them or go party elsewhere instead.

Whenever you want to know if something Christian is acceptable in a situation, simply replace "Christian" with "Satanic". The answer is the same. If it's not OK for Satan worshipers, it's not OK for Jesus worshipers. That's equal religious freedom.